79 replies to this topic

[lyvyathan]

Stark@heart, on 31 October 2011 - 05:00 PM, said:

Maybe that's what's taking him so long to finish the series.  He reads the forums and changes things that get figured out.

Don't laugh. He's mentioned about that in the "Authors@Google" interview - where he says some of his readers in forums have come up with better ideas or worked out certain mysteries. He claims he doesn't read them as a result which might explain the long delay in completing the books.

You can watch the interview with him here.

[lyvyathan]

Rickon The Fierce, on 31 October 2011 - 04:31 PM, said:

Yeah, it's just my speculation (more like wishful thinking).

I know, on another forum someone gave the fact Jon's hand got burned as crown evidence that he is not Targaryen. That is why, from now, I'm sharing my wisdom only with those of the same ilk (ASoIaF fanatics)

Jon's hand being burnt is not conclusive evidence that he's not a Targ. Afterall, Dany's brother dies from the molten gold - even if people may speculate that molten gold has special properties that can hurt a dragon - there does not seem to be no textual evidence that he has similar resistance to heat. But if someone can show me a passage which suggests otherwise, I'd be happy to see that too.

[Pomp & Happenstance]

Definitely not arguing that Dany isn't fire-resistant/proof/immune... she obviously is . I was just mentioning an interview (prior to aDwD) where GRRM said that it may or may not happen again for her, and that no similar instances were known. (At the time I could understand him not wanting to set things in stone for readers and keep mystery, though we know better now).

On a separate note. I'm a firm believer that Dany will be able to "toot Victarion's horn" and come away unscathed... However this leaves different questions: If the horn binds dragons, and kills the "trumpeter", to whom is the dragon bound? Was the horn originally intended to be used by those impervious to flame? Will Dany be able to bind multiple dragons with it if so? (although that stretches already contrived limitations on dragon to rider ratios)

-Overall, although we only know of one case of Fire resistance (dany), I wouldnt be surprised if other Valyrians in forgotten past have had the ability as well. Since this is in the TWoIaF section.... I would be very happy if some background information on dragon handling/binding was including in the book.

Edited by Pomp & Happenstance, 01 November 2011 - 12:31 PM.

[Sirielle]

Pomp & Happenstance, on 01 November 2011 - 12:30 PM, said:

If the horn binds dragons, and kills the "trumpeter", to whom is the dragon bound? Was the horn originally intended to be used by those impervious to flame? Will Dany be able to bind multiple dragons with it if so? (although that stretches already contrived limitations on dragon to rider ratios)

Perhaps the horn made in the ancient Valyria doesn't kill only those who are of Valyrian blood, so no one could trun dragons against it's creators - against dragon masters of Valyria? If yes it should not kill Dany.

Moqorro explains to Victarion it depends not on who is blowing the horn but to whom the horn belongs, but I don't believe it. Maybe he says it only to bring Victarion closer to Dany and let her take over the horn.

[Rickon The Fierce]

Sirielle, on 01 November 2011 - 02:12 PM, said:

Perhaps the horn made in the ancient Valyria doesn't kill only those who are of Valyrian blood, so no one could trun dragons against it's creators - against dragon masters of Valyria? If yes it should not kill Dany.

Moqorro explains to Victarion it depends not on who is blowing the horn but to whom the horn belongs, but I don't believe it. Maybe he says it only to bring Victarion closer to Dany and let her take over the horn.

Moqorro is preast of R'hllor, and frankly I don't like the lot. Horn is supposed to bind the dragon to the one that is blowing, but

Spoiler

Dany already bonded Drogon to herself, and there can be only one raider per dragon

- so what would be the point?

Some sort of security against non Valiryian user - good idea, like it

[Rickon The Fierce]

Lyvyathan, on 31 October 2011 - 05:43 PM, said:

Jon's hand being burnt is not conclusive evidence that he's not a Targ. Afterall, Dany's brother dies from the molten gold - even if people may speculate that molten gold has special properties that can hurt a dragon - there does not seem to be no textual evidence that he has similar resistance to heat. But if someone can show me a passage which suggests otherwise, I'd be happy to see that too.

