Towers of Midnight Spoilers Thread #2

[Lightning Lord]

Raidne

It basically works as a "Summon" spell for fion. :)

But really...she was trying to keep him safe? By binding him in a hallway with a OP battle raging? WTF? We'll ignore that she's trying to "keep safe" the guy who just "canceled out balefire" that she said was "impossible." :shocked:

I'll admit, of course, that fionwe knows his shit a lot of the time. But this is...let's go with "silly."

[Guest Raidne]

Yes, but for Egwene to accept evidence that someone else might know what they're doing would be totally against character.

And that's perfectly consistent on an author's part and not bad writing, IMO - Rand described her as being that way back in EotW. And it's the same type of personality that a lot of strong leaders no doubt have. It has never crossed Egwene's mind that anyone might have a better idea of what's better for anyone or anything than Egwene. Even when she was with Moiraine, who she respected, she still defied her. And that trait has been tempered as well as it can be by her time with the Wise Ones. Whom she also defied, but confessed, and asked to meet her toh. She still takes what she wants, but she does realize when she should pay for it, even if it was the best thing to do and her interests were not selfish.

Certainly you can't be a good leader if you're not sure of yourself (see, e.g. Perrin - this is probably his most damaging character trait as a leader).

I mean, Mat never listens to anyone besides Mat either, but it doesn't bother us as readers like it does with Egwene because, you know, he's funny. Even though more people have died because of Mat's mistakes, probably, than have died due to anything Egwene did (although none are responsible for the thousands of needless deaths that Elayne can claim) - and Egwene has saved hundreds if not thousands of lives by avoiding a civil war amongst the Aes Sedai and defending the tower from the Seanchan.

[Lightning Lord]

Her thinking she's always right is 100% in character. But this was a attempting to tie up one of her oldest friends in the middle of a battle. Her character isn't supposed to be mean or stupid, but this is both of those things. What purpose could it possibly serve, other than to put him in danger? Was she going to hide him under a bed? She was in a corridor with a BA corpse, Perrin hadn't done anything to her.

If she wanted him gone, it's much easier/faster to say "Hey, you should leave." It's not like Perrin was being stubborn or ignoring her.

Bah.

[fionwe1987]

Yes, but for Egwene to accept evidence that someone else might know what they're doing would be totally against character.

The words were those of a madman, but they were spoken evenly. She looked at him, and remembered the youth that he had been. The earnest young man. Not solemn like Perrin, but not wild like Mat. Solid, straightforward.

The type of man you could trust with anything. Even the fate of the world.

"The man I saw wouldn't need to destroy such a place," Egwene said.

"Those inside would just follow him. Bend to his wishes. Because he was"

Yeah... this is totally a woman who will never accept that someone else will know what they're doing.

And that's perfectly consistent on an author's part and not bad writing, IMO - Rand described her as being that way back in EotW. And it's the same type of personality that a lot of strong leaders no doubt have. It has never crossed Egwene's mind that anyone might have a better idea of what's better for anyone or anything than Egwene. Even when she was with Moiraine, who she respected, she still defied her. And that trait has been tempered as well as it can be by her time with the Wise Ones. Whom she also defied, but confessed, and asked to meet her toh. She still takes what she wants, but she does realize when she should pay for it, even if it was the best thing to do and her interests were not selfish.

There's a difference. She does indeed defy each and every one of these people, and you're right that as she has grown, she has learned to accept responsibility for that. The question is, is this a woman who will leave Perrin bound to die? Even before she matured she proved amply that she would put her life in line to save a friend. Are we saying she has lost that, despite almost no evidence to the contrary save a twisted interpretation of this instance?

Certainly you can't be a good leader if you're not sure of yourself (see, e.g. Perrin - this is probably his most damaging character trait as a leader).

Perrin and Egwene are and interesting study in contrasts. Egwene wants to be a leader. And she still does a good job of it. Perrin succeeds despite the lack of this desire. By the end, he even believes that maybe the best leaders are those who are reluctant to take the job...

I mean, Mat never listens to anyone besides Mat either, but it doesn't bother us as readers like it does with Egwene because, you know, he's funny. Even though more people have died because of Mat's mistakes, probably, than have died due to anything Egwene did (although none are responsible for the thousands of needless deaths that Elayne can claim) - and Egwene has saved hundreds if not thousands of lives by avoiding a civil war amongst the Aes Sedai and defending the tower from the Seanchan.

