The Latest News
Connect with Us

Notable Releases
From the Store
Game of Thrones Valar Morghulis T-Shirt
Valar Morghulis T-Shirt
HBO US
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


Photo

Sandor and Sansa


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
421 replies to this topic

#1 Dark Knight

Dark Knight

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 173 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 01:31 PM

First of all, if this topic has already been discussed, I'll be glad to if you direct me to it.

Now Sandor is generally percieved as the second most ruthless character in the series, after his brother.
First of all I would like for you to know that Sandor is my favorite non-POV character in the series.
The main impression of Sandor's ruthlessness is obtained at the beginning of the series, with his remarks at Winterfell and of course the famous ride down of Micah.
But as the complex relationship between him and Sansa unfold, we find out both the background and other layers to his character.
That's what I want to focus on here. On one hand he constantly mocks her for her Inocence and her lack of ability to bear the look of his face. On the other hand he is usually gentle with her, and it seems that he always tries to protect her - he was the only one who thought about saving her in the riot, he even voiced once, iirc, his displeasure with Joff's tendncy to beat her(said "that's enough" iirc), and of course finally came to her room to take her from the city, a scene which displays perfectly the duality of his attitude towards her - getting a song out of her with the point of his knife and than talking about protecting her.
So, I think that there are two things that can be on Sandor's mind:
1. He is sincerely in love with Sansa, and since he has never known nor had love in his life, he doesn't know how to deal with it and hence this duality.
2. He envies Sansa for her innocence. this makes perfect sense for me, since Gregor took all innocence from him at a very young age, and the fact that he mocks her for it means he wants it for himself or resnts her that she has it and he not - that's how people usually react to things the want and don't have while others do. Additionaly he is drown to her because of it, because it is the closest he will get to this craved innocence.

So, what do you think? Is Sandor a good man at heart who was hardened and "damaged" by the cruelty of his upbringing or he is as cruel as it seems and treats Sansa differently because he is in love with her or something?
Additionally, do you think that their path will cross again? do you want it to happen? I certainly do, after Sansa is not so innocent already. I think it will be very interesting to see how th Hound will react to that.

Edited by Dark Knight, 16 September 2010 - 01:33 PM.


#2 emmank

emmank

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 235 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 02:31 PM

Oh goody, one of my favorite topics. /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

I think it's both 1 and 2. I think initially, he thought of her as a naive child that needed protecting, but he really goes above and beyond protectorship by the end of aCoK. In aGoT, he calls her a "child" and in aCoK, he calls her a "woman" when he bumps into her on the serpentine steps. I don't doubt that his fascination with her started with being both attracted to and amused by her naivete, but he seems to develop a pretty thorough obsession with her.

In the big scheme of things, it's my pet theory that their weird crush/relationship will turn out to be more relevant than just a little side-jaunt into romance.
So far, Sandor has had quite a bit of influence on Sansa's character and vice versa. I think it's totally plausible that Sandor could sort of "take the blinders off" when it comes to Petyr. After all, Sandor was in the throne room when Ned was betrayed by Petyr. How would Sansa feel if she found out LF was part of taking her father down? Sandor could also ostensibly shed insight into whether LF planted the idea for Joffrey to chop off Ned's head on the steps of the Great Sept, which has been a popular theory for a while. There are other ways for Sansa to have some revelations, for sure, I'm just pointing out that it would work to have Sandor be a part of that, and also explain how their relationship fits in more in the grand design of the books.

Also, one more point I'd like to make about my theory: GRRM commented (it's in the SSM) that Sansa's misremembering of the kiss the night that Sandor came into her room during the Blackwater is "significant" .... I've thought about this, and what could possibly be so significant about a teenage girl fantasizing about a kiss? I think that her feelings for Sandor are developing, and THAT is the last thing in the world that anyone would expect, least of all Littlefinger. LF thinks he is writing on a blank slate - but he's not! In my head I like to compare that to Arya hiding Needle. The Faceless Men think/expect Arya to become an empty vessel for them to pour their ideologies into, but she has this one little thing that is keeping her from total brainwashing. I think that Sansa's crush on Sandor is functioning in a similar way.

#3 Eugene V. Debspalm

Eugene V. Debspalm

    Barbarism and Decadence, Fuck Yeah.

  • Board Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,948 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 02:59 PM

I'd really think this was an interesting relashionship, especially in context of the theme in the books that tends to take good pokes at redemptive true love, but as it is theres simply such a huge imbalance in the relashionship: power, agency, experience, knowledge...oh, and age. That little thing. SHES 12. People. 12. Finishing the 6th grade. 12.

