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Is Littlefinger Robert Arryn's father?


Lord Fowler

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Hello all,

I'm new to being a member on these boards, but I'll admit that I've been reading them for awhile. I searched through the forums to see if this topic has come up already, but I did not see it. If this is a topic that is already ongoing, please let me know!

I had a thought the other day that perhaps Littlefinger is actually Robert Arryn's father. This is my thought process:

1. Lysa is obviously in love with Littlefinger. This can seen at the end of ASoS through her jealousy of Sansa and her admission that she killed Jon Arryn at Littlefinger's behest.

2. We know that Lysa and Littlefinger slept together before he was sent away for the duel with Brandon Stark.

3. I suspect the Lord Hoster Tully made Lysa get rid of a baby she was carrying prior to her marriage to Jon Arryn. Littlefinger was the most likely candidate for the father of this baby. This explains why on his death bed Lord Tully continually says the word "Tansy." We later learn that Tansy tea is used to get rid of unwanted pregnancies during a discussion between Tormund and Jon Snow. Lord Hoster Tully's guilt would then relate to forcing his daughter to end this pregnancy in order to secure the marriage alliance with Jon Arryn.

4. We know that Littlefinger was likely in Kings Landing at the time Robert was conceived. At the request of Lysa, Jon Arryn brought Littlefinger to court for a minor appointment, which he excelled at, eventually gaining the post of Master of Coin.

5. We also know that Lysa had great difficulty conceiving a child with Jon Arryn and that she experienced several miscarriages. We also know that she had knowledge of Tansy Tea to end unwanted pregnancies.

Is it possible that these miscarriages were deliberate on the part of Lysa so that she could carry the child of the man she truly loved, Littlefinger?

One troubling detail for me is the whole "the seed is strong" issue. Lysa mistakes Jon Arryn's dying words explaining Cersei and Jamie's incest as an endorsement of Robert Arryn as a strong heir.

Thoughts?

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This is interesting. I think we'd need some evidence regarding Littlefinger's manner around Robert. I remember one scene in particular where Sweetrobin had a case of the shakes and Littlefinger looked at him with disgust, but that could be interpreted in many different ways, but one of the ways could be 'How can this boy be of my loins?'

It would be an interesting development and if true, Littlefinger's machinations to kill him make him that much more devious and, well adds a whole new level of callous to Littlefinger(haha, get it?)

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You forgot another hint: When Lysa insists on marrying Littlefinger, she says that she is finally sick of having only clandestine sex with him and that she will be loud this time. So, they quite clearly were lovers at a time when it had to be kept secret. Personally, I'm not sure if Littlefinger is Robert Arryn's father, or if made Lysa abort THEIR children so she would only give birth to Arryn's. Or maybe they (either Lysa as an accomplice or unwittingly through Littlefinger's manipulation) tried to abort him and his damaged constitution is from that attempt.

Personally, giving Lysa's obvious insane attachment to her children and her sadness about the dead babies, I'd say that she knew nothing and was not involved. I'd put it all down to Littlefinger covering his tracks better than Jaime. And Jon Arryn simply being incapable. He had no children with his other wives, either.

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It's not impossible at all. However, knowing Littlefinger, it would seem he wasn't really interested in Lysa - perhaps just as a substitute for Catelyn - and to take such a huge risk as to commit adultery with the wife of the King's Hand... That seems a little out of character for Petyr Baelish. Perhaps he was hinting enough about a future relationship after Jon Arryn would be gone, but to actually go as far as this, I am not sure.

However, to lend credence to your theory, there is a quote I was reminded of, when their eventual marriage occurs and is consummated (from Sansa's POV).

“Sweet Petyr, I’ve missed you so, you don’t know, you can’t know. Yohn Royce has been stirring up all sorts of trouble, demanding that I call my banners and go to war. And the others all swarm around me, Hunter and Corbray and that dreadful Nestor Royce, all wanting to wed me and take my son to ward, but none of them truly love me. Only you, Petyr. I’ve dreamed of you so long.”

“And I of you, my lady.” He slid an arm around behind her and kissed her on the neck. “How soon can we be wed?”

“Now,” said Lady Lysa, sighing. “I’ve brought my own septon, and a singer, and mead for the wedding feast.”

“Here?” That did not please him. “I’d sooner wed you at the Eyrie, with your whole court in attendance.”

“Poo to my court. I have waited so long, I could not bear to wait another moment.” She put her arms around him. “I want to share your bed tonight, my sweet. I want us to make another child, a brother for Robert or a sweet little daughter.”

“I dream of that as well, sweetling. Yet there is much to be gained from a great public wedding, with all the Vale—”

“No.” She stamped a foot. “I want you now, this very night. And I must warn you, after all these years of silence and whisperings, I mean to scream when you love me. I am going to scream so loud they’ll hear me in the Eyrie!”

This suggests that not only they maintained a secret relationship, but they also have a child together - else why say we'll make another one? However, it could be one of those things GRRM does to throw people off - or on.

Edit: Liliedhe beat me to it, but at least I contributed the full quote.