No, in all books Dany is the only one that showed that kind of resistance to fire. BUT, Stannis wielded sword set on fire by Mellisandre and didn't get burned, and she is able to manipulate fire and not get harmed, and probably that holds true for all priests of R'hllor.

So my point is that fire resistance - or lack of it, is by no mean proof of heritage. It only means that Dany has inborn high fire resistance - which is said to be ONE of the Targaryen traits.

[Pomp & Happenstance]

Rickon The Fierce, on 01 November 2011 - 05:00 PM, said:

Stannis wielded sword set on fire by Mellisandre and didn't get burned, and she is able to manipulate fire and not get harmed, and probably that holds true for all priests of R'hllor.

So my point is that fire resistance - or lack of it, is by no mean proof of heritage. It only means that Dany has inborn high fire resistance - which is said to be ONE of the Targaryen traits.

Stannis had to wear basicly a giant oven mitt to keep from gettin burned though...   I only remember because it made me laugh to see this stern character drudging through this speach that she's given in a bunch of languages and then his reaction to his arm almost catching flame. haha.

I completely agree with your other comments though, Targaryen's have the blood of the dragon in them, and fire is nothing to them, it is known.

[Ser Lepus]

Sirielle, on 01 November 2011 - 02:12 PM, said:

Perhaps the horn made in the ancient Valyria doesn't kill only those who are of Valyrian blood, so no one could trun dragons against it's creators - against dragon masters of Valyria? If yes it should not kill Dany.

Moqorro explains to Victarion it depends not on who is blowing the horn but to whom the horn belongs, but I don't believe it. Maybe he says it only to bring Victarion closer to Dany and let her take over the horn.

From my point of view, that guy is clearly playing Victarion for a fool; we know that the mainstream red priests from Volantis strongly support Daenerys. Moqorro is gonna use Victarion to help Dany, and then discard him like used tissue. And Victarion will die raging, knowing he has been an utter tool.

Edited by Ser Lepus, 04 November 2011 - 07:33 PM.

[jsw2289]

lyvyathan, on 31 October 2011 - 05:34 PM, said:

Did it mention the white fluid? Thanks, I'll have to read it again. But even if it did - it would still indicate that Dany has special supernatural powers which enable her to resist fire. Basically, the same phenemenon which occurred when she stepped into the pyre. Weeping white fluid is not the same as being charcoaled

Mayhaps Dragon's fire has different properties as normal fire? The way GRRM writes about the Dragon's flesh being so hot that its melting away the spear point seems to indicate that they have special properties not found in normal creatures.

to my understanding of the text Drogon gave a full blown viscous roar in Dany's face and the ensuing dragon breath was blistering hot, to the point were her hair caught fire and it blistered her hands. it doesn't say that dragon flame engulfed her. perhaps a reread of that chapter is in order.
*edit*(yea i just reread the end of that chapter and that^^^ is definitely the case)

also to answer a question from someone earlier in the thread.
although a rider will only ever ride one dragon, that same dragon can have multiple riders throughout it's long life(granted not at the same time). _so stated in ADWD

Edited by jsw2289, 08 November 2011 - 07:44 PM.

[lyvyathan]

jsw2289, on 08 November 2011 - 07:26 PM, said:

to my understanding of the text Drogon gave a full blown viscous roar in Dany's face and the ensuing dragon breath was blistering hot, to the point were her hair caught fire and it blistered her hands. it doesn't say that dragon flame engulfed her. perhaps a reread of that chapter is in order.
*edit*(yea i just reread the end of that chapter and that^^^ is definitely the case)

also to answer a question from someone earlier in the thread.
although a rider will only ever ride one dragon, that same dragon can have multiple riders throughout it's long life(granted not at the same time). _so stated in ADWD

Well if she coped one breath in the face that was so hot it caused her hair to catch on fire - then surely she'd suffer more than just a bit of weeping skin wouldn't she?