So rather than being titillated for Sansa at this bad boy in her bedroom, i'm terrified at a drunken killer fondling her. I do think Sandor has painted himself an obessesion with her, and it is fascinating, but its scary, creepy, dangerous and pathetic, not romantic and ennobeling. I tend to think it therefor more of a deconstruction or even a satire of the gentle, innocent woman who can heal the scarred warriors lonely heart, becuase there is just no way I can get over that whole 12 thing and take San/San at face value.

#4 Ser_not_appearing_yet

Ser_not_appearing_yet

    Forsooth

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,417 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 03:41 PM

I don't think the relationship is about sex, or love for that matter. Sandor is the polar opposite of Sansa. He is a disturbed, bitter, twisted cynic who protects himself from the world by simply hating everything, whereas Sansa is an innocent idealist who lives 'in songs'.

Sandor despises this, because he is so attatched to it. Deep down he desperately wants Sansa's world to be true, almost like a kid, and he expresses it through his protective nature towards her.

Or he could just want to fuck a young girl. You decide.

It wouldn't change my opinion of Sandor; he's already a murderer, which is a worse crime anyway.

Edited by Ser_not_appearing_yet, 16 September 2010 - 03:44 PM.


#5 sailor

sailor

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 222 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 04:10 PM

Now Sandor is generally percieved as the second most ruthless character in the series, after his brother.


No he is not. Sandor is just a crybaby with a crybaby name.

He is annoying. Instead of sucking it up like John Wayne he spends his time unloading his emotional baggage on a twelve year old girl. He is a whiner pretending he has nothing but derison for morality, but in reality can not handle the disregard for morality he sees around himself and is leaking because of it.

I don't think the relationship is about sex, or love for that matter. Sandor is the polar opposite of Sansa. He is a disturbed, bitter, twisted cynic who protects himself from the world by simply hating everything, whereas Sansa is an innocent idealist who lives 'in songs'.


Not quite. Sandor is not the polar opposite. He is a coward who is lying to himself. As much as he tries to convince himself that he is a twisted cynic, he himself does not truly believe it. That is why he is so defensive about his facade and has a chip on his shoulder over anyone calling him ser. He is empty suit of a man who has a mental picture of who he wants to be (a ruthless person and someone strong enough to stand up to his brother), but he can never live up to it in truth, because he has a touchy-feely, do-gooder core.

He has all the crimes of evil, scummy murderers, but none of their strengths.

#6 Songlian

Songlian

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 339 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 04:46 PM

Also, one more point I'd like to make about my theory: GRRM commented (it's in the SSM) that Sansa's misremembering of the kiss the night that Sandor came into her room during the Blackwater is "significant" ....


I was completely unaware of this. Now that I've googled it and passed beyond the point of rejoicing in the news, I'm wondering why would Mr. Martin ever reveal something like this, unless he planned *not* to take the romance route with them. He isn't exactly fond of predictability, after all. I'm thinking there's some other reason he mentioned it as being significant and my hopes for them are once more on the ground. 

I'm a complete fangirl when it comes to this romance. Not really spooked up by her age. Considering women were eligible for marriage at sixteen, and could very well wed older men if need be, I don't think it's such a big deal the Hound, in all his age's splendor, is interested in her. 

And yes, I do tend to hope think he is genuinely interested in her, beyond his evident desire to experience some of her innocence.  

Edited by Songlian, 16 September 2010 - 04:47 PM.


#7 Eugene V. Debspalm

Eugene V. Debspalm

    Barbarism and Decadence, Fuck Yeah.

  • Board Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,948 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 04:54 PM

And yes, I do tend to hope think he is genuinely interested in her, beyond his evident desire to experience some of her innocence.


Oh god, I now can't get "experience some of her innocence" out of my head as euphemism.

"So, you and Anne, last night..."
"Yeah, I totally experienced some of that innocence."

#8 Songlian

Songlian

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 339 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 05:01 PM

Oh god, I now can't get "experience some of her innocence" out of my head as euphemism.



Oh my God. So totally not what I meant. *goes all lobster red* 

LOL.  

Edited by Songlian, 16 September 2010 - 05:04 PM.


#9 Dark Knight

Dark Knight

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 173 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 05:28 PM

Oh god, I now can't get "experience some of her innocence" out of my head as euphemism.

"So, you and Anne, last night..."
"Yeah, I totally experienced some of that innocence."


LOL, good stuff here...great line!

No he is not. Sandor is just a crybaby with a crybaby name.

