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[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Davos 2 - Spoilers for ADwD


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#21 Ran

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 05:26 PM

That's the general gist of where many of us are going with this, yes. ;) Manderly fakes Davos's execution (how? probably using the fact that tarred hands and head are hard to identify ... maybe some random prisoner from the Wolf's Den is the lucky fellow who gets to take Davos's place?) to play the Iron Throne and bide his time until he can act. He sounds like he could end up following Stannis, if this proves to be right.

What will Stannis do with a fleet, though, one wonders? Obviously, he's a skilled naval commander, as such things go, but I'm not sure there'll be a lot of scope for it just now.

#22 jurble

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 05:41 PM

Well, with Waters' fleet gone, and Redwyne's fleet on the other side of the continent fighting the Ironborn, Stannis could sail Manderly's fleet into Kings' Landing under subterfuge (if he's willing to use subterfuge).

Edited by Jurble, 14 November 2010 - 05:42 PM.


#23 Werthead

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 06:26 PM

All the worldbuilding information on White Harbour is very interesting and welcome.

But, I am concerned that the stuff over Baby Aegon, rumours from the east, the Northmen having difficulty choosing sides and especially Davos examining the reasons for his loyalty to Stannis is all ground that has been covered before, quite a bit. I'm hoping ADWD moves more decisively towards the conclusion of the series at a stronger pace and some other chapters (the prologue and Reek's, in particular) show GRRM covering important events and setting up major plot movements with skillful economy, but this one feels a little more flabby.

That said, I could see this being the last we see of Davos and we assume he's dead, then Wyman's fleet turns up later in the book to kick some arse with Davos at its head, and this chapter could just set that up by itself, so maybe that's not a problem. We'll see.

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 06:32 PM

Anyone think the Manderly fleet is yet another possible ferryboat for Dany's armies in Meereen? Clearly talk about surviving Targaryens and dragons and slave revolts has reached White Harbor by this point. Against it, Wyman sounds too fearful of the Boltons to risk sending any of his strength so very far away.

#25 Ran

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 06:59 PM

Early chapters in the books always cover some of the ground of previous books. It's how GRRM recaps rather than writing those 'What has come before' chapters some other authors do. It looks like this Davos chapter is giving us a recap of the situation in the North (specifically as it relates to the connection to events in the south), and some reminders of how events in the east may relate to the Seven Kingdoms.

There's at least one more Davos chapter after this one. It does not involve Davos leading a fleet. That's all I'll say about that.

Edited by Ran, 14 November 2010 - 07:04 PM.


#26 Jughead of the Round

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 07:21 PM

There's at least one more Davos chapter after this one. It does not involve Davos leading a fleet. That's all I'll say about that.


No hint? I mean, we're already talking spoilers.

#27 Lord Varys

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 07:24 PM

Dammit, I really would love to read the conversation between Davos and Lord Wyman right now.

The Aegon thing is interesting, and likely really a setup for the Young Griff situation. I don't know what to make of it. Both a fake or a real Aegon VI could only become Daenerys Prince Consort right now. He has no army we are aware of. And apparently even Doran Martell does not know anything about his existence (else he likely would have sent Arianne to him, not Quentyn to Daenerys), which makes it extremely unlikely that there is plotting in Dorne in his favor. Sure, a male Targaryen and Rhaegar's eldest son would technically come before Daenerys, but she has the dragons now, and she is the Unburnt and the Mother of Dragons. Young Griff is just a boy with no accomplishments. It would be pretty much impossible for him to get her out of the way. And a new civil strife between Targaryens would ruin everything for them, once and for all.
But I'm pretty sure that no one would be able to win much or anything with a fake Aegon VI. Him being a fake could be revealed, and that is not the way Varys works, if I'm not mistaken.

I really fear for Stannis, though. Davos actually might abandon him. The whole talk about him wanting to see his wife and younger children again, the fact that he always wanted to travel east, and the fact that he apparently remembers Daenerys' name, and even mentioned it in the inn, could be very strong signs in a certain direction. Especially as we know that there are these damned chapters set in the Rainwood in ADwD. Is Davos going to take (parts of) Lord Wyman's fleet and going east for Slaver's Bay? Somehow this sounds and feels pretty convincing right now, but it would also be heartbreakingly sad. Stannis needs Davos. But GRRM really could pull such a thing off, right under our noses, making Stannis most stalwart servant switching camps. And Davos would be huge asset at Daenerys' court. If that is what is going to happen, Davos might really become one of the most interesting characters of the entire series.