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I think Lysa was talking about the very 1st baby she "lost" at Riverrun when she was still a teenager (before she was made to marry Lord Arryn). Lysa's first pregnancy was the result of her sleeping with Littlefinger at Riverrun. All of the later stillbirths, miscarriages and little Robert were Jon Arryn's children. If Robert would have been Littlefinger's son, Lysa would have told LF gladly.

I'm sure LF and Lysa had secret sex when they could in King's Landing, but not very often. Surely LF was careful not to get Lysa pregnant again? LF used sex and "love" to turn Lysa into his catspaw. Yes, Lysa is a total loon but she had a pretty unhappy life. She was constantly being used by men who claimed to love her. Is it any wonder she was so unstable at the end? First getting used by Petyr, then her father and then Petyr again. Lord Tully thought he was saving her from disgrace and shame when he had her drink the tansy tea and married her to a respectable older lord. As we all find out later, the damage was done. Lysa was ruined forever.

If Lysa and Petyr's affair would have been discovered when Lord Arryn was alive, LF would be killed or sent to the Wall and Lysa would have been shamed and sent to a septa house the rest of her life, never to see little Robert again. But the affair never came to light in King's Landing - or did it? I wonder if Varys knew about the affair and just didn't say anything? If anyone would know, it would be Varys.

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I think Lysa was talking about the very 1st baby she "lost" at Riverrun when she was still a teenager (before she was made to marry Lord Arryn). Lysa's first pregnancy was the result of her sleeping with Littlefinger at Riverrun. All of the later stillbirths, miscarriages and little Robert were Jon Arryn's children. If Robert would have been Littlefinger's son, Lysa would have told LF gladly.

I'm sure LF and Lysa had secret sex when they could in King's Landing, but not very often. Surely LF was careful not to get Lysa pregnant again? LF used sex and "love" to turn Lysa into his catspaw. Yes, Lysa is a total loon but she had a pretty unhappy life. She was constantly being used by men who claimed to love her. Is it any wonder she was so unstable at the end? First getting used by Petyr, then her father and then Petyr again. Lord Tully thought he was saving her from disgrace and shame when he had her drink the tansy tea and married her to a respectable older lord. As we all find out later, the damage was done. Lysa was ruined forever.

If Lysa and Petyr's affair would have been discovered when Lord Arryn was alive, LF would be killed or sent to the Wall and Lysa would have been shamed and sent to a septa house the rest of her life, never to see little Robert again. But the affair never came to light in King's Landing - or did it? I wonder if Varys knew about the affair and just didn't say anything? If anyone would know, it would be Varys.

I think she says it more like robert's their own child and they are going to give him a brother/sister not a half brother/sister.

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I think she says it more like robert's their own child and they are going to give him a brother/sister not a half brother/sister.

That might be the case, but I don't think Sweetrobin is Littlefinger's kid. Lady Lysa is dead so we will never know for sure. Just my 2 cents....

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As usual, George is just vague enough to leave it open to debate. Gotta love him.

Anyway, I think there is a decent possibility that SweetRobin is Petyr's, but it won't matter, and he can never be sure. If he was indeed sleeping with Fatty McCrazy when she conceived, so was Jon Arryn. They don't seem to have DNA technology in Westeros, so nobody can be sure. Although Jon was considered hale and hearty even in his late years and SR is small and sickly, more like Petyr? And the statement by Lysa could mean about anything. It could refer to the aborted baby, SR as Petyr's kid or even if it was Jon's and she knew it, it wouldn't preclude speaking the way she did. If I'm eating pizza, and you and some folks come over, I could say "Hey, let's make another pizza". It doesn't imply you had anything to do with the first. Good theory though. I wouldn't be surprised if you were correct.

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  • 1 year later...

Ive been thinking this for a while now, I agree with the idea.

We know Jon Arryn married several times and was unable to produce children, plus all the miscarriges with Lysa, I think that it was Jon Arryn who was infertile all along. This added to all the LF/Lysa romance is what brings me here.

Also Lysa is very protective of Robert, now obviously any mother is of her child but I think it would be especially so if this was her child with someone she loved, rather than with Jon Arryn. Especially since she has had a child with LF who they had to abort, she would be extra protective of the second.

Illegitimate children seem to be a fashion in westeros, after all :laugh:

It may be that Sansa finds this out and uses it to bring down LF?

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Lysa said they made a baby who was murdered with moon tea i.e. Hoster's tansy. That's the one they conceived after Petyr's duel with Brandon, which led to Petyr's exile from Riverrun. Lysa was married off to Jon Arryn, but they must have stayed in contact. These are Lysa's "years of silence and whisperings", in which LF probably strung Lysa along with promises of love and used her to influence Jon Arryn.

LF's not fool enough to carry on an affair with Lysa in KL: the woman is a loose cannon, I don't see her being particularly discreet. He's been manipulating her all these years by saying they can finally be together if she gets him this job, poisons Jon, writes to Cat etc. It's not impossible but I really doubt LF is Sweetrobin's father.

