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3 Eyed Crow


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#1 mikeym

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 10:13 AM

Hi,

I'm just wondering if anyone else has come to the conclusion that the 3 eyed crow is literally a crow - Mormont's to be exact?

(warning minor spoiler from AFFC)

I reread AFFC fairly recently and found that one scene in particular peaked my suspicion. When Sam has organised the vote for leader of the nights watch and Mormont's raven bursts out of the Voting Kettle screeching "Snow". This seems terribly un-Raven/Crow like behaviour. The others blame Sam but he appears genuinely surprised.

The other tentative "clue" is that when the 3 Eyed Crow visits Bran one of the first things it does is asks for corn which as Maestar Aemon tells Jon is not the preferred food of a normal Raven. (I am somewhat fudging the distinction between ravens and crows here but I think this distinction is pretty fudged already in the ASOIAF series, and the raven is a member of the crow family.)

How this would work - I'm not sure: perhaps Animatism, or the raven could be controlled or occupied by a Warg.

I'd like to know your thoughts.


Anyway here's the quotes that made me suspect:

Jon shifted the bucket to his right hand and thrust his left down into the bloody bits. The ravens began to scream noisily and fly at the bars, beating at the metal with night-black wings. The meat had been chopped into pieces no larger than a finger joint. He filled his fist and tossed the raw red morsels into the cage, and the squawking and squabbling grew hotter.

Feathers flew as two of the larger birds fought over a choice piece. Quickly Jon grabbed a second handful and threw it in after the first. "Lord Mormont's raven likes fruit and corn."

"He is a rare bird," the maester said. "Most ravens will eat grain, but they prefer flesh. It makes them strong, and I fear they relish the taste of blood.

In that they are like men . . . and like men, not all ravens are alike."


"Help me," he said.

I'm trying, the crow replied. Say, got any corn?


The kettle was in the comer by the hearth, a big black potbellied thing with two huge handles and a heavy lid. Maester Aemon said a word to Sam and Clydas and they went and grabbed the handles and dragged the kettle over to the table. A few of the brothers were already queueing up by the token barrels as Clydas took the lid off and almost dropped it on his foot. With a raucous scream and a clap of wings, a huge raven burst out of the kettle. It flapped upward, seeking the rafters perhaps, or a window to make its escape, but there were no rafters in the vault, nor windows either. The raven was trapped.

Cawing loudly, it circled the hall, once, twice, three times. And Jon heard Samwell Tarly shout, "I know that bird! That's Lord Mormont's raven!"

The raven landed on the table nearest Jon. "Snow," it cawed. it was an old bird, dirty and bedraggled. "Snow," it said again, "Snow, snow, snow" It walked to the end of the table, spread its wings again, and flew to Jon's shoulder.

Lord Janos Slynt sat down so heavily he made a thump, but Ser Alliser filled the vault with mocking laughter. "Ser Piggy thinks we're all fools, brothers," he said.

"He's taught the bird this little trick. They all say snow, go up to the rookery and hear for yourselves. Mormont's bird had more words than that."


The raven cocked its head and looked at Jon. "Corn?" it said hopefully. When it got neither corn nor answer, it quorked and muttered, "Kettle? Kettle? Kettle?"

The rest was arrowheads, a torrent of arrowheads, a flood of arrowheads, arrowheads enough to drown the last few stones and shells, and all the copper pennies too.



#2 Dolorous J

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 10:50 AM

3 eyed crow refers to Benjen Stark , who is a crow and also has the ability to use his third eye (warg).

It's very possible that Benjen wargs through Mormont's bird...

#3 oxmix

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 11:42 AM

It seems likely that the three eyed crow is Bran. The major clue is that Bran means crow in Welsh. So the answer is hiding in plain sight. Bran (Crow) is on a journey to open his third eye.

This is further supported by the correlation between the seven Starks and the seven Westeros gods. Bran corresponds to the Crone, who is associated with seeing.

At least that is where the bread crumbs lead. If there is a sequel, we will see if the author agrees with me.

#4 mikeym

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 12:04 PM

It seems likely that the three eyed crow is Bran. The major clue is that Bran means crow in Welsh. So the answer is hiding in plain sight. Bran (Crow) is on a journey to open his third eye.This is further supported by the correlation between the seven Starks and the seven Westeros gods. Bran corresponds to the Crone, who is associated with seeing.At least that is where the bread crumbs lead. If there is a sequel, we will see if the author agrees with me.


I do like this interpretation that Bran is having a conversation with an aspect of himself, but I still think the actions or Mormont's Raven are more than a little suspicious, particularly during the NW vote but also throughout the series. Does Bran meet Mormont's raven at any point, could he be controlling it during the vote?