So true... I think Egwene can be intensely irritating to many people because she never fit the stereotype of reluctant hero. Of all the characters save Mat, she regrets leaving the Two Rivers the least. What was a terrifying escape for the boys was a chance for freedom for Egwene, and she took it. I think that influences the way people view her actions a lot...

Incidentally, I had started reading the thread before you posted. I was trying to catch up with days of posts I had missed. Its kind of funny that I ended up replying right around when Egwene was again a focus of the discussion.

Incidentally, since Lightning Lord is still being childish and smarting over the fact that he cannot really debate WoT with me since his knowledge of the books is woefully bad... will someone please point out to him that Perrin stopped Balefire after Egwene tried to bind him? She isn't dumb enough to think that ropes will stop someone who can ignore balefire. :rolleyes:

[HammerOfGod]

I am looking at what has been achieved in the last two books and I wonder how much longer it would have taken RJ to finish this series...I believe that what Sanderson has covered in the last two books would have taken Robert Jordan at least 4 books and more likely 5...2020 and RJ would still be writing this series...

The use of rapid fire POV changes...it makes for a great deal more excitement and movement...Robert was a slow plodder while Brandon skims over the water at a mile a minute...actually at this point in the series Brandon is the better choice...

[fionwe1987]

I am looking at what has been achieved in the last two books and I wonder how much longer it would have taken RJ to finish this series...I believe that what Sanderson has covered in the last two books would have taken Robert Jordan at least 4 books and more likely 5...2020 and RJ would still be writing this series...

The use of rapid fire POV changes...it makes for a great deal more excitement and movement...Robert was a slow plodder while Brandon skims over the water at a mile a minute...actually at this point in the series Brandon is the better choice...

Left on the wayside are character complexity, consistency and plausibility. Not to mention some really wonky timelines, absurd memory loss, and a scarifice of one of WoT's scarcest commodities: true fear that the Shadow is winning.

ETA: But, at least these books sell as well as RJ's:

http://www.nytimes.com/pages/books/bestseller/

[The Evil Hat]

Left on the wayside are character complexity, consistency and plausibility. Not to mention some really wonky timelines, absurd memory loss, and a scarifice of one of WoT's scarcest commodities: true fear that the Shadow is winning.

ETA: But, at least these books sell as well as RJ's:

http://www.nytimes.com/pages/books/bestseller/

That's not a new addition with BS; the Shadow hasn't felt dangerous (excluding Ishamael in TGS) for a half dozen books or more.

As for Egwene, I'll allow that her ultimate plan wasn't to just leave Perrin there. That would've been too much for even her. I do think, however, that whatever she did to protect him would be utterly insufficient in the same manner as her protection of the others who went into TAR with her was.

As to her leaping into Aginor v. Rand in EotW, I think it's important to note that she was a very different person then. While she may think that Rand's moderately trustworthy now, and that he's a good guy to save the world, she still thinks that he's misguided. So yeah, it's a step above 'he's incompetent' but we're not at real trust yet.

With regards to the balefire (and I'll admit that this might be totally wrong, as I don't have quotes and don't intend to start a reread tomorrow to find them) couldn't Perrin just wish the weave out of existence? I remember some Aes Sedai doing that with a weave of fire at some point in the book, which would seem like an easier course. Or just will it to miss him. Though I guess he'd have to see the weaves for either, which he can't.

And allow me to just say that having an argument in which two of the main players are sticking their fingers in their ears and ignoring one another - but still commenting on the other's supposed posts - is incredibly obnoxious, and I fail completely to comprehend the advantage of a function that leaves you out of a large part of the conversation. You could, certainly, just skim or skip any posts you found particularly onerous, couldn't you?

[fionwe1987]

That's not a new addition with BS; the Shadow hasn't felt dangerous (excluding Ishamael in TGS) for a half dozen books or more.

That's sort of my point. It is a scare commodity, but there was a chance... Imagine how you would have felt if Rand was at the peak of his madness and is planning to meet Tuon to enforce a peace, Tuon was ready to send an attack against the White Tower, Egwene was beaten by Elaida and thrown into the dungeon, Perrin was in great trouble with the Whitecloaks and a Foresaken was on his trail, Mat was having a tough time with the Gholam, Elayne had just found out that there was a massive invasion planned and to crown it all Aviendha sees the belak fututre of the Aiel... all at about the same time! All those things did happen at the same time chronologically, but due to the way the book was split, we lost the impact. At the very least, Aviendha's placement in this book is unforgivable. We needed to see that just before Rand met Tuon, to increase our fears, to convince us that the Dark Rand we were seeing would doom the world one way or another.

