79 replies to this topic

[Linda]

I wouldn't be surprised if they change gender to match their riders, yeah. Or maybe have the opposite gender. You always get people claiming that women handle stallions better and men handle mares better...and some who say the opposite. But who knows what dragons prefer.

And I sure wouldn't want to be the one to lift a dragon's tail to check.

[Lady Lars]

Lyvyathan, on 18 October 2011 - 09:38 PM, said:

Why not? Wouldn't some form of warging would be necessary to control the dragons? - A Dragon is not an elephant, horse, dolphin, heck its even more fierce than the Crocodile or any known predator. What would prevent a massive flying reptile that shoots out flames and kills whole armies from getting sick of the human gnat riding on its back - and killing said rider.

"F-this Aegom, I'm sick of you riding my back and getting me to fly around, who the heck are ya to tell me what to do? I want to go eat some cows now" - and promptly throws him to the ground.

"A bond" would necessarily mean some form of warging imho - at least in relation to said dragon.

You can have belief in destiny all you want - but does the freaking monster of a Dragon know it or even care?

Mayhaps you might bring up Killer-whales... yeah, then maybe ...

This is purely mindless speculation.

Spoiler

Don't you recall Tyrion's discussion with Brown Ben about how the dragons took to him, on account of his dragon blood, of which he had "more than a drop"? Martin made it fairly clear that those with enough dragon blood have a bond with the dragons. The dragon riders must needs have dragon blood.

So, what of Jon Snow? There has been endless speculation that he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and therefore one of the heads of and presumably a tamer of the dragon(s). Yet in AGoT, he burned his sword hand severely. We know of one dragon-tamer, and her flesh does not burn.

This doesn't necessarily rule Snow out as a dragon head - but maybe he is instead the ice to Dany's fire, as perhaps Lyanna was to Rhaegar. The rose on the wall....

I'll stop before this goes off-topic, but I think it's important to understand the connection between riders and dragons. If only we knew more about Valyria....

*edited to hide spoilers*

Edited by Lady Lars, 27 October 2011 - 01:27 PM.

[Pomp & Happenstance]

GRRM has stated that Dany being unburned was a phenomenon, maybe not to be repeated again, even by her (he didn't answer the follow up question). It has not happened before and it is in no way, shape, or form, a qualifying factor for being a Targyrean. So you can't rule out Jon, or Victareon for that matter, simply because they know fire is hot.

[lyvyathan]

Lady Lars, on 27 October 2011 - 01:23 PM, said:

This is purely mindless speculation.

Why do you call it purely mindless speculation? I cast a realistic scenario based on what we know. The whole idea of warging came from GRRM. Is it no surprise that all of the Stark children have some special bond and relationship with their direwolves to the extent of being able to see what they are seeing?

Stark blood = bond with wolves etc.
Targaryen blood = bond with dragon

Edited by Lyvyathan, 30 October 2011 - 06:11 PM.

[Rickon The Fierce]

Lord Varys, on 27 September 2010 - 01:14 AM, said:

We do know that GRRM likey tourney very much. We also do know that the stock of Targaryen dragons increased during the time of their early reign (Aegon only had three, Jaehaerys I took five dragons with him to Winterfell, so he had at least as much, or even more - and this visit could even have taken place after Balerion's death), until most of them died during the Dance of Dragons.

So what did the Targaryens do with their dragons during peace time (and the times were peaceful during the 70 years of Jaehaerys and Viserys)? Of course, there should/could have been some kind of tourney involving dragons. Such things could have been really fun, especially as huge spectacles which showed the whole Realm splendor and power of their ruling dynasty. Unfortunately no one ever talked about them. At least until now. One should really dig into the possibility of such things ;-).

And then we also want a dragon family tree. It started with Aegon's dragons, and only went on for six generations (if we count Aegon's III generation a generation were dragons were born), so in total it's unlikely that there were more then 20 grown Targaryen dragons.

It seems that Dragons were much more used in old Valyria, and thus they were able to grow and prosper, when Targaryens moved to Westeros, they used their Dragons to conquer the lands, giving them opportunity to fly, fight and feed. However,  once all of Westeros is subdued, their Dragons no longer served their purpose in war. So my guess is that in the time of peace Dragons were held in dragons pit under the Red Tower. And by doing so they started to devolve.

It's nineteen, and you could find the names and timeline fore some of them in the books - but what's the point, Dany's Dragons are not related to the old line of Targaryen Dragon's.