What suggestions do you have for the other Stark children's Deities? (Interesting idea but I'm not sure how well it maps in practice.)

3 eyed crow refers to Benjen Stark , who is a crow and also has the ability to use his third eye (warg).

It's very possible that Benjen wargs through Mormont's bird...


I suppose this is possible. We still know very little about Benjen, but there is also no evidence as of yet that Benjen is a Warg (except if you assume he's Coldhands then perhaps he's Warging that Elk :S ).

#5 Elysia

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 01:53 PM

I started another topic about 3EC, but it's failed.
My on theory is that 3EC is woman 8000 years old, she is on good side and know lots of Others because she met O. eye to eye.
Woman, because it will be nice twist to be woman when everyone else expects you to be man.

Edited by Lady Winter Rose, 01 October 2010 - 01:53 PM.


#6 oxmix

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 02:18 PM

What suggestions do you have for the other Stark children's Deities? (Interesting idea but I'm not sure how well it maps in practice.)


The most obvious one for the children is Arya/Stranger. She sometimes looks male, sometimes female. She sometimes rides a horse named Stranger. She is about ten years old and has killed so many people I lost count. She is an acolyte in a death cult. And her name means Stranger in ancient Sanskrit (although some have suggested it's not the best translation).

Sansa is the Maiden.

Robb is the Warrior.

Rickon is tricky, but by process of elimination he would be the Smith. So that should give us a clue as to Rickon's future, if he has one.

#7 mikeym

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 03:06 PM

The most obvious one for the children is Arya/Stranger. She sometimes looks male, sometimes female. She sometimes rides a horse named Stranger. She is about ten years old and has killed so many people I lost count. She is an acolyte in a death cult. And her name means Stranger in ancient Sanskrit (although some have suggested it's not the best translation).Sansa is the Maiden.Robb is the Warrior.Rickon is tricky, but by process of elimination he would be the Smith. So that should give us a clue as to Rickon's future, if he has one.


I had noted the Arya stranger connection in my generally keeping an eye out for personifications of the 7 in the series. Hadn't really thought to apply it to the whole stark family. Sansa, Rob and Ned work. Catelyn as the mother has gone a bit wrong, and Rickon is a bit of an unknown still. I like Bran as the crone. However I'm still a bit skeptical about applying this to the Starks any more that you can to any character in the series purely because they seem much more akin to the First Men so they should be governed by the old gods not the seven of the Andals.

I started another topic about 3EC, but it's failed.My on theory is that 3EC is woman 8000 years old, she is on good side and know lots of Others because she met O. eye to eye.Woman, because it will be nice twist to be woman when everyone else expects you to be man.


I wonder if in this scenario of yours if there is any connection with the 3 eyed crow(n) and Mormont's raven?

#8 Elysia

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 01:50 AM

I wonder if in this scenario of yours if there is any connection with the 3 eyed crow(n) and Mormont's raven?

3EC is 3-Eyed Crow. But, I don't think that's a Mormont's raven. M's raven is raven. The same as
Spoiler


#9 Edward the Great

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 01:55 AM

The 3 eyed crow is not Benjen. It is most likely Bloodraven, a Targaryen bastard who once served as Hand of the King, who it is generally inferred warged permanently out of his human form 100 years or so ago. Martin has written several side stories about him, IIRC.

I recently had an idea that I didn't really feel like starting a new thread for that is much more interesting than the OP.

I've never seen anybody ask how the direwolf pups wound up at Winterfell. Uh, the gods did it!

I suspect that Bloodraven was behind it. The only faint hint is some direwolf POV thinking in one of the books where it seams that there is some sort of compulsion on the direwolves.

#10 mikeym

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 03:29 AM

I recently had an idea that I didn't really feel like starting a new thread for that is much more interesting than the OP.


Sorry for the dull as dishwater post, but it was an angle on the 3 eyed crow discussion I'd not seen covered before.

Just like to point out that the person you suspect of being a permanent warg and the 3 eyed crow is called Bloodraven.

(Edward the Great, you seem to have read more about this than I have, where did you find the stories about Bloodraven?)

#11 Dimnara

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 04:34 AM

I think the 3EC is a long lost Brother of the Nightwatch with very strong warging abilities. Maybe Benjen is with him too, but I don't think that Benjen is the 3EC.

#12 Dolorous J

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 08:41 AM

I think the 3EC is a long lost Brother of the Nightwatch with very strong warging abilities. Maybe Benjen is with him too, but I don't think that Benjen is the 3EC.


Agreed . It's definitely someone fron the night's watch , because they are called "crows" , and warging is called " using your 3rd eye".