He is annoying. Instead of sucking it up like John Wayne he spends his time unloading his emotional baggage on a twelve year old girl. He is a whiner pretending he has nothing but derison for morality, but in reality can not handle the disregard for morality he sees around himself and is leaking because of it.



Not quite. Sandor is not the polar opposite. He is a coward who is lying to himself. As much as he tries to convince himself that he is a twisted cynic, he himself does not truly believe it. That is why he is so defensive about his facade and has a chip on his shoulder over anyone calling him ser. He is empty suit of a man who has a mental picture of who he wants to be (a ruthless person and someone strong enough to stand up to his brother), but he can never live up to it in truth, because he has a touchy-feely, do-gooder core.

He has all the crimes of evil, scummy murderers, but none of their strengths.


I don't think it's quite that simple. First of all I don't think that he hates being called Ser because he thinks he doesn't deserve it but the other way around. He is not a coward but rather a trauma victim, there is a big difference. And the character he is playing(a ruthless twisted cynic) - I think it's the other way around also - I don't think it's the picture of what he wants to be but rather it's the reality he had to adopt, againt his nature, to live around Gregor, and what he wants to be is like Sansa. And that's, in my opinion, what makes him such an interesting character.
And what the hack is wrong with his name??

Edited by Dark Knight, 16 September 2010 - 05:28 PM.


#10 MaggietheFrog

MaggietheFrog

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 05:56 PM

I agree with both items 1 and 2 in the original post as well. I think that what started for Sandor as an attempt to preserve Sansa's innocence turned into genuine affection, at least, and maybe something more. I like to think that maybe his affection for Sansa is the real reason he kidnapped and tried to ransom Arya, but maybe not.

Also, and this is somewhat off topic (sorry!), how are we pronouncing Sandor? Because I say it with a sh sound. Sandor is the slavic form of Alexandor and is pronounced like Shandor.

#11 Mad Monkey

Mad Monkey

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,695 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 06:18 PM

I don't think that Sandor and Sansa will really ever cross paths again. If Sandor really is where he appears to be right now, he has no reason to go over to the Vale or to wade into the muck of mainstream Westeros again. He never really belonged there anyway.

That's not to say that I think the Sandor / Sansa interlude is pointless. I'm thinking that eventually Sansa will be able to draw parallels between Sandor's terrifying behavior and Littlefinger's more subtle manipulations, and that might help her gain some insight into what kind of person Littlefinger is (a monster).

#12 winterqueen

winterqueen

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 142 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:21 AM

Sandor and Sansa, where to begin? As to Dark Knight points, I agree with both. I would like to add that I think Sandor was totally freaked out by his feelings for Sansa by the end of ACOK and most of ASOS. Sansa is a child and very innocent. The Hound loves and hates her for it. Many of us have voiced our dismay on how young Sansa is- she's a child and not ready for a sexual relationship. Well, I think the Hound might have felt the same way and he was angry at himself for having those types feelings towards Sansa. I'm sure Sandor has had his share of whores and camp followers (or even kitchen girls of the Red Keep a la Pia). I bet before Sansa, the Hound just wanted WOMEN who knew what he wanted and gave it to him for the paid coin. It was just sex. Then Sansa comes along and turns everything upside down for him.

Also, I want to go on record by saying I thought Sandor's creepy behavior towards Sansa at the end of Clash was just awful. Yeah, I know he didn't hurt Sansa and he was scared by the fire/battle and was drunk. I like Sandor to some degree for walking away from Sansa but how he forced the song from her, telling his little bird he would kill her if she didn't sing and then putting a dagger to her throat....No, no, no.....

Now, on to Arya Stark. Sandor gained a lot of points from me on how he helped and protected Arya. I feel Sandor's time with Arya is just as important as his time with Sansa. Yes, he was a jerk to Arya at times. However, the Hound kept Arya safe and protected her when she needed protection the most. I didn't agree with some of Sandor's methods but I'm glad Arya is alive. Yes, Sandor wanted to collect the ransom money but he could have turned Arya over to the Lannisters (or even the Freys) at any time and made bank. He didn't. Even after the bar brawl at the Crossroad Inn, when he is wounded, he is set on taking Arya to Lady Lysa or the Blackfish.

My personal guess is that if Sandor is alive, he will join Arya if she returns to the 7 kingdoms. The way Arya left the Hound to suffer and "die" goes against the teachings of the Faceless Man. I just have a feeling Arya will meet up with Sandor before Sansa does. I guess we find out one way or another when ADWD or TWOW comes out.....

Edited by winterqueen, 17 September 2010 - 12:29 AM.