[Rickon The Fierce]

Lyvyathan, on 27 October 2011 - 06:51 PM, said:

Why do you call it purely mindless speculation? I cast a realistic scenario based on what we know. The whole idea of warging came from GRRM.

I agree, warging has crucial role to the plot. Imagine this - my guess is that Jon Snow is half Stark-half Targaryen - Stark blood allows him to worg his wolf, and Targaryen to become second head of the Dragon.

[lyvyathan]

Pomp & Happenstance, on 27 October 2011 - 02:03 PM, said:

GRRM has stated that Dany being unburned was a phenomenon, maybe not to be repeated again, even by her (he didn't answer the follow up question). It has not happened before and it is in no way, shape, or form, a qualifying factor for being a Targyrean. So you can't rule out Jon, or Victareon for that matter, simply because they know fire is hot.

But in ADWD -

Spoiler

Dany was struck by her dragon's flames - and the same phenomenon occurred again, her hair was burnt yet not her own skin.

. Its written there in the book.

[lyvyathan]

NenadBulaja, on 29 October 2011 - 09:58 AM, said:

It seems that Dragons were much more used in old Valyria, and thus they were able to grow and prosper, when Targaryens moved to Westeros, they used their Dragons to conquer the lands, giving them opportunity to fly, fight and feed. However,  once all of Westeros is subdued, their Dragons no longer served their purpose in war. So my guess is that in the time of peace Dragons were held in dragons pit under the Red Tower. And by doing so they started to devolve.

It's nineteen, and you could find the names and timeline fore some of them in the books - but what's the point, Dany's Dragons are not related to the old line of Targaryen Dragon's.

I don't think the demise of dragons had much to do with their zoo - but more to do with the end of the season of magic.

My theory is that "Its time (for magic to happen)". The rise of Dany's dragon coincided with the rise of other mythical creatures, The Others, the sea monster Krakens from the sea, the appearance of Direwolves south of the Wall etc..

[Rickon The Fierce]

Lyvyathan, on 29 October 2011 - 10:40 PM, said:

I don't think the demise of dragons had much to do with their zoo - but more to do with the end of the season of magic.

My theory is that "Its time (for magic to happen)". The rise of Dany's dragon coincided with the rise of other mythical creatures, The Others, the sea monster Krakens from the sea, the appearance of Direwolves south of the Wall etc..

I partially agree, Dragons are fierce creatures, described as Fire and Wind brought together, and even raider who is meant to ride the Dragon can not do so lightly, also Dragons feeding habits are problematic (they would eat any kind of meat, and in great quantities). So my guess is that after Targaryens no longer needed Dragons to subdue, or control the realm they decided to put their Dragons in controlled space for kinda "easier maintenance". However, living and breading in such environment must have been hard for animals meant for flying and hunting, so their offspring's got  smaller and weaker.

So my theory goes like this, with dying out of Dragons, the Others grown stronger, and with the coming of the long winter decided to strike at the realms of Man again. Magic in the realms was weaker only in part related to fire and blood - the kind most useful against the Others. So Dragons are connected with THAT part of magic. So their appearance is connected to it, not coincidental.

By the way, Dire wolves are just larger sort of wolves, and Kraken is giant squid, mythical only because long time passed without seeing one.

[lyvyathan]

NenadBulaja, on 30 October 2011 - 10:49 AM, said:

I partially agree, Dragons are fierce creatures, described as Fire and Wind brought together, and even raider who is meant to ride the Dragon can not do so lightly, also Dragons feeding habits are problematic (they would eat any kind of meat, and in great quantities). So my guess is that after Targaryens no longer needed Dragons to subdue, or control the realm they decided to put their Dragons in controlled space for kinda "easier maintenance". However, living and breading in such environment must have been hard for animals meant for flying and hunting, so their offspring's got  smaller and weaker.

So my theory goes like this, with dying out of Dragons, the Others grown stronger, and with the coming of the long winter decided to strike at the realms of Man again. Magic in the realms was weaker only in part related to fire and blood - the kind most useful against the Others. So Dragons are connected with THAT part of magic. So their appearance is connected to it, not coincidental.

By the way, Dire wolves are just larger sort of wolves, and Kraken is giant squid, mythical only because long time passed without seeing one.

Kraken is a giant squid that can destroy ships ; the fact that one pops out at this juncture may be of no small coincidence.

Dang, can't wait for the next book to come out now.

