Why did Benjen join the Night's Watch?

[Yarl Snow]

I've been wondering about this for some time now. While reading a document about the timeline here at westeros.org, it seems Benjen join the NW shortly after Ned returned to Winterfell with Jon.

Possible reasons?

He had "no place" to be, after Ned took hold of Winterfell again. Well, if that is true, the same would have been true of Lyanna, Ned and Benjen, had they survived the war. Would they all have join the NW? No, they would be married to other lordlings to preserve and strengthen house Stark. Benjen being the last surviving sibling, with only one heir - Robb - being present, and that heir being an infant, it seems remarkably foolish to join the NW and possibly leave house Stark without an heir, if something were to happen to Ned and Robb.

He was "charmed" by the idea, from the Harrenhal recruiter, and other ideals probably prevalent in the north. Well, yeah, possibly. He was young, once a third son, he could have considered it. But now, with most of his siblings dead, would he go off and leave Ned alone just because he fancied it an honor? I am not sold.

More intriguingly, perhaps there was some darker reason. Some news that Ned brought back from the Tower of Joy. Something Lyanna told him, perhaps prophecy, about the coming war against the Nameless One. Ned, being instrumental in the downfall of house Targaryen and Rhaegar's prophecy, might have considered it his job to protect against this possible threat, and thus sending Benjen to the wall. Benjen being informed of this, of course, and taking precautions, looking for information, etc.

Still... is there any mention in the book about his reasons for joining the Watch?

I am reminded of his conversation with Jon, when he says Jon cannot possibly know what he is giving up, when he has not "known" a woman. So, Benjen had sowed his wild oats then? He had known women?

[mormont]

Yes, there is a mention of his reasons in the books - and you note it yourself. He was impressed by the Harrenhal recruiter.

Other than that, we have had some recent discussions about this (it's worth doing a search to read them). It's been pointed out, for example, that we know of many Stark sons who joined the Night's Watch (mostly because they rose to be Lord Commander), so Ben doing so doesn't seem to be particularly unusual. As such, I'm not sure it needs any further explanation. The chances of something happening to both Ned and Robb, before another heir was born at that, are not that high: certainly no higher than the chance that Jorah would die, for example, and that didn't stop the Old Bear. And, as I have noted before, against that you have to balance many factors: for example, the difficulty both Ned and Ben would face with Ned effectively 'taking over' from Ben, or Ben's natural desire to find his own path in life, rather than hanging about in case something happened to his brother and nephew. Not a life I would find particularly fulfilling...

Could there be more to it? Possibly. But we have no substantial reason to think so as things stand. Ben was just doing what many Starks do, and what we are told he had been thinking about even before the war.

[Axon]

We'll find out when it's revealed he is cold hands :P

[Yarl Snow]

Yes, there is a mention of his reasons in the books - and you note it yourself. He was impressed by the Harrenhal recruiter.

Other than that, we have had some recent discussions about this (it's worth doing a search to read them). It's been pointed out, for example, that we know of many Stark sons who joined the Night's Watch (mostly because they rose to be Lord Commander), so Ben doing so doesn't seem to be particularly unusual. As such, I'm not sure it needs any further explanation. The chances of something happening to both Ned and Robb, before another heir was born at that, are not that high: certainly no higher than the chance that Jorah would die, for example, and that didn't stop the Old Bear. And, as I have noted before, against that you have to balance many factors: for example, the difficulty both Ned and Ben would face with Ned effectively 'taking over' from Ben, or Ben's natural desire to find his own path in life, rather than hanging about in case something happened to his brother and nephew. Not a life I would find particularly fulfilling...

Could there be more to it? Possibly. But we have no substantial reason to think so as things stand. Ben was just doing what many Starks do, and what we are told he had been thinking about even before the war.

The Mormonts were more plentiful than that. As we've seen, Maege Mormont has a ton of sisters, and the Mormonts seem to not disregard daughters as much as other houses. The old bear, whose name escapes me at the moment, joined the NW to allow his son to become Lord. He was not Jorah's heir. In fact, to follow the Benjen reasoning, it would be Jorah joining the NW instead. Benjen *was* by a hair Ned's heir at the time. And not only that, besides Robb, there *was* no one else. Infants often die, as we are told. And there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

Being impressed with a recruiter in your youth is one thing. After surviving a bloody war, seeing half of your siblings and your father die, is quite another. Joining the NW at that time, he was reducing the number of Stark heirs by 50%, weakening his house considerably.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Yarl:

If Robb was born, Benjen wasn't the heir. And in any case, Ned "had" two sons at that point, Robb and Jon, and a young fertile wife who would most likely give him more sons.

