Fantasy romance novels

[LugaJetboyGirl]

A book doesn't have to be a romance (as in romance novel) to be very romantic. In fact, most romance novels probably aren't very romantic, because the definitions of 'romance/romantic' used in those phrases are very different. Yes, both the Bitterbynde and Farseer/Tawny Man are very romantic, in the sense of a tale that is heroic/wistful/tragic/fantastic.

Um, well, as far as I remember, having read the Bitterbynde Trilogy repeatedly, the romance story is pretty much central to all three books. This is not the case in the Farseer Trilogy, where romance - as in the love stories - is just stuff that happens with some of the characters. Bitterbynde is first and foremost a love story, with a good mix of folklore, coming-of-age and adventure thrown in for good measure.

If you think it unjust that I only derided Dart-Thornton and not Marillier for this flaw, I think it unjust that you assume I have implied any opinion on Marillier, whom I have not read.

It's unjust that you brought injustice into this. I was not implying anything, dude.

[emberling]

Apologies. I have only read Bitterbynde the once, and I hated it (all the more so because it pushed so many buttons that made me want to like it). I remember a story that was by far and away a journey of self-discovery, centered on the theme of the main character reinventing herself/being reinvented so many times. I also remember meeting the love interest well into the series, specifically after at least three of these reinventions that I can remember off the top of my head. It's possible that he appeared earlier in another guise and was not apparent on a first read; it's the kind of story that one might expect to do that. But as my recollection of the books are unreliable, take from my comments only the fact that I hated them, primarily because the faerie lore overload added nothing but an annoyance, and secondarily because of *spoilers redacted*; and the reminder that hate is a strong emotion, and much higher praise than the scorn or indifference that would be earned by a poorly-written book.

[Grack21]

I liked the first two Bitterbynde books a lot, but I HATED the third one. The faerie lore completely overcame the story, plus the plot went absolutely nowhere, adn that ending....blech. :P

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

How has nobody mentioned Gor yet? :stunned:

(Seriously, though, I am unsurprisingly with Luga on this. Reading a romance novel isn't a guarantee into my pants. But mocking them and calling all readers stupid or misguided is pretty much a guarantee that you'll never make it in. I'm glad to see someone at least trying them before condemning a whole genre. Especially when there are so many levels and styles and whatnot. It'd be like reading, well, a Gor book and writing off all of spec-fic.)

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

I personally think romance novels are simple and formulaic, in the same manner as crime or thriller novels. Doesn't mean people who read them are stupid though. Its perfectly understandable why people would enjoy reading them. I read simple stuff too, just not in the romance genre.

Back in the day when I worked in a Borders bookstore, as the new guy I was placed in charge of the romance section, ensuring much subsequent hilarity (I had to offer literary analysis to middle aged women without appearing totally ignorant).

[Liadin]

Back in the day when I worked in a Borders bookstore, as the new guy I was placed in charge of the romance section, ensuring much subsequent hilarity (I had to offer literary analysis to middle aged women without appearing totally ignorant).

They put men in charge of the romance section? Men who didn't read romance? Is this how bookstore work assignments are usually made?

On the romantic vs romance novel thing: I'd certainly agree that you'll find plenty of romantic stuff outside the romance genre, and also that I've read more romantic books that weren't actual romance novels. But that's largely a function of what I like; I prefer romantic subplots in other books to romance novels because I find it more romantic minus the navel-gazing.

At any rate, I agree that it's great for Jaerv to go out and try a romance novel, but I really think he should make an effort to find something well-written. If he reads Twilight or something trashy about a time-traveling Viking Highland sheik, he's likely to come away with the impression that romance just sucks. Something more along the lines of Outlander sounds like a much better idea than picking up a random Nora Roberts.

[Rimmer]

Point taken except that I see Fitz is essentially a romantic character, deeply ruled by his emotions to those around him, notably Molly, and accordingly I view Farseer and other Hobbs books as being more "romantic" than your standard fantasy series. That was what I had in mind with my recommendation. Thanks for providing a counterpoint.

Rob

Great description. Can anyone recommend other good fantasy series that are 'more romantic than standard', with at least a very good romantic sub-plot? I really enjoy Farseer's slow pace - a huge chunk of the books is just day-in-the-life type stuff, but it always stayed interesting.

I haven't read her Solider's Sun trilogy yet, with the mixed reviews, but I should probably give it a chance. I can acknowledge the flaws people talk about in her first three trilogys dragged at times, but I still loved them.