[lyvyathan]

NenadBulaja, on 29 October 2011 - 10:01 AM, said:

I agree, warging has crucial role to the plot. Imagine this - my guess is that Jon Snow is half Stark-half Targaryen - Stark blood allows him to worg his wolf, and Targaryen to become second head of the Dragon.

Well that part (Jon=2nd head of Dragon) remains to be seen.

We do know that having Targaryen blood may not be help one to be immune from heat. And Dany's brother didn't seem to have any special affinity with the eggs.

[Rickon The Fierce]

Lyvyathan, on 30 October 2011 - 06:03 PM, said:

Kraken is a giant squid that can destroy ships ; the fact that one pops out at this juncture may be of no small coincidence.

Dang, can't wait for the next book to come out now.

Exactly, I don't deny its connected to the plot,and that it's no coincidence, the world is at the turning point, and all creatures feel it, and react to it.

To see some more mythical creatures?

[Rickon The Fierce]

Lyvyathan, on 30 October 2011 - 06:15 PM, said:

Well that part (Jon=2nd head of Dragon) remains to be seen.

We do know that having Targaryen blood may not be help one to be immune from heat. And Dany's brother didn't seem to have any special affinity with the eggs.

Yeah, it's just my speculation (more like wishful thinking).

I know, on another forum someone gave the fact Jon's hand got burned as crown evidence that he is not Targaryen. That is why, from now, I'm sharing my wisdom only with those of the same ilk (ASoIaF fanatics)

[Queensmoot]

Pomp & Happenstance, on 27 October 2011 - 02:03 PM, said:

GRRM has stated that Dany being unburned was a phenomenon, maybe not to be repeated again, even by her (he didn't answer the follow up question). It has not happened before and it is in no way, shape, or form, a qualifying factor for being a Targyrean. So you can't rule out Jon, or Victareon for that matter, simply because they know fire is hot.

Lyvyathan, on 29 October 2011 - 10:34 PM, said:

But in ADWD -

Spoiler

Dany was struck by her dragon's flames - and the same phenomenon occurred again, her hair was burnt yet not her own skin.

. Its written there in the book.

That makes me wonder about Euron's dragon horn that burnt the insides of the guy that blew it. Maybe Dany can blow it and live? I'm sure thats been mentioned elsewhere - but it seems to fit.

[Stark@heart]

In Dany's last chapter in ADWD it mentions her hands weeping a white fluid, I think when she's at Drogon's cave -  so it seems she can be somewhat burnt herself (besides just her hair)
I am totally committed to R+L = J    Jon gets a dragon because he has Targ blood and if he doesn't have Targ blood then he still gets a dragon because he can warg.

[Rickon The Fierce]

Queensmoot, on 31 October 2011 - 04:35 PM, said:

That makes me wonder about Euron's dragon horn that burnt the insides of the guy that blew it. Maybe Dany can blow it and live? I'm sure thats been mentioned elsewhere - but it seems to fit.

Yeah, GRRM does like to connect things in such way. And Dany is the future Dragon Queen of Westeros ( I hope,I hope - fingers crossed).

[Rickon The Fierce]

Stark@heart, on 31 October 2011 - 04:44 PM, said:

In Dany's last chapter in ADWD it mentions her hands weeping a white fluid, I think when she's at Drogon's cave -  so it seems she can be somewhat burnt herself (besides just her hair)
I am totally committed to R+L = J Jon gets a dragon because he has Targ blood and if he doesn't have Targ blood then he still gets a dragon because he can warg.

Agreed, it's a win/win situation. Hope Martin reads this.

[Stark@heart]

Maybe that's what's taking him so long to finish the series.  He reads the forums and changes things that get figured out.

[Rickon The Fierce]

Stark@heart, on 31 October 2011 - 05:00 PM, said:

Maybe that's what's taking him so long to finish the series.  He reads the forums and changes things that get figured out.

Dang, I'm leaving forum right now

[lyvyathan]

Stark@heart, on 31 October 2011 - 04:44 PM, said:

In Dany's last chapter in ADWD it mentions her hands weeping a white fluid, I think when she's at Drogon's cave -  so it seems she can be somewhat burnt herself (besides just her hair)

Did it mention the white fluid? Thanks, I'll have to read it again. But even if it did - it would still indicate that Dany has special supernatural powers which enable her to resist fire. Basically, the same phenemenon which occurred when she stepped into the pyre. Weeping white fluid is not the same as being charcoaled

Mayhaps Dragon's fire has different properties as normal fire? The way GRRM writes about the Dragon's flesh being so hot that its melting away the spear point seems to indicate that they have special properties not found in normal creatures.