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This suggests that not only they maintained a secret relationship, but they also have a child together - else why say we'll make another one? However, it could be one of those things GRRM does to throw people off - or on.

I think that was the child that Cat's dad forced her to abort. From what I interpreted, LF loved Cat (or said he did hoping to father an heir to Riverrun), but Cat did not return his affection so LF gets her sister preggers instead. Around the same time, he challenges Brandon to a duel. When Cat's dad finds out about Lysa he uses the duel as an excuse to send LF back to the Fingers but really it's because he had to get his daughter an abortion, which made it almost impossible to have children in the future. Hence why sweet robin has all those problems: her womb wasn't a great place to develop.

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  • 1 month later...

The "I want us to make another child" comment was regarding the first pregnancy that was way back when Lysa and Petyr were much younger, where her then father had the pregnancy terminated and sent Petyr away. This was all brought up in the chapter where Lysa was crying out franticly and trying to push Sansa out of the Moon Door, in ASOS. So with this in mind the comment is completely seperate from Sweetrobin.

Petyr was quite drunk at the time too, and called out Catelyn's name during it thinking it was her. So it seems a bit doubtful that he would continue to willingly be with Lysa over the years when their first romp was him being completely oblivious to the whole ordeal.... most likely would have rejected her if he had been sober.

Secondly, there is the "I have waited so long, I could not bear to wait another moment.” implying that they haven't seen each other for a significant amount of time.

Thirdly, "After all these years of silence and whisperings" was probably just her saying how isolated, quiet and uneventful the overall region of the Eyrie was. Sansa has noted it quite often on how hush hush and calm the place was.

*And Jon Arryn DID technically have a child before, but was born stillborn. So it wasn't like him having children was impossible overall (Thus probable that Sweetrobin is in fact his) just very very difficult - he clearly was the one with the problem, not the wives, with Lysa being aware of that.

Plus, where would they have had the time to be together..? Petyr was in KL building up his court cred, and even then I think people would notice if he travelled back and forth between the Eyrie, which takes practicly -forever- to do, with the travelling to get to the base, then the gates, then the hiking up mountains with mules etc etc And Lysa has been at the Eyrie for a long time, not even seeing her own family members for years.

That all being said, there could still be a bit of a chance. The only connection that I see is that both Sweetrobin and Petyr have greyish eyes and brown hair. So, who knows really? I think it is an interesting theory and concept to bring up.

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I think that was the child that Cat's dad forced her to abort. From what I interpreted, LF loved Cat (or said he did hoping to father an heir to Riverrun), but Cat did not return his affection so LF gets her sister preggers instead. Around the same time, he challenges Brandon to a duel. When Cat's dad finds out about Lysa he uses the duel as an excuse to send LF back to the Fingers but really it's because he had to get his daughter an abortion, which made it almost impossible to have children in the future. Hence why sweet robin has all those problems: her womb wasn't a great place to develop.

having a chemical abortion will not render you infertile...unsafe abortions with coat hangers will

It's obvious that Jon Arryn was slightly infertile: all those wives and only one child. Likely it was Lysa amazing Tully fertility that produced Robert inspite of Jon Arryns rather poor quality semen.

Or Jon could just be infertile and the child is Petyr's

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Plus, where would they have had the time to be together..? Petyr was in KL building up his court cred, and even then I think people would notice if he travelled back and forth between the Eyrie, which takes practicly -forever- to do, with the travelling to get to the base, then the gates, then the hiking up mountains with mules etc etc And Lysa has been at the Eyrie for a long time, not even seeing her own family members for years.

The idea suggested was that while Jon Arryn was the Hand in KL and LF was the master of coin, Lysa and LF would have had a chance to resume their affair. I really don't want this theory to be true. I prefer Robert being Jon Arryn's child. However, it is possible given that they had the opportunity.

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Ive been thinking this for a while now, I agree with the idea.

We know Jon Arryn married several times and was unable to produce children, plus all the miscarriges with Lysa, I think that it was Jon Arryn who was infertile all along. This added to all the LF/Lysa romance is what brings me here.

Also Lysa is very protective of Robert, now obviously any mother is of her child but I think it would be especially so if this was her child with someone she loved, rather than with Jon Arryn. Especially since she has had a child with LF who they had to abort, she would be extra protective of the second.

Illegitimate children seem to be a fashion in westeros, after all laugh.gif

It may be that Sansa finds this out and uses it to bring down LF?

Jon Arryn had children but they were either stillborn or died in their childhood, I think. His first wife, Jeyne Royce died in childbirth

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It is possible, but i don't think Littlefinger knows about it. He definitly counts on Swetrobin's death in his plans, a father wouldn't behave like this. Maybe ven Lysa was unaware of it, either way she would have told it to Petyr. she was truly in love with Littlefinger, she would have been very glad to have a child with him. I've always interpreted the "another child" as that one miscarried for her father's order, and not as a brother for Robert. Anyway, it cannot be excluded as a possibility, maybe it is planned to be a twist in the story later on, f. ex. how Littlefinger will react to know that Robert is his son.

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