Daniel Abraham's series would probably fit too, though I'm sure Hobb would've fit in twice as many pages at least if she'd written it.

I would also quite like to read something with more focus on the romance than those two series, if anyone has any good suggestions. I just don't want to head into the constant-freaky-sex-scene type level of focus here, which is what I'm scared of when I see the words fantasy and romance together (and I do realise that I know nothing about the genre). I read the first Kushiel book, and that's probably too much for me (though the characters and story also bored me a bit).

[lady narcissa]

I’m really disappointed in the pithy comments that keep creeping up in this thread regarding romance novels and how they are shitty and trashy. I guess I expected better from readers of a genre that is itself on the receiving end of similar condescending remarks from readers of other genres and “literature”.

This is sort of like high school all over again. You know when the band geeks try to make themselves feel better by criticizing the science nerds. Except that’s not a really appropriate analogy because if we are going to resort to stereotypes I’d have to say it sounds like people think romance readers are more the equivalent of cheerleaders – i.e. naïve, stupid...generally unable to recognize a well written book even if it hits them on their nose job.

But let’s deal with the facts instead of stereotyping everything. And it’s a fact that the romance genre is like any other. Within it there are good books and there are bad books. Sometimes, as in any other genre, bad ones sell a lot of copies and get a lot of press and give people the wrong impression of the genre. But there are plenty of good ones.

I can certainly accept and appreciate that not everyone wants to read a novel where the focus is on two people falling in love. But if you are one of those people, please do not demean and stereotype an entire genre simply because it isn’t your taste or you read a poor example.

It really saddens me when readers of one genre feel the need to criticize another genre. We might enjoy reading about different subjects but at the end of the day we are all readers. And reading is something that should bring people together and take them beyond the stereotypes of high school, not reinforce them.

[Grogsmash]

Great description. Can anyone recommend other good fantasy series that are 'more romantic than standard', with at least a very good romantic sub-plot?

I think the best fantasy writer with romantic subplots in her books is Louis Mcmaster Bujold. One thing she does well is show why each character is in love with the other, whereas in many other fantasy and sci-books with romance as a subplot, it is more one-sided.

Shards of Honor and Barrayar are very good and have more romance than normal sci fi.

Komarr and A Civil Campaign also include a strong romantic subplot between the two books.

The Sharing Knife series is 4 books long and was written to be a 50/50 mix of romance and fantasy. This upset some of her fantasy fans that didn't like the increase in romance compared to her other books, but I think it is incredibly touching at times. I highly recommend this series if you want an equal mix of the two.

[MattD]

Can anyone recommend other good fantasy series that are 'more romantic than standard', with at least a very good romantic sub-plot? I really enjoy Farseer's slow pace - a huge chunk of the books is just day-in-the-life type stuff, but it always stayed interesting.

They've been mentioned already, but Bujold's fantasties are pretty good taken as a whole and have strong romantic elements--particularly the Sharing Knife books (there are plenty of Hobb-like slice of life moments in those), but also The Spirit Ring and the Chalion books.

(The latter books in Le Guin's Earthsea series might be of interest in the slice-of-life department as well.)

I think Martha Wells combines fantasy and romance well--City of Bones is my favorite, although romance purists wouldn't like it; Wheel of the Infinite is a book well worth reading for its place in the fantasy genre alone, that also has an interesting romance; and romance features prominently in all five of her Ile Rien books.

Peter Beagle's A Fine and Private Place is a classic.

Roger Zelazny's Lord Demon is light and fun.

Steven Brust's Yendi...

[emberling]

Steven Brust's Yendi...

Really? I love this series, but I really never felt this romance. Which kind of makes sense considering *SPOILER*, but even so, it never felt...visceral.

Good call on Wells.

[Galactus]

The only real "romance" book (that is, if you don't count manga) I've read is... A superhero romance novel called Hot Mama (The author mailed it to me for free, I don't turn down free books!) It was kind of fun in a Silver-agey kind of way.

[Samalander]

Here are some good books in the SF/F genre, yet unmentioned, which contain strong romantic elements:

1) The Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey Niffeneger

2) Moira J Moore's Hero series

3) The Grand Ellipse by Paula Volsky

[David Selig]

Mckillip's Winter Rose is an excellent fantasy with a strong romantic element, beautifully written.

The already mentioned Bujold novels are a good choice too.

[Liadin]

Interesting how many recs Bujold is getting. I've only read one of her books (The Curse of Chalion), where the romance wasn't very prominent and I wasn't that impressed. Guess I should try The Sharing Knife.