He most certainly is not going to die the way Cersei believed he died. I not even believed that Lord Manderly ever presented the real Davos for the Onion Knight. It would be rather irritating if Davos would spend that much time at White Harbor, as speed most likely is everything right now, especially if Lord Wyman does not really intend to submit to the Lannisters. But even if that is not the case, it is evident that Lord Wyman is up to something, and the real deal here might be the Targaryens' return. White Harbor is a harbor city, and just because no one in KL or only a few people Oldtown did listen to the story about the dragons, does not mean that the people in Gulltown (remember Littlefinger indicating most interesting news when he returns from there) or White Harbor were equally deaf. Especially Lord Wyman, as he apparently did hire huge amounts of men and was building a fleet 'rivaling the size of the Royal Fleet'. To man such a fleet, he needs experienced sailors, and sailors talk.

Actively backing Roose Bolton seems to be totally out of question (and character) for the Manderlys in my mind (and if they intended to do that, they would already openly have declared for them). They might end up submitting to the Boltons if they had no other choice, but right now there are still a lot of options. Especially as Lord Tywin is dead. As soon as the news about Cersei's colorful way of ruling arrive in the North, most of the Lords who more or less reluctantly joined with Roose and the Freys because they feared the ultimate repercussions of Lord Tywin, most likely are going to change their minds. Especially if this coincides with victories of Stannis and/or the Ironborn. If the Boltons are unable to pacify the North, no one is going to accept them as Wardens.

Edited by Lord Varys, 15 November 2010 - 12:33 PM.


#28 jurble

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 08:02 PM

I don't see Davos suddenly breaking with Stannis, he's way too loyal. And with Aurane Waters and the Iron Fleet (the fleet the Qartheen give her in the spoiler chapter), Dany has all the ships she needs.

#29 Tsavong Lah

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 12:12 AM

All the worldbuilding information on White Harbour is very interesting and welcome.

But, I am concerned that the stuff over Baby Aegon, rumours from the east, the Northmen having difficulty choosing sides and especially Davos examining the reasons for his loyalty to Stannis is all ground that has been covered before, quite a bit. I'm hoping ADWD moves more decisively towards the conclusion of the series at a stronger pace and some other chapters (the prologue and Reek's, in particular) show GRRM covering important events and setting up major plot movements with skillful economy, but this one feels a little more flabby.

That said, I could see this being the last we see of Davos and we assume he's dead, then Wyman's fleet turns up later in the book to kick some arse with Davos at its head, and this chapter could just set that up by itself, so maybe that's not a problem. We'll see.


George did comment at the end of the reading that not a lot happened in the chapter, so it is something he realized. I don't know if that means he is looking to change it up or not. I didn't feel it would be in good taste to ask that at dinner or over the course of the evening.

Otherwise The Mastiff did an impressive job of writing up the reading. In fact, there are things in the write up that I don't remember from listening, so I definitely don't have anything to add to this. I blame a long night drinking the evening before for my lack of attentiveness and memory.

#30 jurble

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 02:28 AM

Then they go on to talk about how Baelor never married, but the whore that spoke to Davos says that he married one of his sisters, he just never bedded her and had all his sisters locked in a tower in the Red Keep to avoid the temptation.


This looks like it might be a subtle reminder for not-as-obsessive readers as where House Blackfyre comes from, so they aren't going "Who? What?" when the Golden Company shows up.

#31 Arataniello

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 08:23 AM

Pretend nephew.

I wonder which mad Targaryen king tried to marry his pet monkey to a noble?


The summary of the Davos chapter doesn't actually say it was a mad king that dressed an ape up as his son. It could easily have been a way for that Targaryen to demean his nobles by suggesting their daughters were not worth marrying his real sons.

Edited by Aratan, 15 November 2010 - 12:10 PM.


#32 Lord Varys

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 09:23 AM

On the Targaryen King:

Well, that most likely must have been one of meaner guys, most likely one of the older Kings. For some reason I could see Aenys I doing such a thing, as in his time the Targaryens were not yet fully established as an incest dynasty. But I'm not sure that Jaehaerys was already old enough to be married when Aenys died.

