The Height Hierarchy

[The Holy Goat]

Nobody is keenly aware of of a difference of an inch. It feels like you're the same height when you're standing next to someone and talking, you don't normally look at the mirror to check the hairlines and see who's taller, unless you're really trying to ascertain who's taller in the first place. And it changes depending on the shoes you're wearing that day.

Young men and young men's growing slows down when they reach sexual maturity. Loras is not in the early stages of adolescence and if he's growing, he's going to grow only minimally.

He unhorsed Gregor because Gregor's stallion was horny.

I vehemently disagree. I can instantly tell whenever someone I'm talking to is taller than me or shorter, be it by three inches or merely a third of an inch. And of course the shoes matter. What kind of foll loks at a persons shoes when in a conversation (except for Podrick Payne). Even so, that is no reason to dismiss Sansa or Catelyns opinion regarding the respective heights of Catelyn, Lysa or Petyr. It's not like high heels or and very thick soles were common back then.

The average age at which men stop growing is between 16 and 20 (it varies from preson to person). Loras was 17 the last time his height was compared to anyone, and both his father and older brother has been described as respectable in size. I don't see why he hasn't grown since then.

But unhorsing him would not be a simple matter of skill even so. Loras would need a fair deal of strenght to unhorse a man the size of the Mountain that Rides without being thrown of himself. Taking that away from him would be doing him an inservice and simplyfing the matters wastly.

:rofl:

Do you live on another planet perhaps? An alternate Earth with an alternate Europe? Because, if you live on Earth... nope, the average height in definitely not 5'11" or 6'0" for men nor 5'6" or 5'7" for women "in most European countries".

As a matter of fact, I happen to live in a "diminutive European country" that's listed on Wikipedia as the 3rd tallest country in the entire world by male height, and the average male height is listed as 182 cm (5 feet 11 1/2 inches). Average female height is 166.8 cm (5 ft 5 1/2 inches). And I can tell you that, when I see a 6'2" guy, I still think he's really tall.

The only two countries with the average male height listed as 6' or approximate, are Netherlands and Montenegro. Those are also the only two countries in the entire world with the average female height of 5'7" and 5'6 1/2", respectively.

Every other country is below that, more or less. And it's only in Netherlands, the Nordic countries and the Dinaric Alps region you'll find average heights around 5'11" for men and 5'6" for women.

And those measures are all recent - younger generations are getting taller. Just couple of decades ago, people were much shorter.

Even today, these are the average heights listed for some of the other European and non-European countries:

Austria - 179.2 cm (5' 10 1/2"). 167.6 cm (5'6")

Belgium - 178.6 cm (5' 10 1⁄2"), 168.1 cm (5'6")

Spain - 178 cm (5'10"), 166.2 cm (5'5")

USA - 177.6 cm (a bit shorter than 5'10"), 163.2 cm (5' 4 1⁄2")

Australia - 177.8 cm (5' 10"), 163.8 cm (5' 4 1⁄2") - measured in 2011/2012

France - 177 cm (5' 9 1⁄2"), 164.6 cm (5' 5") - measured in 2001

Ireland - 177 cm (5' 9 1⁄2"), 163 cm (5' 4") - measured in 2007

UK (England) - 175.3 cm (5' 9"), 161.9 cm (5' 3 1⁄2")

Hungary - 176 cm (5'9 1⁄2"), 164 cm (5' 4 1⁄2")

Russia - 176 cm (5' 9 1⁄2"), 164 cm (5' 4 1⁄2")

Italy - 177.2 cm (5'10"), 167.8 cm (5'6") - self-reported in 2001; or 174.5 cm (5' 8 1⁄2"), 162 cm (5' 4") - measured in 2005, but only on people aged 18-40

Canada - 175.1 cm (5' 9"), 162.3 cm (5' 4") for people aged 18-79

Greece - 177.29 cm (5' 10") - a 2010 estimate for men

Bulgaria - 175.2 cm (5'9"), 163.2 cm (5' 4 1⁄2")

Romania - 172 cm (5' 7 1⁄2"), 157 cm (5' 2") - measured in 2007

Portugal - 171 cm (5' 7 1⁄2"), 161 cm (5' 3 1⁄2") - self-reported in 2001, for people aged 20-50; av. male height estimated at 172.30 cm (5' 8") in 2010

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Average_height_around_the_world

You are indeed correct abuout the average height in each country. My pardons. I was referring to the native European etnicities though (which most Westerosi are based on, barring som of the Dornish who seem to have South-Asian (?) influences). Did you take into account that almost all European have large populations of non-European immigrants, few of which equals the native European etnicities in height, at least not the new arrivals who haven't grown up with the same chances for nutrition and healthcare (hence lowering the average)? And did you take into account which countries in Europe are poorer. If you do, then you might notice that the further south you go, the shorter the people get, which goes hand in hand with the economic situations. So my opinion regarding the average height of Europeans (or European ethnicities, to be precise) is still the same.