As for Egwene, I'll allow that her ultimate plan wasn't to just leave Perrin there. That would've been too much for even her. I do think, however, that whatever she did to protect him would be utterly insufficient in the same manner as her protection of the others who went into TAR with her was.

What protection did Egwene offer the others? They all went in for a fight and put themselves in danger. No one expected an easy time, and everyone of the people in the plan was prepared to die to capture Mesaana. We have no idea what Egwene planned with Perrin. Let's not judge her on what we don't even know.

As to her leaping into Aginor v. Rand in EotW, I think it's important to note that she was a very different person then. While she may think that Rand's moderately trustworthy now, and that he's a good guy to save the world, she still thinks that he's misguided. So yeah, it's a step above 'he's incompetent' but we're not at real trust yet.

This makes no sense. She can think Perrin is an absolute moron... wouldn't change the fact that she would try to save his life, not endanger him further! Egwene also attacked Lanfear to save Rand in tFoH, right in the middle of her "Rand is being stupid" phase. This is one aspect of her nature that hasn't changed at all. Even in this book, when Nynaeve asks her to stay safe and let the others handle Mesaana, she refuses. She wasn't even able to let Bode handle the relatively safe task of changing the cuendillar chains in CoT. That was barley two months ago...

With regards to the balefire (and I'll admit that this might be totally wrong, as I don't have quotes and don't intend to start a reread tomorrow to find them) couldn't Perrin just wish the weave out of existence? I remember some Aes Sedai doing that with a weave of fire at some point in the book, which would seem like an easier course. Or just will it to miss him. Though I guess he'd have to see the weaves for either, which he can't.

Egwene does both. She thinks that a weave of fire will not touch her, and it doesn't. Then, she refuses to accept the existence of a shield of Air, and it vanishes, allowing her spear to kill Katerine.

For Perrin, he could only respond to the visible effect of the weave: the stream of Balefire. If the Black sister had sent an invisible club of Air, instead, Perrin would have not been able to do anything at all, and would likely have died.

And allow me to just say that having an argument in which two of the main players are sticking their fingers in their ears and ignoring one another - but still commenting on the other's supposed posts - is incredibly obnoxious, and I fail completely to comprehend the advantage of a function that leaves you out of a large part of the conversation. You could, certainly, just skim or skip any posts you found particularly onerous, couldn't you?

Yup. Never understood the point of the ignore function.

[Old Nan]

So true... I think Egwene can be intensely irritating to many people because she never fit the stereotype of reluctant hero. Of all the characters save Mat, she regrets leaving the Two Rivers the least. What was a terrifying escape for the boys was a chance for freedom for Egwene, and she took it. I think that influences the way people view her actions a lot...

You could forget who you were if you forgot where you came from, and sometimes the innkeeper's daughter from Emond's Field seemed a stranger to her.

She has no moral center and will freely admit it.

[The Evil Hat]

That's sort of my point. It is a scare commodity, but there was a chance... Imagine how you would have felt if Rand was at the peak of his madness and is planning to meet Tuon to enforce a peace, Tuon was ready to send an attack against the White Tower, Egwene was beaten by Elaida and thrown into the dungeon, Perrin was in great trouble with the Whitecloaks and a Foresaken was on his trail, Mat was having a tough time with the Gholam, Elayne had just found out that there was a massive invasion planned and to crown it all Aviendha sees the belak fututre of the Aiel... all at about the same time! All those things did happen at the same time chronologically, but due to the way the book was split, we lost the impact. At the very least, Aviendha's placement in this book is unforgivable. We needed to see that just before Rand met Tuon, to increase our fears, to convince us that the Dark Rand we were seeing would doom the world one way or another.

You've got me there, that would have been AWESOME. But that's because the Seanchan are the enemy that's still fearsome. The problem with doing it purely chronologically here would be the difficulty of doing it in one book. Yes, I agree that it would have been better that way, but we both know that Sanderson would never dare cut a plotline, no matter how inconsequential, that Jordan decided should be in the book, so there's no way it could've been.