And, as I have noted before, against that you have to balance many factors: for example, the difficulty both Ned and Ben would face with Ned effectively 'taking over' from Ben, or Ben's natural desire to find his own path in life, rather than hanging about in case something happened to his brother and nephew. Not a life I would find particularly fulfilling...

I agree. It's worth remembering Genna's comments about how Tywin's younger brothers struggled with being overshadowed by their influential brother. Somebody like Kevan could thrive because he was willing to be absolutely loyal to Tywin; somebody with a bit more ambition would struggle, knowing that in this context they would always be second best. In the Night's Watch, however, Benjen would face no such obstacle, and could rise as high as Lord Commander if he showed any skill.

[mormont]

The Mormonts were more plentiful than that. As we've seen, Maege Mormont has a ton of sisters, and the Mormonts seem to not disregard daughters as much as other houses.

And the Starks have cousins in the Vale, for that matter. And while the Mormonts have a different attitude to women warriors, we have no indication that they have a different attitude to women becoming Lord. It may follow, but it doesn't necessarily.

The old bear, whose name escapes me at the moment, joined the NW to allow his son to become Lord. He was not Jorah's heir. In fact, to follow the Benjen reasoning, it would be Jorah joining the NW instead.

Jeor. ;)

And no, it wouldn't be any different either way. The point is that either Jeor or Jorah joining leaves only the current Lord Mormont, while Ben joining leaves Ned plus an heir. If you'd like another example, Waymar Royce would do - what if something happened to his father and two brothers? Yet this was clearly considered so unlikely that Robar was left to make his own way in the world, too. You could name just about any noble Night's Watch recruit, I'm sure, and say 'but what if...?' It doesn't work as an argument, because clearly noble families in Westeros don't think that way. So long as there is an heir, that's that. Maybe it's a consequence of their system of inheritance, in which younger sons get nothing, but there it is.

Benjen *was* by a hair Ned's heir at the time.

That was Robb, surely?

And not only that, besides Robb, there *was* no one else. Infants often die, as we are told. And there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

And within a few years, there were three male heirs and two female heirs. Cat even considers that there might be more.

Being impressed with a recruiter in your youth is one thing. After surviving a bloody war, seeing half of your siblings and your father die, is quite another. Joining the NW at that time, he was reducing the number of Stark heirs by 50%, weakening his house considerably.

In the event, it didn't matter. As it was never all that likely to.

The problem here is that you're to some extent begging the question: you're playing up the significance of Ben's decision because you think it might be significant. It might be, but taken on its own, there's no particularly compelling argument to say that it is.

[Yarl Snow]

It is possible to argue every point in the mainstream arguments for Benjen joining the NW. But I am not asking for arguments for or against the facts that I have already stated and/or are granted by the circumstances, I am asking if there are other reasons or theories as to why Benjen Stark would have joined the Night's Watch.

These reasons would tie in with Jon, Coldhands, children of the forest, the war against the Others, and all that juicy stuff.

[A Redeemed Hound]

To get to the other side.

[Prince of the North]

It is possible to argue every point in the mainstream arguments for Benjen joining the NW. But I am not asking for arguments for or against the facts that I have already stated and/or are granted by the circumstances, I am asking if there are other reasons or theories as to why Benjen Stark would have joined the Night's Watch.

These reasons would tie in with Jon, Coldhands, children of the forest, the war against the Others, and all that juicy stuff.

Ask and ye shall receive! My theory is that Benjen figured out that R+L=J and wanted to support Jon for the Iron Throne (after all, if R+L=J, then that would be the "right" and "honorable" thing to do). I think Ned disagreed with doing that based on what he thought would be the best way to fulfill his promise(s) to Lyanna. This is where I think he and Ned had a falling out resulting in Benjen joining the NW. The exchange when Jon told Benjen that he's not his father (he thinks Ned is) and Benjen replied "More's the pity" could be very telling. I think Benjen is implying that things would be different if he had been the one making the decisions about Jon's future when he says that.

However, everyone saying that we just don't know based on the evidence is absolutely correct. This is my theory on why Benjen joined the NW until Martin chooses to reveal any more on the matter if there is, in fact, any more to reveal. Oh, and by the way, Benjen is Coldhands (created by the TEC), the TEC is Bloodraven, and they are working together against the Others ;)

[Spaceman Hobbes]

If Benjen was recruited at the Harrenhall tourney, he had probably taken his vows prior to Robert's Rebellion. After the war, it's not like he can come back and say, "Ned, I know I joined the Night's Watch, but I think the family needs me more right now. So I'm breaking my vows for the sake of House Stark." If he did, Ned would chop his head off. Or send him back to the Wall. Probably chop his head off.