Maegor did not have a son, Jaehaerys seems to be above such arrogant nonsense, Viserys I had Rhaenyra, and I'm not sure that he was the type for such a thing, nor is it likely that he would make such a fuss about a son for whom he did not intend to succeed him. Aegon II, perhaps? Unlikely, as I'm pretty sure that this would have been a wise decision during war (I would be really surprised if his children were not used as bargaining chips to buy the loyalties of his followers). Aegon III also does not seem the type for this, especially as he died when all his children were not of age. Daeron I and Baelor also would not do such a thing for obvious reason, as would Viserys II. So the usual suspect would be Aegon IV - that is, if his son would have not been already married during Baelor's reign. This whole thing would only be funny if the existing Prince of Dragonstone was presently unwed. Daeron II is also an unlikely candidate, as is Aerys I for obvious reasons (no issue). Maekar might be possible, if he developed some sense of humor in his later years, especially as he had four sons, and three of them were married and had children of their own, but I still don't see him doing that.
Aegon V would be, well, interesting, actually. Egg developing some eccentricities in his later years would be fun, and this whole thing could actually be some kind of gag aimed both at the practice of the nobles to broker a Targaryen match and at their own habit of incestuous marriages. Egg himself most likely married his own sister, and if he did not change his mind on that topic later in life, Jaehaerys II most likely also was married to one of his sisters. At least I don't see Aerys marrying Rhaella if the Targaryens had change of mind on the incest tradition under Aegon V. Thus this is not likely. Jaehaerys II also is not likely the instigator of this joke, as Aerys was already married when he ascended the Iron Throne.
Aerys II of course would be the main suspect for such a thing. Rhaegar was unmarried, and it was difficult to find a suitable bride for him, and there can't be a doubt that many nobles (including Tywin) tried to take advantage of that situation. Sending Steffon to the Free Cities to finally find someone can also be seen as a sign that Aerys finally wanted to see this thing settled.
But we should think that Axell Florent and Davos should know that said King was Aerys, and I'm also pretty sure that Axell would not have been that eager to refer to a joke pulled off by Aerys Targaryen, as Aerys was no friend of Stannis (on the other hand, Axell Florent is not really a smart guy).

To conclude this thing:

I've no idea who this King might be. I really could think it might be Aenys I, but mostly because I really want him to have done something worth mentioning ;-). Any other ideas?

#33 Septic Septon

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 10:11 AM

Aegon V would be, well, interesting, actually. Egg developing some eccentricities in his later years would be fun, and this whole thing could actually be some kind of gag aimed both at the practice of the nobles to broker a Targaryen match and at their own habit of incestuous marriages. Egg himself most likely married his own sister, and if he did not change his mind on that topic later in life, Jaehaerys II most likely also was married to one of his sisters.


Also it would be a (rather crass) insult to his son Duncan the small, especially if he was really diminutive and not just named thus in contrast to Duncan the Tall. Martin said the relation between Egg and Duncan Jr were often strained.

#34 Former Lord of Winterfell

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 10:34 AM

What will Stannis do with a fleet, though, one wonders? Obviously, he's a skilled naval commander, as such things go, but I'm not sure there'll be a lot of scope for it just now.


That's what I was thinking as well, and the related question is why White Harbor went ahead with bulding the fleet anyway. To me, it suggests the Manderly strategy is to maintain independence from both KL and the Boltons. Otherwise, why would the Manderlys spend all that money just to put their fleet under the Lannister or Bolton flag, both of whom they dislike? And that, in turn, suggests that they may be reluctant to commit to Stannis as well, since that would force either KL or the Dreadfort to act against them. So my guess is that the Manderlys decide to sit on the sidelines for awhile, at least with respect to the struggle within Westeros itself.

#35 Ran

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 10:43 AM

It seems to me that if this story is true (and it's not clear that it is; it could be a confabulation on Axell's part as part of a dig at Davos, which was certainly the intent behind telling the story), that Aerys I seems like the likeliest of the Targaryen kings to carry on like this. Having no sons is, rather than a con, actually a pro -- it'd give him reason to "make up" a son by treating his pet monkey this way. And I expect he was rather mad, in his way.

Alternatively, it wasn't actually a king, but a Targaryen prince I suppose... Then Rhaegal sounds as likely.

BTW, for anyone else who heard the report, did the Targaryen king's name get mentioned, and can anyone else confirm it's the Snow Sept rather than the Snowy Sept?

Edited by Ran, 15 November 2010 - 10:45 AM.


#36 The Pale Griffin

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 10:54 AM

Just throwing this out there, but is all the Young Griff stuff the set up for the Mummer`s Dragon that was prophesied? this being a mummer`s dragon and not a true dragon meaning all his back story is made up by those who want to give him legitimacy.

