Sandor and Sansa

[feardeathbywater]

The Dany and Sansa situations are a bit different. Dany has already been married and is rapidly approaching the modern age of consent. Sansa is thirteen and a virgin.

I seem to recall Sandor being very, VERY touchy about the Mycah subject. Was he really indifferent to who or what he killed or was he merely desperate to remain at court and keep his royal protectors and hated himself for what he did to keep away from GREGOR?

[WinterBreeze]

The Dany and Sansa situations are a bit different. Dany has already been married and is rapidly approaching the modern age of consent. Sansa is thirteen and a virgin.

I seem to recall Sandor being very, VERY touchy about the Mycah subject. Was he really indifferent to who or what he killed or was he merely desperate to remain at court and keep his royal protectors and hated himself for what he did to keep away from GREGOR?

That's a really good point to look at when humanizing Sandor. He was quite irritable on the subject around Arya.

[emmank]

Sandor is really a rum bird.

He is a refreshing counter point to Ned Stark and Brienne of Tarth.

Eddard was the paragon of idealistic honor and paternity, and Brienne is the only true knight in our story. She would always protect the weak while Sandor declaratively denied the weaklings their right of existence.

Yet he*s proved to be the more effective protector of Sansa and Arya in so far.

The Hound also ferociously demonized the Holy Knighthood as an idea at all.

Yet he saved the Knight of the Flowers from the savage Beast at the Hand*s Tourney.

Furthermore I find him as a striking counter point of prevailing pessimistic ideas that as if dominates and are otherwise bubbling over the books.

Such as these:

The things we love destroy us every time.

Love is sweet, but it cannot change a man*s nature..

This is really interesting to me, Dreadwolf. Martin's definitely exploring some themes with honor/honesty/effectiveness with Sandor and how he measures up with other knightly characters in the text. Just so I make this clear, I am not a Sandor apologist along the lines of "oh well he was burned as a kid, he's actually a nice guy deep down." He's good - he's bad, just like everyone else in these books. Martin has actually said on the not-a-blog (in response to someone saying that the Hound was an erotic and romantic figure - eek!) that the Hound was written as more of a dangerous character than a romantic one, and he also implied that the age difference between the two was thought-out.

Interestingly, if you reread the scene where Sansa first meets the Hound, she backs into him because of her fear of Ilyn Payne, and he puts his hands on her shoulders. Her first thought was that it was her father. I read in their relationship that superficially she is afraid of Sandor, but then she contradicts herself constantly by admiring his ferocity, honesty, and bravery, and also later inventing a kiss that didn't happen and wondering if she should have gone with him. I especially love their little conversation on top of the red keep before the Blackwater - Sansa, who is afraid of everyone in King's Landing - blurts out that Sandor is probably going to go to hell for all the evil he's done. Obviously, there is no fear there or she would have held her tongue like she does around everyone else. I also don't see bitterness there at all.... what is she bitter about? That he left her in King's Landing is the only thing I can find in the books, but she certainly does not seem bitter towards him and only thinks of him fondly, especially when thinking about honesty. I totally think there is going to come a breaking point or climax in Sansa's psyche, where Sandor's philosophy of bitter truth and no lies, and Petyr's philosophy of lying to everyone to get what you want, are going to clash and she has to make some major decisions.

Ok, so I can understand if the age factor squicks you out (It doesn't really bother me; as some have said, this is just such a different context) but you have to admit, it's really great writing and character development how these two play off one another. Especially because, 15 years later(or however long it's been since Clash), people are still discussing the nature of their relationship and trying to figure it out.

edit for Trio: I do agree with you that the Blackwater scene shouldn't be glossed over. I was very scared for her the first time I read it - big hulking drunk guy waiting for Sansa in her bed, in the dark, acting totally unstable and confusing the hell out of her. I think the reason it is "glossed over" is because he chooses not to hurt her, and the moment ends bittersweetly. If she were actually raped, I doubt anyone would think the two made a good pair, or want to read anything more about them. I read that scene now as her being able to -literally- reach through the Hound facade and find some semblance of humanity left in him.