I haven't as yet stuck my head in a furnace nor do I intend to do so until such time as I come to the belief that Catelyn Stark is a genius - but I dare say that if I got hit in the face with enough hot air to cause my hair to ignite, my face would be BBQed meat as well, mayhaps on the raw side of course.

I thought Dany's hands were weeping because she grabbed the molten spear? That doesn't seem to indicate significant injury - one that a normal person would suffer.

Anyway despite what GRRM may say in interviews - it seems obvious that Dany has a unique superhuman ability to withstand heat as indicated by the passage in the text.

Edited by lyvyathan, 08 November 2011 - 09:57 PM.

[jsw2289]

lyvyathan, on 08 November 2011 - 09:45 PM, said:

Well if she coped one breath in the face that was so hot it caused her hair to catch on fire - then surely she'd suffer more than just a bit of weeping skin wouldn't she?

I haven't as yet stuck my head in a furnace nor do I intend to do so until such time as I come to the belief that Catelyn Stark is a genius - but I dare say that if I got hit in the face with enough hot air to cause my hair to ignite, my face would be BBQed meat as well, mayhaps on the raw side of course.

I thought Dany's hands were weeping because she grabbed the molten spear? That doesn't seem to indicate significant injury - one that a normal person would suffer.

Anyway despite what GRRM may say in interviews - it seems obvious that Dany has a unique superhuman ability to withstand heat as indicated by the passage in the text.

Yes i agree.  Dany has a very high resistance to heat. But i think it's just that, resistance. Human hair can burn at a fairly low temp, granted it would still be enough to seer you a bit, but throw in some "blood of the dragon" and all you get is some weepy sores ...lol i thought the burnt hands were from clutching Drogon's bare back though i didn't think about the spear.
That being said Dany is hardly fire proof/immune. I'm sure if Drogon let out a full on blast of dragon fire right in Dany's face she would fry just as fast as the next guy... perhaps a second or two slower.
I do think that Targaryen's(perhaps only ones that are true "dragons"??) have a resistance or maybe even an affinity for fire. But i'm sure even Aegon the Conqueror would've melted under his dragon's fire.

Edited by jsw2289, 08 November 2011 - 10:47 PM.

[lyvyathan]

jsw2289, on 08 November 2011 - 10:35 PM, said:

Yes i agree.  Dany has a very high resistance to heat. But i think it's just that, resistance. Human hair can burn at a fairly low temp, granted it would still be enough to seer you a bit, but throw in some "blood of the dragon" and all you get is some weepy sores ...lol i thought the burnt hands were from clutching Drogon's bare back though i didn't think about the spear.
That being said Dany is hardly fire proof/immune. I'm sure if Drogon let out a full on blast of dragon fire right in Dany's face she would fry just as fast as the next guy... perhaps a second or two slower.
I do think that Targaryen's(perhaps only ones that are true "dragons"??) have a resistance or maybe even an affinity for fire. But i'm sure even Aegon the Conqueror would've melted under his dragon's fire.

Well, you can't say the Targs do not have fire immunity because the book doesn't say so. It does have that famous scene where Dany walks into the funeral pyre and comes out relatively unscathed.

Apparently there is an interview that GRRM gives where he says that the scene was a once off. But that can't be considered canon(sufficent ASOIAF evidence) unless he writes a scene that has Dany suffer severe burning from flames.

Weeping is what? That's hardly any damage. People who suffer burns have their flesh burnt. I think Dany suffered more from horse riding than riding her beast of fire.

I thought the scene where she rips out the half-molten spear and to find her Dragon's flesh smouldering hot extraordinary. I used to think that the Dragons in ASOIAF were flying reptiles but the fact that metal melts when it pierces a dragon's skin is supernatural.

We're obviously not in Kansas here - so anything attributed to Dany has to be grounded in the actual text.

Edited by lyvyathan, 15 November 2011 - 06:46 PM.