And I still don't understad how you can consider 6'2" "really tall". No matter how I twist it, it seems like either you are diminutive in size, or your family is - either could lead to such a reaction. All in all it's subjective however. I I hear about someone tall I think "oh, so two-three inches above average then?", and if I hear about someone really tall I think "oh, so close to six-and-a-half feet then?".

That's not just "really tall" or even "very tall", that's "super-tall". That's "NBA center tall".

That's subjective, I suppose.

[Annara Snow]

I vehemently disagree. I can instantly tell whenever someone I'm talking to is taller than me or shorter, be it by three inches or merely a third of an inch. And of course the shoes matter. What kind of foll loks at a persons shoes when in a conversation (except for Podrick Payne). Even so, that is no reason to dismiss Sansa or Catelyns opinion regarding the respective heights of Catelyn, Lysa or Petyr. It's not like high heels or and very thick soles were common back then.

The average age at which men stop growing is between 16 and 20 (it varies from preson to person). Loras was 17 the last time his height was compared to anyone, and both his father and older brother has been described as respectable in size. I don't see why he hasn't grown since then.

At the age, men can only grow a bit, about an inch or something. Most of the growing happens in early adolescence, before full sexual maturity. Once an adolescent fully develops sexually, the growth rate slows down dramatically.

But unhorsing him would not be a simple matter of skill even so. Loras would need a fair deal of strenght to unhorse a man the size of the Mountain that Rides without being thrown of himself. Taking that away from him would be doing him an inservice and simplyfing the matters wastly.

You are indeed correct abuout the average height in each country. My pardons. I was referring to the native European etnicities though (which most Westerosi are based on, barring som of the Dornish who seem to have South-Asian (?) influences). Did you take into account that almost all European have large populations of non-European immigrants, few of which equals the native European etnicities in height, at least not the new arrivals who haven't grown up with the same chances for nutrition and healthcare (hence lowering the average)? And did you take into account which countries in Europe are poorer. If you do, then you might notice that the further south you go, the shorter the people get, which goes hand in hand with the economic situations. So my opinion regarding the average height of Europeans (or European ethnicities, to be precise) is still the same.

And I still don't understad how you can consider 6'2" "really tall". No matter how I twist it, it seems like either you are diminutive in size, or your family is - either could lead to such a reaction. All in all it's subjective however. I I hear about someone tall I think "oh, so two-three inches above average then?", and if I hear about someone really tall I think "oh, so close to six-and-a-half feet then?".

No, I am not diminutive in size and neither is my family. We're average height. Though you'll probably tell me that 164 cm (that would be 5'4 1/2", I guess) is "diminutive" because the average female height is 5'9" or something.

I consider 6'2" really tall (as opposed to something that can relatively be considered tall but not by everyone, like 6' for men) because it's considered tall anywhere other than basketball. Even now.

In medieval times? Back then it would be considered super-tall, more likely. Did you take into account that the human race has gotten much taller than just a few decades ago? Did you take into account that people were much shorter than today in medieval times? No noble or king in Middle Ages had nearly the life conditions we have today. It's incomparable.

If you want a historical example - Edward I of England was 6'2" and was known for his exceptional height, which is how he got the nickname "Longshanks". Edward IV was about 6'4" and was the tallest of all English and Scottish monarchs in history.

[The Fallen]

Average height for a male in the U.S. is 5'9''. Six feet is unofficially the yardstick for tall. 5'11'' would make you kind of tall and not short, since it's close to 6'.

There is also a noticeable difference between a guy who is 6' and one who is 6'2'', so yes, two inches is very noticeable.

For women, 5'7'' is already on the tall side, never mind 5'10''-11'', which is definitely tall for a woman.

I would say that anything 6'4''-6'' for a male is on the really tall side, with guys 6'8'' or taller being giants, for all intents and purposes.

[The Holy Goat]

At the age, men can only grow a bit, about an inch or something. Most of the growing happens in early adolescence, before full sexual maturity. Once an adolescent fully develops sexually, the growth rate slows down dramatically.