[Lady Blackfish]

On a meta level, I got the feeling that the Dany and Drogo situation is meant to be squicky and the romanticization of it is supposed to be something that we see going on in Dany's mind, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we are supposed to carry it over and accept it as modern readers ourselves. I realize that "supposed to" is difficult to argue, though, but personally I felt like there's just so much of an obvious oooh look this is EXOTIC quality to Dany's chapters that it's difficult to take its norms at face value. It's part of Martin's fantasy world, no doubt, but I did not get the feeling that Martin's world is merely an exercise in world building, but also contains a certain commentary on genre tropes. As such, Dany's relationship with Drogo comes off to me like an intentionally exotic element, and I can't transfer that over to Sansa.

What I get out of the relationship is that GRRM shows that Sansa is an adolescent with an adolescent's burgeoning sense of sexuality/sensuality, and Sandor is a fucked up dude for whom Sansa represents lost innocence. Whether or not Martin is taking a deconstructive stance of the innocent good girl/dangerous bad boy, I suppose that is difficult to make stick either way until we see how it ends, and even then it may be ambiguous. But personally I do admit I find it hard to believe that such a classic trope would be delivered with no subversion.

[Timbits]

I do think Sandor has painted himself an obessesion with her, and it is fascinating, but its scary, creepy, dangerous and pathetic, not romantic and ennobeling.

I agree with this view.

[IanOfWinterfell]

The whole thing is just fanfic fodder.

[FatCatOberyn]

The Dany and Sansa situations are a bit different. Dany has already been married and is rapidly approaching the modern age of consent. Sansa is thirteen and a virgin.

I seem to recall Sandor being very, VERY touchy about the Mycah subject. Was he really indifferent to who or what he killed or was he merely desperate to remain at court and keep his royal protectors and hated himself for what he did to keep away from GREGOR?

Dany's 14th name day was several days after she got pregnant with Drogo. So she was thirteen when they first had sex. She was married, but it was a marriage that Viserys and magister Illyrio forced her into, so the morals aren't really that different.

I don't believe that Sandor wanted to keep away from Gregor. From what I remember, all he wanted was to get a shot at killing Gregor (although I was surprised to see that he did not try to kill him when he "intervened" in Gregor's attempt to kill Loras).

Personally, I don't find the Sandor-Sansa relationship creepy, scary, or pathetic, or anything like that. I don't consider any relationship in ASoIaF "disgusting" (not even Jaime and Cersei, I even liked the scene in the sept). Sandor has been feared and disrespected by pretty much everybody he ever met. I think he may have even liked her adressing him the same way she would adress a knight, because it partially proved his point about knights being no better than himself, just as he envies her innocence yet still tries to break her illusions about nobility by telling her stuff he never told anyone else.

[Timbits]

I think sometimes people read too into things. That there must be some complex emotion and thought behind an action. To be honest I just think he wants to bone her and at most has a bit of an obsession with her. What we are all forgeting is that Sansa is proclaimed as beautiful in the books and many men eye her. The hound wanting to kiss her is nothing special or new.

[Snowmelter]

I find it amusing that Sansa would try to burn her mattress to hide her first flowering from Joffery yet have romanticized memories of her terrifying encounter with Sandor.

[Horza]

She's hiding it from Cersei, because it means she's fit to bear Joffrey's children and the marriage is on. Creepy as Sandor is he's no psychopath.

[GrimTuesday]

I think that Sandor sees Sansa as the innocence he lost that faithful night when gregor shoved his head in a fire. He puts on this facade that he is a bad ass killer, and he is, with no heart, which he obviously has. This mask is merely a coping mechanism to live in the harsh world that is the Clegane family, subcounciusly I think that he wants to protect Sansa from that reality.

I little theory is that The Blackfish will wash up at the place where Sandor is and he will strike out for the Vale to rally support for his cause, but while on the island he will be overheard by a certain gravedigger while he is explain to the septon what his planes are. Sandor,l the gravedigger will decide to go with the BF because he wants to find Sansa to protect her. They will be the ones who take down Littlefinger because Sandor will recognize her despite the coloring in her hair.

Sure San/San is a little creepy but at the same time you have to consider the fact that in the time period in which this takes place, or the equivalent time period in our reality, it is not unusual for a older man to take a young bride. Also he's still better the Littlefinger poking Sansa with his little finger, at least Sandor doesn't want to proxy fuck her mom through her.

[trio]

But why would he roar in like a Knight in Shining Armour to Save her?