#37 Lord Varys

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 11:09 AM

Ran,

well, right now our picture of Aerys I is that of an eccentric bookish scholar uninterested in the tedious business of ruling (except to decide whether captured Blackfyres should be executed) who was either asexual, gay, or sterile. He was not, however, rumored to be mad. Refusing to sleep with one's wife and preferring a scholar's life over a King's is not really mad, not necessarily eccentric, it's just consequential life-style. And this trained monkey stuff thing does not seem like the type of stuff a man uninterested in the day-to-day life of a King would do. It is way to elaborate, and really seems to be something only a man would do who interacted with his subjects on a regular basis.

Aerys I did neither. He tended to forget his crown somewhere between his scrolls, and also did not care if his wardrobe was no longer in a decent shape. I heavily doubt that he would present a trained ape to his court, calling him 'Aegon' or something like that, and making fun about the fact that his queen prayed for a son every night when they already had their Prince of Dragonstone right there. He really seems to be more the type of an absentminded professor turned King than a slightly mad, yet calculating guy. Of Daeron's four sons, only Rhaegel is supposed to be mad, and even he outshines Maekar somewhat. If Aerys had been less genial, and madder, Maekar really should have been able to find his spot in the sun.
I totally see him only calling on Bloodraven for completely insignificant things, like, to order him to make him new glasses, or ask him where the heck he has left his crown this time (likely, while actually wearing it for one time).

Prince Rhaegel would be a better candidate, but he never ascended the Iron Throne.

And I really somewhat think that this behavior really would be more fitting during the early phase of the Targaryen rule, as the Westerosi nobility likely really needed to 'learn' that the Targaryens were so much above them that there would be next to never a marriage between a Crown Prince and a subject's daughter.

Edit: Mummer's Dragon could be someone playing to be a Targaryen. But it also could be someone being a Targaryen while 'playing' (consciously or not) to be someone else. Say, Jon Snow could be 'playing' to be Ned Stark's son, while he actually is Rhaegar Targaryen's. Young Griff could be Aegon VI while believing (i.e. playing) to be Jon Connington's son. It is most likely that Young Griff, although he most likely was prepared for his future properly, was not told from a very early age that he was Aegon VI, King of Westeros. Doing that likely would have made it much more likely that this secret would be revealed. Jon also was told nothing of his heritage.

Either way, I'm not convinced that Mummer's Dragon has to be sign a that an Aegon VI appearing would have to be a fake. And it really could still refer to Jon Snow as well, although he most likely is not going to Meereen.

Edited by Lord Varys, 15 November 2010 - 11:19 AM.


#38 Elysia

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 11:18 AM

About Targ kings:
I understand that some King refused to marry M' to prince who become king after that, but is that all? I could not read long post on English right now, so...
I would really want Davos dead. Or off. He is such boring character.

Edited by Morning Winter Daisy, 15 November 2010 - 11:20 AM.


#39 Elysia

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 11:18 AM

Double post. /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Edited by Morning Winter Daisy, 15 November 2010 - 11:20 AM.


#40 Benjen

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 12:23 PM

I'll have to agree with Lord Varys asertion that Manderly wouldn't throw his lot in with Bolton. The Manderlys & Botlons have been in active conflict since CoK. Conflict surrounding the Hornwood lands being the named reason for the fighting, but I think the dislike between Bolton & Manderly is a deep one. I think the reading report has a mention of that trouble still going on. Roose was invloved in the Red Wedding too, his alliance with the Freys makes his involvement in that event and the death of Wendel hard to deny. I don't think Manderly is eager to join the Bolton/Frey cause at all.

I think Wyman just wants his son Wylis back, if you want to keep the timing of the chapter in context.

I'm hoping that the head and hands on the White Harbor walls we heard about in AFFC are just a good smuggler's trick that Davos teaches Lord Wyman.

I think the mention of the Bolton/Umber/Cerwyn/Ryswell/etc force moving toward Moat Cailin is important. Alot coming together there.

Roose Bolton leads the Northern Foot & the Freys up from the South, Ramsay et al (& Reek of course) coming down from the North... Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover in the Neck at Greywater Watch (or closer)...Robett Glover in White Harbor looking for Men to lead north to Deepwood Motte (yes we know a bit of what happens there later). And perhaps Osha and Rickon are there abouts as well. Hmmm.

I need more...

Edited by Benjen, 15 November 2010 - 12:25 PM.