aDwD - Only Five Chapters To Go?

[Sword of the Morning]

I don't know . . . I think we can only have one "Red Wedding" shocker per series. Any more and it'll just look lazy . . . like Martin doesn't know where to go with the series, has lost control of the series, and basically decides to kill a whole bunch of people to simplify things.

If he decided to do that, it wouldn't have taken 5 years to get Dance out . . .

Dennis

[Brienne the Beauty]

I don't know . . . I think we can only have one "Red Wedding" shocker per series. Any more and it'll just look lazy

Not a lot of important characters actually died for good in that particular event, for all the horror of it.

[Ser Nevarc]

...the King in the North died...

...a shitload of his bannermen...

...his mother (til later)...

...a huge portion of his army...

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

The Red Wedding wasn't all that shocking. I was on a previous version of this board before A Storm of Swords came out, and a lot of people predicted that Robb wouldn't survive A Storm of Swords.

[Werthead]

...the King in the North died...

...a shitload of his bannermen...

...his mother (til later)...

...a huge portion of his army...

Not sure about 'a shitload' of his bannermen. In fact, of the major lords most survived. Maege Mormont and whashisface Glover weren't there, the Greatjon and Edmure were imprisoned, and Roose Bolton turned traitor. A number of troops were killed but the majority surrendered once it was clear that the situation was pretty dire.

The Smalljon and Dacey's deaths were unfortunate and sad, but they weren't that major as players. Robb and Cat were the only truly important deaths at the Wedding, and Cat later returned.

[alguien]

Not sure about 'a shitload' of his bannermen. In fact, of the major lords most survived. Maege Mormont and whashisface Glover weren't there, the Greatjon and Edmure were imprisoned, and Roose Bolton turned traitor. A number of troops were killed but the majority surrendered once it was clear that the situation was pretty dire.

The Smalljon and Dacey's deaths were unfortunate and sad, but they weren't that major as players. Robb and Cat were the only truly important deaths at the Wedding, and Cat later returned.

Yeah, the Frey's didn't seem to have any compunction about killing off heirs but went to great lengths to take the bannermen alive.

I wonder if the killing off of heirs was at all deliberate, or just a necessity since they were Robb's shield?

[Gurkhal]

I think that the Freys thought something like this: If we take the heads of the Houses alive we can force them to obey us - If they die a new head can be appointed and cause us problems. But regarding heirs I think that if they are taken alive, fine, but if it gets problematic - kill them and remain safe rather than sorry.

I may remember it wrong but don't at least some of the Riverlords besiging Riverrun in AFFC mentions relatives held captured at the Twins?

I did not know that troops surrender and thought they were pretty much killed off. Anyone have more info about that?

[Brienne the Beauty]

...the King in the North died...

The only major character that died and stayed dead. It was written in a shocking way, but to be honest, other fantasies have managed to kill off a main character or two. The clever thing here was that Rob seemed to have oodles of plot importance. His death cut off a lot of potential plot, which was good for the eventual size of the series.

[Mickey2093]

Just to bring it back for a moment to the delay between books...

Mr. Martin has shown himself to be a perfectionist of a sort. This for the most part is a good thing - it has been the foundation for the creation of four intense, large, and wonderfully crafted books in an incredibly complex, well-developed world with extensive characters and unmatched character development (in my humble opinion, of course).

Now here is my concern...

The delay betwen affc and adwd has been what - 5 1/2 years so far? something like that, anyway. being the perfectionist he is, and his fanbase knowing that, the expectations rise with every delay. At this point, the book is going to need to outshine all four of the previous installments just to keep up with them. I can see this being a major stress factor for Mr. Martin. Indeed - the delays at this point could very well be him trying to ensure that every single word is perfect, just so that the book doesn't fall short of expectations - expectations which continue to rise with each delay. His only hope, as far as I can see, is to quickly find the middleground between the perfection he desires, and the quality that the fanbase will accept without feeling shortchanged. I truly hope that the 5 chapters remaining is true, and that he can get through them quickly - not just because I want to read the book, but because if this goes on much longer, I don't see how anything short of a miracle would make the book stand up to expectations.

i dunno - like i said, just my humble opinion, but it does worry me from time to time...

[mikeym]

Stumbled across this the other day and felt like it could have been written for George:

1 Write.

2 Put one word after another. Find the right word, put it down.

3 Finish what you're writing. Whatever you have to do to finish it, finish it.

4 Put it aside. Read it pretending you've never read it before. Show it to friends whose opinion you respect and who like the kind of thing that this is.

5 Remember: when people tell you something's wrong or doesn't work for them, they are almost always right. When they tell you exactly what they think is wrong and how to fix it, they are almost always wrong.