What protection did Egwene offer the others? They all went in for a fight and put themselves in danger. No one expected an easy time, and everyone of the people in the plan was prepared to die to capture Mesaana. We have no idea what Egwene planned with Perrin. Let's not judge her on what we don't even know.

I'm talking about the accepted that ended up dying. Yes, she was supposed to leave, but Egwene's the one that brought her in there and is ultimately responsible for her.

This makes no sense. She can think Perrin is an absolute moron... wouldn't change the fact that she would try to save his life, not endanger him further! Egwene also attacked Lanfear to save Rand in tFoH, right in the middle of her "Rand is being stupid" phase. This is one aspect of her nature that hasn't changed at all. Even in this book, when Nynaeve asks her to stay safe and let the others handle Mesaana, she refuses. She wasn't even able to let Bode handle the relatively safe task of changing the cuendillar chains in CoT. That was barley two months ago...

I should have separated the paragraphs. I meant that Egwene's a different person, then went onto respond to other stuff almost completely unrelated. Sorry for the confusion there, I do think that she would still try her best to save anyone she saw in real danger.

Egwene does both. She thinks that a weave of fire will not touch her, and it doesn't. Then, she refuses to accept the existence of a shield of Air, and it vanishes, allowing her spear to kill Katerine.

For Perrin, he could only respond to the visible effect of the weave: the stream of Balefire. If the Black sister had sent an invisible club of Air, instead, Perrin would have not been able to do anything at all, and would likely have died.

Ah, alright. Out of curiosity, couldn't you kill with incredible ease by simply imagining your enemy with, say, an obstruction in their windpipe or no head? Egwene or Perrin are far stronger than most of the black sisters, so that would seem like a very effective method. Heh.

[Guy Kilmore]

Egwene does both. She thinks that a weave of fire will not touch her, and it doesn't. Then, she refuses to accept the existence of a shield of Air, and it vanishes, allowing her spear to kill Katerine.

For Perrin, he could only respond to the visible effect of the weave: the stream of Balefire. If the Black sister had sent an invisible club of Air, instead, Perrin would have not been able to do anything at all, and would likely have died.

Or Slayer could hit either one with an arrow from far away. I think there are plenty of things that can kill them both in the World of Dreams. Egwene is just used to it being her and the Wise Ones who are the ace acts, Perrin demonstrates that he is just as adept. Egwene does have the One Power to back her up, but Perrin has the power of being Ta'avern.

[HammerOfGod]

Actually Perrin was the teacher...it seems that Egwane had forgotten that you just have to remember in the World Of Dreams that nothing is real unless you let it be real...that is how Perrin defeated balefire and Egwene defeated the Adam she didn't believe it could hold her in the dream and it did not...then she used her will which is very strong to drive Maseana insane...

[Lightning Lord]

Actually Perrin was the teacher...it seems that Egwane had forgotten that you just have to remember in the World Of Dreams that nothing is real unless you let it be real...that is how Perrin defeated balefire and Egwene defeated the Adam she didn't believe it could hold her in the dream and it did not...then she used her will which is very strong to drive Maseana insane...

What doesn't make sense is we've been told that changing what someone else has done in TAR is supposed to be really difficult. That was one of the reasons Moghedian was captured by Nynaeve, though not the only. Mesaana had boatloads of confidence in herself, had the upper hand and had created the means to contain Egwene. It is completely against the parameters of TAR that Egwene was able to escape in such a fashion.

And it really seems like it could have been done much more believably. Mesaana was never mentioned as a TAR master (though she was assuredly more skilled than Nynaeve, who isn't a Dreamer). So Mesaana shielding Egwene with the Power and then having Egwene remove the shield through TAR Will makes more sense and follows the internal logic more closely.

Harumph.

[Mack Kilimaro]

Hang on, do I see fionwe saying something bad about the Wheel of Time? Have I stepped into a bizarro universe here? Is it opposite week on the board and nobody told me? We'd better investigate this. There could be a body snatcher situation going on here.

I don't really get all the harsh comments on Egwene's behavior. I wouldn't rate latter-day Egwene as being among my favorite characters, but I think you should be able to understand why she acts the way that she does. Everything she has gotten, she has had to fight for, and in some ways she is as lonely at the top as Rand probably is. Lonelier since she's only really reconciled some kind of understanding with Gawyn in the course of TOM. For all that, though, she doesn't have as much out in the world experience as someone like Nynaeve. Generally since leaving The Two Rivers she's been in some kind of ordered system or another - whether that's the White Tower, at the wrong end of an a'dam, with the Aiel or with the Salidar Aes Sedai. It's all pretty ivory tower stuff, with, what, two exceptions? The Perrin-Egwene duo in EOTW and the Black AS hunt that takes everybody to Tear in TDR.