No, I am not diminutive in size and neither is my family. We're average height. Though you'll probably tell me that 164 cm (that would be 5'4 1/2", I guess) is "diminutive" because the average female height is 5'9" or something.

I consider 6'2" really tall (as opposed to something that can relatively be considered tall but not by everyone, like 6' for men) because it's considered tall anywhere other than basketball. Even now.

In medieval times? Back then it would be considered super-tall, more likely. Did you take into account that the human race has gotten much taller than just a few decades ago? Did you take into account that people were much shorter than today in medieval times? No noble or king in Middle Ages had nearly the life conditions we have today. It's incomparable.

If you want a historical example - Edward I of England was 6'2" and was known for his exceptional height, which is how he got the nickname "Longshanks". Edward IV was about 6'4" and was the tallest of all English and Scottish monarchs in history.

Might be so, but it's unknown how far Loras had gotten in his growth at seventeen.

Actually, it's a myth that people were much shorter in medieval times than they are now. In reality they were a couple of inches shorter than todays average, at most. Europeans were awfully short during Napoleons time however, though Napoleon himself was of average height.

[Ser Lepus]

Might be so, but it's unknown how far Loras had gotten in his growth at seventeen.

Actually, it's a myth that people were much shorter in medieval times than they are now. In reality they were a couple of inches shorter than todays average, at most. Europeans were awfully short during Napoleons time however, though Napoleon himself was of average height.

Medieval people were quite shorter than modern people, but not as short as they were believed to be some time ago.

Some time ago some experts committed many mistakes when calculating the height of Medieval people, and came to the conclusion that they were almost dwarfs.

They were wrong, of course. But medieval people still were short when compared to XXI century people. Modern Europeans are on average four inches taller than during the Middle Ages, and six inches taller than their Napoleonic counterparts (the difference is way smaller for nobles).

What you have to take into account is, people hasn't been growing all the time since the Middle Ages, they grow higher when they get better fed, and average height stabilizes afterwards. And sometimes they become shorter due to poor nutrition.

People became shorter from 1750 to 1850, The real growth spurt happened around 1850, when the advances in tech were applied to agriculture, making food plentiful in Europe.

Spaniards' average height, for example, grew four inches during the XX century, but the British have grown barely one inch. That is because the British started the century having a better nutrition

[The Holy Goat]

Medieval people were quite shorter than modern people, but not as short as they were believed to be some time ago.

Some time ago some experts committed many mistakes when calculating the height of Medieval people, and came to the conclusion that they were almost dwarfs.

They were wrong, of course. But medieval people still were short when compared to XXI century people. Modern Europeans are on average four inches taller than during the Middle Ages, and six inches taller than their Napoleonic counterparts (the difference is way smaller for nobles).

What you have to take into account is, people hasn't been growing all the time since the Middle Ages, they grow higher when they get better fed, and average height stabilizes afterwards. And sometimes they become shorter due to poor nutrition.

People became shorter from 1750 to 1850, The real growth spurt happened around 1850, when the advances in tech were applied to agriculture, making food plentiful in Europe.

Spaniards' average height, for example, grew four inches during the XX century, but the British have grown barely one inch. That is because the British started the century having a better nutrition

The average medieval man was at least 172 cm / 5'8" tall (some estimate 175 cm/5'9" for scandinavians). That's one or two inches shorter than average in Europe today (counting immigrants, though).

The average napoleonic man by contrast was around 165 cm / 5'5" tall (Napoleon himself 168 cm / 5'6").

[Deadwood]

Ok, he's impossible.

So are dragons, oh look the books stop mattering.

Just rank the heights, and list them if you think you have a rough guess, good lord.

Gregor isn't impossible. There have been others of his size. Angus has been mentioned, the Childe of Hale, also that pic of that muscular fella (not a basketball player) who makes Shaq O'Neil look like a boy.

I think we should just stick to characters specifically outlined as tall: Gregor, Robert, Brienne, Dunc, Laughing Storm, Victarion, Andrik, Greatjon and Hodor. Please note that, realistically, in a medieval setting, 5'10" is pretty tall. Jaime could be that height and would have been considered tall then. Not that ASoIaF is all that realistically medieval...

The aristocracy has always been large and powerful. It was routine for them to be over 6 feet tall, when lower classes would be tiny in comparison. Many kings of England were over 6 feet, some children exceptionally large, like the 7 foot Duke of Clarence. Access to protein rich meals and constant training made them all like rugby stars.