#13 Horza

Horza

    in it together

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,714 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:54 AM

Sandor isn't ruthless. He's a damaged member of a fucked-up family in service of a yet more fucked-up family. Sayeth the Elder Brother:

“I know a little of this man, Sandor Clegane. He was Prince Joffrey’s sworn shield for many a year, and even here we would hear tell of his deeds, both good and ill. If even half of what we heard was true, this was a bitter, tormented soul, a sinner who mocked both gods and men. He served, but found no pride in service. He fought, but took no joy in victory. He drank, to drown his pain in a sea of wine. He did not love, nor was he loved himself. It was hate that drove him. Though he committed many sins, he never sought forgiveness. Where other men dream of love, or wealth, or glory, this man Sandor Clegane dreamed of slaying his own brother, a sin so terrible it makes me shudder just to speak of it. Yet that was the bread that nourished him, the fuel that kept his fires burning. Ignoble as it was, the hope of seeing his brother’s blood upon his blade was all this sad and angry creature lived for . . . and even that was taken from him, when Prince Oberyn of Dorne stabbed Ser Gregor with a poisoned spear.”


The dynamic with Sansa is partially fueled by that innocence/cynicism relationship: he wants to destroy her illusions for her sake and also for his own identity - being hated and feared Dog, servant of the cruel Lions is a core part of his self-justification and her sweetness and naivete are a threat to that.

#14 trio

trio

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 425 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:55 AM

I'd really think this was an interesting relashionship, especially in context of the theme in the books that tends to take good pokes at redemptive true love, but as it is theres simply such a huge imbalance in the relashionship: power, agency, experience, knowledge...oh, and age. That little thing. SHES 12. People. 12. Finishing the 6th grade. 12.

So rather than being titillated for Sansa at this bad boy in her bedroom, i'm terrified at a drunken killer fondling her. I do think Sandor has painted himself an obessesion with her, and it is fascinating, but its scary, creepy, dangerous and pathetic, not romantic and ennobeling. I tend to think it therefor more of a deconstruction or even a satire of the gentle, innocent woman who can heal the scarred warriors lonely heart, becuase there is just no way I can get over that whole 12 thing and take San/San at face value.


Oh my God thank you. It has consistently creeped me out the way people kinda gloss over that. It's really disturbing that of all the people he takes a fancy to, it's a 12 year old girl who we are consistently told still looks like a child at this point.

Also, the way that in previous discussions, it's glossed over that when Sandor is in her bedroom GRRM makes sure to tell us she's petrified throughout the encounter. She's afraid he's going to kill her, or worse. But no! Because she remembers him kissing her afterwards it doesn't matter how terrified she was at the time! The misremembering somehow negates it? Not for me.

Oh, and that thing he told Arya? About how he wanted to fuck Sansa, and should've? Why let's just gloss over that too! Let's just say "Oh he doesn't mean it. He's just hurt and sad". /rolleyes2.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rolleyes:' />

It's the Woobification. Drives me insane.

Anyway - the interesting thing always to me is this: If Sandor is really where we think he is, then it appears that he will remain there. They take a vow not to kill (- and a vow of silence). The Elder Brother was also a bitter warrior that was washed up half dead and sought redemption on the island - and so GRRM is showing us in him (I believe) the prototype for Sandors future journey towards his own peace.

So what if Sandor stays on the Island and quietly finds his peace? And pays his penance for the rest of his life? Sounds good to me. Sounds like a perfect redemption arc. I know people want him to continue to be all Bad-Ass but I don't think he does.

So how does Sansa feel about Sandor at the moment? Pretty bitter, I think. So if he stays "dead", that probably won't have any reason to change. She'll continue to think of him as someone who ultimately didn't help her. When she does think of him - he's not really top of her mind at the moment.

I wonder if that happens and then the series ends, are people gonna be really mad about that?

#15 AvaAdore

AvaAdore

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 04:30 AM

On the age difference:
I must admit, when reading the books I constantly forget how YOUNG the Stark children are supposed to be, Arya, Bran, Sansa, Robb, Jon. And also (especially) Daenerys They all act several years older that I would expect and I’m always astounded when I remember how young they actually are.
Sansa is repeatedly described as a young girl and very naďve but still, in my minds eye, she is not 11-13, more like 14-16. Robb is always about 17/18 in my imagination, Arya is just about impossible at any age really, and Daenerys is about 18/19 in my head, Jon also.
Its very irritating at times, part of it can be explained that in a world where 15 is thought to be a legal age children would be expected to grow up very much more faster that in our culture. Part of it is perhaps an initial mistake of GRRM that it would have been more appropriate for slightly elder protagonists to carry his story but that couldn’t be changed anymore after the first book.