Not to mention if someone came to you and said, "Hey, let's break down all that's keeping the supreme evil from the world so we can seal him up better," you would be pretty skeptical no matter who that person was.

It seems like people are bashing Egwene for not trying to engage Rand in a debate, but to me, Rand didn't want to debate right there. I agree with those who have said that he was there to manipulate Egwene into gathering the rulers of the nations and their armies in one place so he could just address them all and do what needed to be done. Probably there will be some debate there over what he's going to do. I don't think there is anything Egwene could have done to make the situation better, and all of the things that would have really made it worse are not things she would do.

Sometimes it's hard to stop a good rant though, so that's fair.

[Lightning Lord]

You bring up some good points, Mack. I think the criticism isn't that she wouldn't discuss with Rand his idea, but that she tosses it aside instantly. It never occurs to her that she should discuss it with him, find out the reasoning, etc. Several people have pointed out already that Rand wasn't looking to engage in a debate, nor was he inclined to explain himself.

My particular criticisms stand, despite your post. No matter how lonely or rigid your life, tying up your friend isn't a nice thing to do, unless it's in the bedroom. :D

[David Selig]

Calm down, guys, no need to get angry at each other over a fictional character (especially not this fictional character).

It seems like people are bashing Egwene for not trying to engage Rand in a debate, but to me, Rand didn't want to debate right there.

I agree, but she still should've tried harder. Her first action should've been "Let's find Rand and try to discuss this Seal breaking deal in detail, and have all Brown Ajah research what we have available as an information on the Seals". Instead she immediately decided Rand is wrong and she needs to stop him, by force if necessary. As far as we know, she hasn't ever thought in her life on how to stop the Dark One this time around, yet she thinks she knows better than the Dragon Reborn, which is the height of arrogance.

[Guest Raidne]

"The man I saw wouldn't need to destroy such a place," Egwene said.

"Those inside would just follow him. Bend to his wishes. Because he was"

Yeah... this is totally a woman who will never accept that someone else will know what they're doing.

Well, let's just say that I think Rand is going to "face the Amyrlin seat and know her anger" in the next book, so I don't think your interpretation is going to hold up here.

I also don't think she left Perrin bound to die, intentionally. Not my interpretation of that scene at all.

Perrin succeeds despite the lack of this desire. By the end, he even believes that maybe the best leaders are those who are reluctant to take the job...

I thought this was a clear reference to Plato's Republic, where that idea is famously put forth. Of course, a Platonic ideal leader, however, still wouldn't whine about being chosen and blather on about how unfit he is once the individual was already chosen to be a leader. My two cents.

Certainly, as readers, the author is trying to persuade us that perhaps Perrin meets this Platonic ideal.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Raidne,

Out of curiosity, would you call yourself a Platonist?

[Bill Foote]

Per Solmyr in the last thread: I think stick a fork into the idea of any coherent explanation of balefire. BS' interviews about it all a mess (on Force of Light in tGS, he went on about the castle being destroyed back in time...) Granted RJ's weren't so hot either, but at least it was a little consistent.

Egwene also attacked Lanfear to save Rand in tFoH, right in the middle of her "Rand is being stupid" phase. This is one aspect of her nature that hasn't changed at all.

FoH US first edition hardcover has Rand PoV and she doesn't do anything visible. Unless she knew Lanfear were there in the first place, don't think you can call that too brave :)

[macaroni]

Raidne, the chapter was called 'the Amyrlin's anger'...pretty unequivocal, there.

Anyway, Is Egwene any different to the Women's circle in Emond's field? There is a degree of chauvinism in her thought processes, I would say, but they are hardly any different to any other powerful woman in this series.

My major criticism of Egwene is not that she disagrees, breaking the seals could destroy the world, after all! My major criticism is not that she is gaining allies to disagree with Rand, this will most likely play into his hands, after all!

No, my criticism of Egwene is that she does not offer an alternative plan. The seals are weakening, the dark one is getting free anyway...what idea to fix this does egwene have?