[Deadwood]

I think a lot of these heights are being overestimated. It just seems highly improbable that there are so many tall people, especially given that this is the medieval ages. The tallest person I know is 6'5; I only know about ten or fifteen people who are over six feet. So what's the probability that ASOIAF would have a half-dozen characters who are over 6'6?

I'd put the Mountain at around 7 feet, and push everyone else down proportionally. The really tall people (Hound, Brienne, Robert) are probably around 6'4.

Considering it's the aristocracy that we are dealing with, it's highly likely and quite accurate.

[Deadwood]

Seeing how the Mountain makes men look like children next to him and is nearly 8 foot tall (about as high as a 6 foot person could reach) even lowering everyone's heights he's well above 6'5'' Certainly more than an inch taller than his brother, Sandor is taller than most, but Gregor is in a league of his own.

I didn't say there weren't average height people around, just that there aren't many short. Nutrition is of course important but genetics sets the upper limit, the British Royal family were short for years. Besides we get tall lower class guys: Dunk (spent most of his youth on the streets, then travelling around with a poor Hedge Knight) and he's huge, Small Paul is large and lower class, as is Grenn.

Which part? The Plantagenets were tall, the Tudors were tall.

[Nihlus]

A recent find:

And yet, when Renly cut away her torn cloak and fastened a rainbow in its place, Brienne of Tarth did not look unfortunate. Her smile lit up her face, and her voice was strong and proud as she said, "My life for yours, Your Grace. From this day on, I am your shield, I swear it by the old gods and the new." The way she looked at the king - looked down at him, she was a good hand higher,"

-A Clash Of Kings, Catelyn III

It is known that Brienne is Robert's height. Robert has a confirmed height of 6'6, according to Ned. A "hand" is four inches. Therefore, Renly is 6'2.

[Deadwood]

Nice working out. Possibly even less since it was a 'good' hand.

------------------

The books heights are written down. The cast harbours some giants, I was idly wondering on the top ten, and I reckon the shortest person in the top ten would be 6'6".

[Nihlus]

Nice working out. Possibly even less since it was a 'good' hand.

------------------

The books heights are written down. The cast harbours some giants, I was idly wondering on the top ten, and I reckon the shortest person in the top ten would be 6'6".

The TV show heights, you mean? In which case, the top ten to my knowledge are:

1. Neil Fingleton: 7'7.5

2. Ian Whyte: 7'1

3. Conan Stevens: 7'0

4. Kristian Nairn: 6'9

5. Hafthor Julis Bjornsson: 6'8

6. Clive Russel: 6'6

7. Clive Mantle: 6'5.5

8. Rory McCann: 6'5

9. Yuri Kolokolnikov: 6'5

10. Nonso Anozie: 6'5

[Deadwood]

The TV show heights, you mean? In which case, the top ten to my knowledge are:

1. Neil Fingleton: 7'7.5

2. Ian Whyte: 7'1

3. Conan Stevens: 7'0

4. Kristian Nairn: 6'9

5. Hafthor Julis Bjornsson: 6'8

6. Clive Russel: 6'6

7. Clive Mantle: 6'5.5

8. Rory McCann: 6'5

9. Yuri Kolokolnikov: 6'5

10. Jason Momoa: 6'4

Yeah the cast heights...multiple actors for same part allowed. The big merchant from S2 and the new guy who plays Areo, push Jason and Yuri out.

I look at celebheights for heights, but an inch variance seems fair.

edit.

http://www.celebheights.com/s/Nonso-Anozie-47671.html

[Nihlus]

Yeah the cast heights...multiple actors for same part allowed. The big merchant from S2 and the new guy who plays Areo, push Jason and Yuri out.

I look at celebheights for heights, but an inch variance seems fair.

edit.

http://www.celebheights.com/s/Nonso-Anozie-47671.html

Oh yeah, I forgot about Nonso.

I use celebheights usually, too. I sometimes disagree with their estimates, though, Rory being a big example (as Ali Baba points out, and shows via photos, he's probably just 6'4.5... 6'5 was just me being generous, and because I know someone will start an argument if I don't place him in the top ten tallest, even though with Areo now he should be #11). If they don't have a celeb up there, I typically just go with the "subtract 1 inch from the claim" rule, which works out pretty well for most people.

Yep, that's why I counted the three Gregors. They're all in the top five. Nairn is taller than Thor, while Neil (Mag the Mighty) is taller than EVERYBODY, by a lot. He's more than half a foot taller than #2, Ian!