[Rickon The Fierce]

jsw2289, on 08 November 2011 - 07:26 PM, said:

to my understanding of the text Drogon gave a full blown viscous roar in Dany's face and the ensuing dragon breath was blistering hot, to the point were her hair caught fire and it blistered her hands. it doesn't say that dragon flame engulfed her. perhaps a reread of that chapter is in order.
*edit*(yea i just reread the end of that chapter and that^^^ is definitely the case)

also to answer a question from someone earlier in the thread.
although a rider will only ever ride one dragon, that same dragon can have multiple riders throughout it's long life(granted not at the same time). _so stated in ADWD

Its not a question, and context was that Dany is already bound to Drogon, so there is no point in her blowing the horn, unless she is able to bind someone else to the dragon of her choosing, and THAT would be a contest to see.

[Andrés Garcia]

Quote

Well if she coped one breath in the face that was so hot it caused her hair to catch on fire - then surely she'd suffer more than just a bit of weeping skin wouldn't she?

No you see, that was just another one time event!

[mor2]

do we know how the Valarians initially tame their dragons? did it involved magic?

[Sidonie]

Rickon The Fierce, on 09 November 2011 - 09:42 AM, said:

Its not a question, and context was that Dany is already bound to Drogon, so there is no point in her blowing the horn, unless she is able to bind someone else to the dragon of her choosing, and THAT would be a contest to see.

Well, we know that only Drogon is bound to her now. How will Dany control Rhaegal and Viserion, if not with the horn?

[Catastrophe]

lyvyathan, on 09 November 2011 - 01:35 AM, said:

I thought the scene where she rips out the half-molten spear and to find her Dragon's flesh smouldering hot extraordinary. I used to think that the Dragons in ASOIAF were flying reptiles but the fact that metal melts when it pierces a dragon's skin is supernatural.

Judging by their characteristics, I actually figured they were winged, hermaphroditic, egg-laying mammals, similar to bats and platypi. They require a mother's milk for nourishment when they're born, and their wings are described as being similar to a bat's wings, rather than the birdlike or reptilian wings that typical fantasy dragons have. I do agree that their ability to breathe fire and melt metal with their blood is supernatural, rather than a function of their physiology.

Of course, they might not be strictly biological beings at all. They could be more like fire elementals, similar to how the Others seem to be ice elementals. I doubt it though: They breathe, eat, sleep, reproduce, and mature like normal animals, and unlike the Others they leave behind remains when they die, which indicates that they're at least partially physical creatures.

Edited by Catastrophe, 19 December 2011 - 06:28 PM.

[lyvyathan]

Catastrophe, on 19 December 2011 - 06:24 PM, said:

Of course, they might not be strictly biological beings at all. They could be more like fire elementals, similar to how the Others seem to be ice elementals. I doubt it though: They breathe, eat, sleep, reproduce, and mature like normal animals, and unlike the Others they leave behind remains when they die, which indicates that they're at least partially physical creatures.

You're right the first time. The Others do leave behind remains - but because their composition is water - it just melts away. Maybe they should catch one and put in a big tub so that it can become one big icecube.

[Stark Winds]

lyvyathan, on 19 December 2011 - 07:14 PM, said:

You're right the first time. The Others do leave behind remains - but because their composition is water - it just melts away. Maybe they should catch one and put in a big tub so that it can become one big icecube.

Lol, that will be one way the NW can get money, by exporting Ice a la Other to Southern countries.
That being said, GRRM did say that Dany surviving the pyre that hatched her dragons (I can't find the interview where GRRM said this) was because of the blood magic performed, and it was a one time deal. She is more heat resistant than others, but not completely heat/fire proof.

[lyvyathan]

Stark Winds, on 09 January 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

That being said, GRRM did say that Dany surviving the pyre that hatched her dragons (I can't find the interview where GRRM said this) was because of the blood magic performed, and it was a one time deal. She is more heat resistant than others, but not completely heat/fire proof.

That might be what he said sometime back ago. But authors can be fickle. And in the latest book there seems to be evidence to imply that she has stronger fire resistant qualities.