Firstly, that would piss me off from a feminist standpoint. If Sansa can't be proactive and eventually get herself out of her own situation, but instead the story has her relying on a big man to save her.... :ack:

Secondly, why would he do that? She's in his past. She's married. If he even hears on the Island that she's gone missing and is Joffrey's killer, then he'll also hear that she supposedly did it with her husband and they are presumed to be together.

Why would he leave the Island to save someone who (for all he knows) is holed up somewhere with her rightful husband, maybe even making babies? It makes no sense!

He may have been disgusted when he heard of the marriage, maybe even knows full well that it wasn't Sansa's choice. But guys - A YEAR HAS NOW PASSED since they got married and they are supposedly together. Certainly he wouldn't hear any information contrary to that. He's got to presume that she's now making a life for herself wherever she is.

[AvaAdore]

I entered fandom after reading the third book and I clearly, just as many other readers, picked up on the tension between Sansa and Sandor. I saw it more as a teenage girl crushing hard on an older guy (as in: fantasizing over a teacher, a rockstar, the father of a school friend or something like that), romanticizing things in retrospect, blowing them out of proportion, seeing love in places where they can’t be found, a very typical attitude for a young girl.

From Sandors perspective, what it is all about? Sympathy, loneliness, being drawn to innocence, lust, yearning for love? Pure speculation, as all their encounters are Sansa’s POV we will never know what drives him to her.

(and yes, I do enjoy the speculation)

So yeah, there I was, just happily assuming those two were somewhat drawn to each other.

Then I read some quotes from GRRM that he is somewhat surprised about the romantic aspects his readers find in Sandor, indicating that he never really meant to create that vibe between them, which flabbergasted me because it seemed so obvious.

It has happened before; authors have created characters which took on a life of their own But… I somehow can’t imagine him being happy with the misinterpretation of his character and willing to pick up on it and evolve it even further. So, Sandor Clegane and the Hound are probably out of the picture, regardless which part of them is alive or dead.

Well, “The Hound” is very much alive, thinking about it, his helm and his nasty persona passing from one to the other.

I also read his quote stating the false memory of the kiss “will be important” only meant Sansa’s tendency to be an unreliable narrator will be of importance or Sansa’s opinion on romantic love will be significant, not that the Hound/Sandor as a person will be of future importance to the story.

[GoodKingAlf]

Hello all,

I'm a former luker who was so interesting in this that I had to sign up.

What I think people need to bear in mind when they talk abotu Sansa being so young, is that back then it was perfectly normal for a 12 year old to at least be married.

Yes, the Stark kids are young, but back in that era you'd be lucky to reach 40, so as a result the life and experience is compressed.

Juliet in Romeo & Juliet was 12 too.

So while from our perspective it's creepy for this man to be obsessed with what we consider a child. Back then as soon as she's 'flowered' she's a woman.

[emmank]

Then I read some quotes from GRRM that he is somewhat surprised about the romantic aspects his readers find in Sandor, indicating that he never really meant to create that vibe between them, which flabbergasted me because it seemed so obvious.

It has happened before; authors have created characters which took on a life of their own But… I somehow can’t imagine him being happy with the misinterpretation of his character and willing to pick up on it and evolve it even further. So, Sandor Clegane and the Hound are probably out of the picture, regardless which part of them is alive or dead.

Do you know where you read this? Just out of curiosity? I seem to recall him saying that he was surprised Sandor turned out to be such a popular character in fandom, but he seems to be very careful in his wording when discussing the two, I assume to not cement himself into a plot line or give too much of his intentions away. Anyway, I'd like to read this if you know where you found it.

[trio]

Well actually Juliet was about to turn 14 that coming Lamass Eve, but I don't think it's all that relevant.

Cos we know that people could be married young in Westeros. Sansa WAS married at 12.

It's not about whether it could (or should) happen. It's about whether it's creepy or not for a man in his thirties to fancy a 12 year old who (for good measure) we're told still looks like a child at that point.

I mean, the person fancying Juliet was a 16 year old boy. If Sandor was 16, then I wouldn't mind - but I'd still think he was a horrible 16 year old and wouldn't want Sansa anywhere near him.

And Avadore, it's interesting you should say that GRRM may have been taken aback by the Sandor-love. Because I've long held the suspicion that GRRM has rather abruptly bundled Sandor out of the way.

I think the reason people are reluctant to let him go is because his arc did finish very suddenly. If it is finished, that is. We're with him and Arya all the way through ASOS and then suddenly.....he's vanished.