So yes, of course it is creepy a hell to imagine a grown man lusting after a 12 year old but it is a very similar situation to Drogo/Dany and Jorah Mormont/Dany where it is even described in detail that he loves her and wants her. It seems to be acceptable in the westerosi society.

Sandor is a tormented soul, twisted and broken. I doubt very highly that any romantic plot will evolve.
First, I not convinced he lives. Yes, there are these hints, but the elder brother also says he “covered his flesh” at the Trident, which would not make any sense at all if the Hounds “death” is a purely spiritual thing.
And then I have the sneaking suspicion Sandor Clegane is a figure immensely popular within fandom but was not intended to be a more significant character by the author himself so there are no plans to continue his story. In a tv series Sandor would be the guy who was supposed to come on for a few guest appearances but was kept on because of his popularity with the audience (Like Ben in LOST), but in a book series I doubt GRRM would do such a thing

#16 Songlian

Songlian

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 339 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 05:05 AM

Part of it is perhaps an initial mistake of GRRM that it would have been more appropriate for slightly elder protagonists to carry his story but that couldn't be changed anymore after the first book.


I think there even was a quote by Mr. Martin stating that he wished the children would have been a little older than what he started with. (I'm not sure where to grab that from now, unfortunately.) And in the same idea, I applaud HBO's decision to use slightly older actors. I agree that the Starks don't exactly behave according to their biological age, but maybe that could be attributed to the fact that it's a medieval like society where you became an adult at the age when we now mark the beginning of teenage.




#17 Dreadwolf

Dreadwolf

    Fallen Paladin

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,574 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:33 AM

Sandor is really a rum bird.

He is a refreshing counter point to Ned Stark and Brienne of Tarth.

Eddard was the paragon of idealistic honor and paternity, and Brienne is the only true knight in our story. She would always protect the weak while Sandor declaratively denied the weaklings their right of existence.

Yet he*s proved to be the more effective protector of Sansa and Arya in so far.

The Hound also ferociously demonized the Holy Knighthood as an idea at all.

Yet he saved the Knight of the Flowers from the savage Beast at the Hand*s Tourney.

Furthermore I find him as a striking counter point of prevailing pessimistic ideas that as if dominates and are otherwise bubbling over the books.

Such as these:

The things we love destroy us every time.
Love is sweet, but it cannot change a man*s nature..


#18 Eugene V. Debspalm

Eugene V. Debspalm

    Barbarism and Decadence, Fuck Yeah.

  • Board Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,948 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 09:26 AM

So yes, of course it is creepy a hell to imagine a grown man lusting after a 12 year old but it is a very similar situation to Drogo/Dany and Jorah Mormont/Dany where it is even described in detail that he loves her and wants her. It seems to be acceptable in the westerosi society.


Jorah/Dany in particular is a crawling pit of pure nasty, and Drogo/Dany only very marginally better.

#19 winterqueen

winterqueen

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 142 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 10:20 AM

Yes, I agree Ser Jorah and Dany was very creepy. Ser Jorah and Littlefinger are cut from the same cloth. They both totally come on to these young girls (Dany and Sansa) against their will and keep using their influence to get closer to the said girls. Both Ser Jorah and LF know Dany and Sansa aren't interested in them but they keep trying. It's only going to be a matter of time before LF's advances grow bolder towards Sansa. Unlike Daenerys, Sansa has no power to banish LF.

Edit to add: Another yuck factor: Both LF and Jorah see Sansa and Dany as an link or "second chance" to their youthful great loves (Catelyn Tully and Jorah's Hightower bride)

Edited by winterqueen, 17 September 2010 - 10:27 AM.


#20 WinterBreeze

WinterBreeze

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 109 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:07 PM

I'll make this quick, my opinion that is.

Sandor will become the replacement for Lady, I think he saw his past in Sansa
as Joff had his knights beat her, this subconsciously awoke memories in the Hound,
and a natural instinct to protect the young Stark from the same (or similar) existence to his.

They will undoubtably meet again, and Sandor (Hopefully having been helped by the priests) will
become the force that shatters Little Finger's control over The Vale and Sansa, and will become Sansa's 'Guard Dog'.
From this point on if any force threatens Sandor's "Little Bird" they should be delt with swiftly.
(Ie: Lions, Dragons, other Wolves, Krakens, Others, it may end with someones little finger cut off.)

Edited by WinterBreeze, 17 September 2010 - 12:09 PM.