[Eponine]

Personally, I applaud him. A lot of men (including on this forum) discredit romance itself as a subject worthy of a genre; many totally disdain romance novels without ever having read one before. I think it's very open-minded that Jaerv actually noticed that a shit-ton of women read these things and maybe there is something to that; why not see what all the fuss is about? And as a method of getting some tail, I think it's an excellent one. Why shouldn't a guy be interested in exploring something that women voraciously consume? Why shouldn't he want to see what interests the other half? Dudes on this board are always bemoaning the fact that they can't get girlfriends - how could it never have occurred to them do a little research by reading a few romance novels?

I don't know how I feel about this. Maybe there is something to the fact that a shit-ton of women read romance novels. But all I can think is that if I were out with a guy and he mentioned that he'd been reading romance novels in order to see what interests women, I'd be completely turned off. Not because romance novels are inherently shit literature but because of grouping them into "stuff women like". Now I understand he just wants to get out there and meet people and have something to talk about. But it makes a lot more sense to me to explore something that you want to have in common with the other person. I'd hate to feel like I was being researched based on being a woman, especially since I don't care for fantasy novels myself.

[Liadin]

I don't know how I feel about this. Maybe there is something to the fact that a shit-ton of women read romance novels. But all I can think is that if I were out with a guy and he mentioned that he'd been reading romance novels in order to see what interests women, I'd be completely turned off. Not because romance novels are inherently shit literature but because of grouping them into "stuff women like". Now I understand he just wants to get out there and meet people and have something to talk about. But it makes a lot more sense to me to explore something that you want to have in common with the other person. I'd hate to feel like I was being researched based on being a woman, especially since I don't care for fantasy novels myself.

Well sure, I too would be turned off if he actually thought reading romance novels would teach him what every woman ever wants to read about/find in a relationship. He'd have to broach the subject without making sweeping generalizations about my entire gender. But stereotyped remarks turn me off whether or not they have anything to do with romance novels, and in general I'd consider it a plus for a guy to have read some. It would tend to show that he's open-minded and secure enough in his masculinity to be able to explore.

Coincidentally, just a couple days ago I was joking around with a guy about time-traveling Highland sheiks. His ability to have that conversation was hot.

[LugaJetboyGirl]

I don't know how I feel about this. Maybe there is something to the fact that a shit-ton of women read romance novels. But all I can think is that if I were out with a guy and he mentioned that he'd been reading romance novels in order to see what interests women, I'd be completely turned off. Not because romance novels are inherently shit literature but because of grouping them into "stuff women like". Now I understand he just wants to get out there and meet people and have something to talk about. But it makes a lot more sense to me to explore something that you want to have in common with the other person. I'd hate to feel like I was being researched based on being a woman, especially since I don't care for fantasy novels myself.

Ha! Okay, so he shouldn't tell potential or actual dates that he nefariously read romance novels in order to research women. But I don't think I'd be weirded out if it was phrased in way that said he was just curious about the female perspective. Or, as a genre fan, curious about the genre and what makes it so popular.

[MattD]

Interesting how many recs Bujold is getting. I've only read one of her books (The Curse of Chalion), where the romance wasn't very prominent and I wasn't that impressed. Guess I should try The Sharing Knife.

The romantic element is much more prominent in the Sharing Knife books, yes; although if you weren't impressed by Curse of Chalion as a piece of fiction, I don't know if you will be by The Sharing Knife either. They fit the bill of what was asked for--fantasy with a larger than average and better than average romantic component--but let's face it, "average" in this regard is really pretty poor. What Bujold's more recent books do well is present credible, if somewhat idealized, portrayals of the thoughts of both women and men as they come to know each other--lust and affection, but also the slow and difficult process of learning to see someone as an individual, of having their own pride and needs and sense of self become important to you. They are, in the sense the OP asked for, almost primers in this regard (although her best books in this vein are her Vorkosigan science fiction books, not her fantasies). What Bujold does less well is having the obstacles to romance be almost exclusively external, while internally--in the minds and hearts of the characters--romance has a purity and inevitability; and also her habit of using romance almost as a reward for secondary characters. By the end of a Bujold series every good character will have been paired off, like in a Shakespearean comedy. Except these books aren't (for the most part) comedies.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

They put men in charge of the romance section? Men who didn't read romance? Is this how bookstore work assignments are usually made?

Yep. The supervisors were lazy as hell. As it happens, the store closed down about a year ago, lol.