[Deadwood]

Oh yeah, I forgot about Nonso.

I use celebheights usually, too. I sometimes disagree with their estimates, though, Rory being a big example (as Ali Baba points out, and shows via photos, he's probably just 6'4.5... 6'5 was just me being generous, and because I know someone will start an argument if I don't place him in the top ten tallest, even though with Areo now he should be #11). If they don't have a celeb up there, I typically just go with the "subtract 1 inch from the claim" rule, which works out pretty well for most people.

Yep, that's why I counted the three Gregors. They're all in the top five. Nairn is taller than Thor, while Neil (Mag the Mighty) is taller than EVERYBODY, by a lot. He's more than half a foot tall than #2, Ian!

I mostly go with Celebjeights, but yeah, it is not 100% accurate. I am not sure about Rory, the variance is large. I'd have to meet him first. Yuri's not on there but I think he self identifies as 6'5 so 6'4 is possible if he is the same as Jason. I didn't realise Nairn was taller than Thor, but after checking on CH I see it's so.

[thi4f]

Sandor couldn't be shorter than 6'10" imho. People look like children around Gregor Clegane, who is closer to 8 than 7 feet (anywhere from 7'6" to 7'11", 230 to 240 cm range), but Sandor is an exception. I don't have books here, but I believe such comparison was made during Tourney. A man shorter than 6'10" wouldn't look like a worthy enemy next to The Mountain. Thus, I imagine Sandor to be 6'10" or 6'11", which is in 208-211 cm range.

They would look like Dirk Nowitzki and Gheorghe Muresan standing next to each other, although much, much stronger.

Or, if we scale all characters down, like Karl Malone next to Shaquille O'Neal :)

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

The average medieval man was at least 172 cm / 5'8" tall (some estimate 175 cm/5'9" for scandinavians). That's one or two inches shorter than average in Europe today (counting immigrants, though).

The average napoleonic man by contrast was around 165 cm / 5'5" tall (Napoleon himself 168 cm / 5'6").

In Scandinavia it seems to have been 170-173 cm depending on region, according to an article by a Swedish medieval history professor I read in a newspaper a while back.

It should also be said that height isn't just caused by diet and genetics. General health also plays a part, particularly how exposed you are to diseases and illnesses as a child. Hence medieval (and other period) upper class members weren't usually as tall on average as modern people either, though they might still have been taller than their commoner countrymen.

[Annara Snow]

Which part? The Plantagenets were tall, the Tudors were tall.

I'm guessing they meant the current Royal family, not medieval and Renaissance kings. Queen Victoria was short (5' aka 152 cm), though her husband Prince Albert was tall. Edward VII, George V, Edward VIII and George VI were all below average height (though they may not look short in photos due to being of slim build), queen Elizabeth II is also not tall. Prince Charles is of average height, his sons are tall like their mother, the late Diana.

[Annara Snow]

Again about the average heights. I didn't even notice this in an old post:

She would probably be considered on the shorter side even if she were a peasant.

The average height for a lowborn man in the real life middle ages was around 5'8" - 5'9" (173-175 cm) I imagine that is not so different from what it is for a lowborn man in Westeros. I imagine women were between 5'3" (160 cm) and 5'5" (165 cm) on average. They were not as short as many believe, and the nobles were probably between 5'10" (178 cm) and 5'11" (180 cm) on average. People over six feet was probably nothing special for the nobles, and even among commoners it was probably a fairly common sight. They were very short during the Napoleonic wars though and the century before and after, only 5'5" (165 cm) for men...

What? Where?! Where did you get those stats from?

5'8" - 5'9" (173-175 cm) is average height for men today in most European countries and USA, it's lower in some other parts of the world. There are only a handful of countries (Netherlands, countries from the Dinaric area like Montenegro, Serbia, Croatia, Nordic countries...) where average height for men today is higher than that and close to 6' or around 6'.

In the real life Middle Ages, the average heights are now judged to have been about 2 inches or 5 cm lower than that. In the British Isles at least, it's believed the average height for men overall was around 5'7" (170 cm). For a lowborn men, it would have certainly been somewhat lower than that. For a noble, somewhat higher. Even the nobles were not as tall on average as people today, since their nutrition and life standards were still lower than today, and no way were lowborn people in the Middle Ages the same average height as people today!

[Jon Fossoway]

Dacey Mormont: 6 feet tall, or 183cms if you prefer.