6 Fix it. Remember that, sooner or later, before it ever reaches perfection, you will have to let it go and move on and start to write the next thing. Perfection is like chasing the horizon. Keep moving.

7 Laugh at your own jokes.

8 The main rule of writing is that if you do it with enough assurance and confidence, you're allowed to do whatever you like. (That may be a rule for life as well as for writing. But it's definitely true for writing.) So write your story as it needs to be written. Write it honestly, and tell it as best you can. I'm not sure that there are any other rules. Not ones that matter.

Especially 1-3 and 6

[Brienne the Beauty]

GRRM has been writing for longer than most of us have been alive. I'm sure he knows what works for him.

It is certainly disappointing that this series might not get finished, but if the inspiration is not coming fast enough, how can he force it?

[TheFinn]

I remember reading this forum on my honeymoon while my wife was having a lazy afternoon nap in a Costa Rica bungalow where monkeys were chattering in mellow late noon heat.

I read it after my twins were born and I was trying to get them to sleep at 4 AM.

I read it after my son was born and briefly considered naming him Jon without telling my wife why.

Now my twins have just started school and THIS DAMN BOOK MAY FINALLY COME OUT.

If it is not slightly better than the Feast of Crows I am possibly going to cry a bit.

I am hoping for another SoS even though I know how unlikely hitting that quality peak is.

[Mickey2093]

I remember reading this forum on my honeymoon while my wife was having a lazy afternoon nap in a Costa Rica bungalow where monkeys were chattering in mellow late noon heat.

I read it after my twins were born and I was trying to get them to sleep at 4 AM.

I read it after my son was born and briefly considered naming him Jon without telling my wife why.

Now my twins have just started school and THIS DAMN BOOK MAY FINALLY COME OUT.

If it is not slightly better than the Feast of Crows I am possibly going to cry a bit.

I am hoping for another SoS even though I know how unlikely hitting that quality peak is.

I am absolutely with you on this one - the emotional investment in waiting and in the growing expectation of substance and quality is taking its toll... I'm looking at at least a minor breakdown if it's not right up there...

[TheValyrianDragonlord]

I'm going to do a reread of the series just before the book comes out. But not just to reacquaint myself with parts of the story i forgot but also to dispel some of the nostalgia that I feel for the previous books. I want to make sure I know exactly what the strengths and weaknesses of the previous books are before making comparisons with the new book. And yeah, the disappointment would be crushing.

[Werthead]

Interesting to see if Ran asked GRRM about the five chapters thing in Belfast.

Amusingly, if ADWD isn't done by around late March or early April, it would have taken longer to write than the entire duration of WWII. I wonder if George wound find the comparison with battling the Knot and the timeline apt :)

[Sword of the Morning]

Emotional investment?

How about in 2012 when A Memory of Light comes out to end the Wheel of Time. I've only been reading that series for 20 years out of my 35 on this Earth . . .

Dennis

[Ran]

I did ask about it, and George confirmed that he presently has five chapters left to complete... but yes, it was not something he would himself have announced, since his chapters have a habit of multiplying like especially horny rabbits.

He said he wished people remembered his posts from a few months ago where he had one "Fred" chapter left, and it became two "Fred" chapters, and then three "Fred" chapters, and yeah, he has two of those done, but he wasn't still done with "Fred" (I'll stress the past tense here, I didn't get into asking him about that specific example).

So ... five chapters now, who knows later? He's hopeful that it really is the light at the end of the tunnel now, but he's more aware than everyone how his hopes may sometimes prove to be ... well, wrong. That's why he doesn't like giving estimates or specific data, because he just can't trust that how it seems now will be how it turns out, and it's an added stress for him that updates like "five chapters left" lead to these enthusiasm expectations that prove to be unrealistic in the end.

I think it weighs on him a lot, actually, and he made no bones about the fact that, yes, it is long, long overdue.

[Lord of Starfall]

Is the manuscript being discussed even a final draft? I was under the impression that there would be at least 6 months (probably more, given the speed everything else has gone at) of editing and revisions before publishing even started. I'm not holding my breath yet. Maybe Christmas of next year.

[Ran]

Chapters that are locked in have already been edited and a lot of the layout work has, apparently, been done. GRRM sends his editors things as they are completed. So the expectation is they can turn around the finished manuscript into a published book in about 3 months, give or take, if they really want to go all-out.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Guys, why you even talking when the next book will be done when he written around 1450 and he is not allowed to write more than 1536 MP. There are several options:

1) He is going to publish the Dance without specific end

2) He is got permission to write more than 1536 pages (aSoS)

3) Unfinished character would not appear in Dance

4) He would split parted book (Dance)

1) and 2) are more liked, but in some country (like my) aSoS come around 1056 and to me it would be problem if Dance come similar long, or longer. I wouldn't read that book, or at least not right away. It would be too big.