I think it's Benjen himself. That is why he helped Jon become Lord Commander when he came flying out of the voting pot, and Samwell did not know he was in there.

#13 mikeym

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 12:10 PM

Well, I've had a bit of a look into Brynden Rivers (Bloodraven). Most of his story appears to be advanced in the 2nd and 3rd Dunk and Egg stories (which I don't have). But looking at the link above I'm still unclear where you got the evidence he's a Warg from (unless that's just an educated guess). The link says that he was rumored to be a sorcerer but doesn't give a reference for it.

The only mention I was able to find in the 4 main ASOIAF novels was:

Egg wanted me to help him rule, but I knew my place was here. He sent me north aboard the Golden Dragon, and insisted that his friend Sir Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch. No recruit had arrived at the Wall with so much pomp since Nymeria sent the Watch six kings in golden fetters. Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander."
"Bloodraven?" said Dareon. "I know a song about him. 'A Thousand Eyes, and One,' it's called. But I thought he lived a hundred years ago."
"We all did. Once I was as young as you."


This does link Brynden with the Nights Watch Commander and with Ravens and with Eyes. (more)

Just on the origins of Mormont's Raven, it seems to be well know as belonging to the Lord Commander, but how long has it been there for? Here is the only hint I could find about the bird's age:

Cawing loudly, it circled the hall, once, twice, three times. And Jon heard
Samwell Tarly shout, "I know that bird! That's Lord Mormont's raven!"
The raven landed on the table nearest Jon. "Snow," it cawed. it was an old
bird, dirty and bedraggled
. "Snow," it said again, "Snow, snow, snow" It
walked to the end of the table, spread its wings again, and flew to Jon's
shoulder.


Edited by mikeym, 03 October 2010 - 12:45 PM.


#14 Guest_Other-in-Law_*

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 04:27 PM

But looking at the link above I'm still unclear where you got the evidence he's a Warg from (unless that's just an educated guess).

First, it's a grotesque exaggeration to say there were several side stories about Bloodraven. He's briefly mentioned in tSS, and briefly met in tMK. That said,
Spoiler

Edited by Other-in-Law, 03 October 2010 - 04:28 PM.


#15 mikeym

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 01:56 PM

Well I've found a few more quotes about Bloodraven. He does sound like an interesting character.

(Spoiler about the known history of Dunk the Tall)
Spoiler


I'm seeing why Edward the Great thought Bloodraven might have something to do with the Direwolves.

(Spoiler from The Sworn Sword)
Spoiler


It seems to me from some of his other quotes that this guy is the last person you'd want to have around a kid, so Bran my be on his way to trouble if he is the 3 eyed crow.

I still couldn't see where it says that Bloodraven Warged permanently out of his body:

(Spoiler The Sworn Sword)
Spoiler

Edited by mikeym, 04 October 2010 - 01:58 PM.


#16 Scion9

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 09:25 PM

Maester Aemon went north to the Wall with Bloodraven, and he has just passed on. Who knows what kind of longevity a disembodied warg has.

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 12:52 AM

I think Bloodraven is Coldhands, and has somehow survived being turned into a wight with his normal consciousness intact, either by his own sorecerous abilities, or through the intervention of the 3EC.

I think the 3EC is some last surviving Greenseer of the Children of the Forest. 3EC is very unlikely to be Benjen, since he would have had to have been the 3EC even when we first met him in Winterfell....Jojen Reed was visited by the 3EC several years before when he had Greywater Fever as a young child.

#18 Edward the Great

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 01:30 AM

I think Bloodraven is Coldhands, and has somehow survived being turned into a wight with his normal consciousness intact, either by his own sorecerous abilities, or through the intervention of the 3EC.


Nonsense.

Spoiler


Everyone else is assuming that Coldhands=3EC. I am the only one who says they are separate but related entities.

Edited by Edward the Great, 05 October 2010 - 01:33 AM.


#19 Guest_Other-in-Law_*

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 03:20 AM

Spoiler



Why ask questions that are answered in the post you quoted?

Everyone else is assuming that Coldhands=3EC. I am the only one who says they are separate but related entities.

Do you even read any one else's posts? Because that was even more foolish than usual for you.

Edited by Other-in-Law, 05 October 2010 - 03:23 AM.


#20 Sir Tobi

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 03:58 AM

Aemon went to the wall, when he was 30, so that was 70 years ago. Brynden Rivers was in his mid 40s at that time. He later bekame Lord Commander and ... lets say died at the age of 70 something, so that was 40 years ago.
Some of the tower-ravens of London are known to be 44 years old.
So its not far fetched to assume, that Lord Mormonts raven ist actually Bloodravens Raven. Even without any magic or westeros specific "especially smart and strong ravens" stunts.