I always had the suspicion that Sandor was a device to show Sansa's burgeoning sexual awakening. And also a nice little "how being brutalised can rot someone from the inside" story. But I don't think he meant it as a "Romance" and I think he may have been taken aback when people ran with it.

So bye-bye Sandor.

[AvaAdore]

Do you know where you read this? Just out of curiosity?

I'm sorry, I read so much in the last 6 weeks, I just tried to find it... but googling several phrases only seems to take me to fan-boards…it was something in the line of "Sandor is dangerous, not romantic" and expressing his surprise that many readers thought differently.

I’m suspecting he didn’t quite realise he was creating a character with quite some potential sex-appeal in a “bad-boy”-trope kind of way

And Avadore, it's interesting you should say that GRRM may have been taken aback by the Sandor-love. Because I've long held the suspicion that GRRM has rather abruptly bundled Sandor out of the way.

Yes, this and GRRM is so vocal about not wanting fanfiction, saying it would feel like someone was violating his children so it’s easy to imagine him not being to enthusiastic about Sansa/Sandor, even in theoretical speculation of it on forums and such.

I always had the suspicion that Sandor was a device to show Sansa's burgeoning sexual awakening. And also a nice little "how being brutalised can rot someone from the inside" story. But I don't think he meant it as a "Romance" and I think he may have been taken aback when people ran with it.

So bye-bye Sandor.

Yup.

Though I am very sorry to see him go, he is a very, very good character.

[emmank]

Ava and trio.... have you checked out the ADwD subforum? The report (from 2008) of the reading of spoiler chapter Jon 3, the very last thing LugaJetBoyGirl mentions is:

Oh, and for the Hound fans, GRRM pretty much said that he was alive, saying 'it will be very interesting to finish his story, since he is such a grey character.'

(I don't think this is a spoiler per se, so I didn't spoilerize it, if anyone feels I should, I'll edit.)

This implies there is more to be written about him. I do take this with a grain of salt, as it does not necessarily mean that we will "see" Sandor again, we may just hear more about him and his fate through other characters. But I also wouldn't rule out another on-screen appearance. Just to keep the hope alive for those of us who like to read about Sandor! :P

[John Blaze]

Interesting thread, people.

I agree that his "abuse" of Sansa in her rooms while drunk shouldn't be glossed over, but it isn't like he raped her, which would totally destroy any sympathy fans have for him.

I myself find him to be one of my favorite villains, and sometimes think of him as an anti-hero, someone who can be and probably has been misunderstood. What are his motivations? Does he love Sansa, or does he just want to tap that?

I myself think he's interested in her because she's probably one of the lone females who has seen him as a man and not a monster. She talks to him, argues with him, and treats him as a human, of course he's gonna crush on her. Besides, according to the books, she's hot, right? Does he want to fuck her? Probably.

As to those of you screaming statutory rape, this is medieval fiction. In OUR middle ages, shit like this was common, so it's only par for the course that there be these situations. Shit, even in our day and age in some countries and societies it's common to still see marriages like this. Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed, kennit? So yes, it's nasty, but it's also fantasy fiction, so relax. If you want modern day truth and morals join Oprah's book club.

As to the "is he dead?" argument, I'm still unsure where to put my money, I'm wondering if the Elder Brother is being fully honest.

[dan_b]

I think one of the reasons the Hound comes off sympathetically is that despite what others say about him and despite what he says about himself, he doesn't actually do anything that horrible in the books. The worst is the murder of Mycah and that happens early in the series and offstage.

He protects people (Sansa, Arya, even Loras), he doesn't go out of his way to kill anyone (he even leaves the sleeping watchman alive when he finds the Brothers without Banners) and when he does, he is being attacked, often by people who are worse than him (The Bloody Mummers). He even fights Gregor fairly--refusing to go after his face.

For all the rough talk and complaining, he actually holds pretty closely to knightly ideals. So he comes off as the guy who walks around talking about how evil he is, but his actions are those of a big softy.

We're TOLD he's a monster by other characters, but from what we actually see in the book, he wouldn't be out of place in a romance novel--the cynical wounded warrior who just needs someone to love him.

As a reader, it's hard to figure out how I'm supposed to see him. Reliable sources in the book refer to him as a butcher and a monster, but we never actually see him do those things. Instead, whenever he's actually onstage, he comes of as a drunker, more lecherous Han Solo.