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Joffrey and Tommen


LadySansa

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So I've wondered about a comment Tommen makes in AFFC. On page 181 he is talking to Jaime about how to bear the smell of Tywin's corpse. I am going to retype it here for those of you who don't want to run and get their books. It starts from when Jaime is telling him a man can bear most anything.

"The world is full of horrors, Tommen. You can fight them, or laugh at them, or look without seeing . . . go away inside."

Tommen considered that. "I . . . I used to go away inside sometimes." he confessed, "when Joffy . . . "

"Joffery." Cersei stood over them, the wind whipping her skirts around her legs. "Your brother's name was Joffery. He would never have shamed me so."

Soooo, what was that about? Why did Cersei interrupt him? Was it to correct him or to prevent him from continuing to speak? What was Tommen going to say? Is GRRM telling us that Joffery used to terrible abuse/possibly molest Tommen? Did Cersei know? I don't think Cersei would let Joffrey rape Tommen, but she might let him beat Tommen.

What do you guys think about this scene?

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Nah, I don't think Joffrey molested him. He's such a despicable little shit, people tend to forget how young he was - only 13 years old when he died. That's when basic sexual urges and abilities begin to form in most cases; somehow, I don't see a 9 or 10 years old Joffrey molesting a toddler.

But I'm sure that he made Tommen's life miserable in many other, non-sexual, ways.

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I don't think Cersei interrupted Tommen to prevent him from telling something to Jaime, she was only being self-centered and irritated as usual. And I definitely don't think she would let Joffrey harass Tommen sexually or beat him up; if that happened she probably wouldn't know. But IIRC she wasn't particularly angry at her son for cutting that pregnant cat open and I believe it's mentioned that Tommen had a fawn or a doe that Joffrey killed, so Joff could have been casually hurting other animals in front of Tommen and Cersei would let it slide. And we can't forget Joffrey's treatment of others after Robert's death — he ordered Dontos to be drowned in wine in front of his siblings and if it wasn't for Sansa, Dontos would have been. That could be an example of a scene where Tommen "went away inside".

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I remember Egg mentioning how Aerion would hold a knife to his (ahem) parts and threaten to make him into a girl. I don't have tHK to hand to verify that, mind.

Given how similar Joffrey and Aerion are written, in some aspects, it's not beyond the realm of possibilty that Tommen was abused quite a bit. Poor little bugger.

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Honestly, I don't think it was sexual either. Not because I have a lot of respect for Joffrey; I just don't think that this one little kid should have every negative personality trait possible, from birth. That's way too much concentrated evil.

Just remember what genes hes getting from his parents.

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That's a good point. Didn't Cersei twist Tyrion's penis when he was only a baby? Still, he also inherits Jaime's slightly less depraved nature.

You mean, the nature that participates in an incestuous relationship with his menstruating sister next to the body of their dead son, and the nature that throws seven-year old children from tower windows?

Incidentally, I don't believe that he sexually abused Tommen. If he had, he would have gone further with Sansa. He beat the poor kid up and verbally abused him, I think.

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You mean, the nature that participates in an incestuous relationship with his menstruating sister next to the body of their dead son, and the nature that throws seven-year old children from tower windows?

I said "slightly". Cersei has more of a dedication to petty cruelty that Jaime lacks. They're both shockingly violent, but Cersei has more of a passion for it. Jaime will impulsive throw a child to his death; Cersei will orchestrate the rise of a totalitarian religious dictatorship, fabricate evidence to implicate her victim in shocking crimes, and conduct a kangaroo preliminary hearing to dragoon her victim into being executed. It's absolutely despicable but it takes way more effort, planning, and thought than anything either Joffrey or Jaime ever did. I don't like Cersei, and I don't respect what either she or her brother did, but when it comes to vindictive sadism I think Cersei takes the prize.

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Yes, Jaime's instinctively, brutally cruel. Cersei's more deliberate.

Also, Jaime seems to do what needs to be done: kill Ned's men, throw Bran. In his eyes, that was necessary. For Cersei, however, it's also fun.

I also thought Tommen was referring to Joffrey's various acts of cruelty, whether toward himself, Sansa, or others. Nothing as diabolical as rape or incest to my mind.

Besides, Tommen was wailing when Joffrey choked to death, which to me indicated that despite Joff's ugly nature, Tommen may have still cared for him (a little).

Or maybe Tommen was just scared watching a person die...

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I also thought Tommen was referring to Joffrey's various acts of cruelty, whether toward himself, Sansa, or others. Nothing as diabolical as rape or incest to my mind.

And not at all necessary. Tommen is a child, he has not the same standards of right and wrong, of cruelty as an adult. You don't need a brother like Joffrey to suffer terribly from things that are not worth mentioning by adults, and you can still cope with awful abuses.

Cersei doesn't like Tommen to whine or to behave childish (especially now when he is her only son). And she is not quite the empathic type, that's probably why she interrupts Tommen.

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Aerion was about Joffrey's age (12-13) when he visited Egg in his bedchamber and threatened him with this knife. I don't see Joffrey doing something like that, but I totally see Joffrey torturing Tommen when they were alone. After all, in his opinion Tommen would have been a weakling.

We can't compare this abuse in the family with the public abuse of Sansa, as Cersei most likely did somewhat instruct her son that Sansa Stark was a hostage and not to be harmed or disfigured in a permanent way. Apparently, Joffrey was even instructed by Cersei that Kings do not strike their wives, but got around that thing by ordering the KG to do it. Most likely he ordered them to keep quiet about this. About Joffrey's sexual tastes I'm not sure. I can imagine him being not that interested in vanilla sex, and he also does not strike me to be that eager to explore his sexuality. Had he been, he most likely would have asked his whore-addicted imp uncle to get him to a brothel, or has visited Sansa some night in her bedchamber.

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Ya, I don't think there's a whole lot worth reading into this. We know Joffrey was cruel towards Tommen, and we know Cersei hated being embarassed and loved Joffrey more than, well, anyone else. Tommen "went inside" when Joff was being cruel to him, Cersei cut him off because he was embarassing her/Joff by saying his name in a childlike manner.

All of that's in the text. It's unnecessary to read anything else into it just because it might fit.

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Had he been, he most likely would have asked his whore-addicted imp uncle to get him to a brothel, or has visited Sansa some night in her bedchamber.

Didn't Tyrion plan to have a few brothel visits for Joffy after the naked Sansa incident? To soften him through sex?

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Cercei was always blind to Joff's misconduct. I doubt she was stopping Tommen to contain some terrible secret. She was just cross and bitchy as usual.

I don't think Joffrey molested Tommen. I have not read anything that suggests that his sexual deviance (ie. "Boros, make her naked") spread to more than the opposite sex. I think Joffrey teased and probably injured his brother.

Yes, at one point Tyrion suggested that they smuggle Joffrey over to Chatya's. It's a good thing he didn't or the brothel would have more than one girl with scars. Poor Alayaya. D:

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