[Prince of the North]

If Benjen was recruited at the Harrenhall tourney, he had probably taken his vows prior to Robert's Rebellion. After the war, it's not like he can come back and say, "Ned, I know I joined the Night's Watch, but I think the family needs me more right now. So I'm breaking my vows for the sake of House Stark." If he did, Ned would chop his head off. Or send him back to the Wall. Probably chop his head off.

Hmm...I could be wrong as it's been a long time since I read AGOT but I don't recall anything being said about it other than Benjen was impressed with the NW recruiter at Harrenhall. I'm not sure any vows would have been taken at that point.

[Yarl Snow]

Hmm...I could be wrong as it's been a long time since I read AGOT but I don't recall anything being said about it other than Benjen was impressed with the NW recruiter at Harrenhall. I'm not sure any vows would have been taken at that point.

I glanced at the chapter with Meera's story just now, and the only thing mentioned about the NW recruiter was that he stood up and asked for volunteers. Where does it say that Benjen was impressed? I do seem to recall that from somewhere, but I dont know if it was the books, or from a forum.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

If Benjen was recruited at the Harrenhall tourney, he had probably taken his vows prior to Robert's Rebellion.

That's unlikely. Benjen had been holding Winterfell on Ned's behalf during the war. It would be hard to square that with the NW vows.

[Yarl Snow]

Ask and ye shall receive! My theory is that Benjen figured out that R+L=J and wanted to support Jon for the Iron Throne (after all, if R+L=J, then that would be the "right" and "honorable" thing to do). I think Ned disagreed with doing that based on what he thought would be the best way to fulfill his promise(s) to Lyanna. This is where I think he and Ned had a falling out resulting in Benjen joining the NW. The exchange when Jon told Benjen that he's not his father (he thinks Ned is) and Benjen replied "More's the pity" could be very telling. I think Benjen is implying that things would be different if he had been the one making the decisions about Jon's future when he says that.

However, everyone saying that we just don't know based on the evidence is absolutely correct. This is my theory on why Benjen joined the NW until Martin chooses to reveal any more on the matter if there is, in fact, any more to reveal. Oh, and by the way, Benjen is Coldhands (created by the TEC), the TEC is Bloodraven, and they are working together against the Others ;)

Hmm, you mean that Ned and Ben - almost palindrome brothers ;) - would have a falling out over raising Jon as the heir to the throne? It's a risky proposition. They would be betraying Robert. It would set them against all those who were previously their allies. They could sway the north to change sides, perhaps, but it would be strange to oppose one Targ only to later favour another.

I suppose it could in theory work, if they considered that a bastard of Rhaegar would have more right to the throne than Robert. Ned would know Robert would never accept it... but perhaps Ben would not. And therefore they have a falling out.

"More's the pity".. yes, I also thought that was a passing odd thing to say in that situation. It almost seems as though Ben comes to Jon because he sees something in him, and that he feels that Jon is wasted where he is. At the same time, he seems reluctant to let Jon take the black.

I hope there's more to Ben than we've seen. I'm sure he's been up to something, something I think was implied in the cache left on the Fist. (See thread about Jon and the black cloak)

[mormont]

It is possible to argue every point in the mainstream arguments for Benjen joining the NW. But I am not asking for arguments for or against the facts that I have already stated and/or are granted by the circumstances, I am asking if there are other reasons or theories as to why Benjen Stark would have joined the Night's Watch.

These reasons would tie in with Jon, Coldhands, children of the forest, the war against the Others, and all that juicy stuff.

I've certainly heard plenty of theories, from the bizarre (Ben was in love with Cat) to the... even more bizarre (Ben was Jon's father through an incestuous affair with Lyanna). But there's no evidence for any of them in the books; they're pretty much all made up of whole cloth.

There is Ben's remark to Jon in AGOT, of course - when Jon says, 'You're not my father' and Ben replies 'More's the pity'. Or rather, there's the fact that he's noted as looking at Jon 'oddly' when he says it. That could indicate that Ben knows something about Jon's parentage. But for that to be the reason Ben joined the Night's Watch, we would need something more, an additional hint. Maybe some remark by Ben, or Ned, or Jeor or Aemon or Donal Noye that suggests that Ben's presence in the Watch is due to a hidden secret; or even that it's even considered odd by anyone. But I can't recall anything that fits.

As it is, remember that Ben is the one who initially suggests that Jon should join the Watch, though he later has some doubts over whether Jon is ready yet. That doesn't marry well with a theory that he disagreed with Ned over putting Jon on the throne. Neither does Ben and Ned's relationship suggest anything but complete trust and confidence on both sides. It's hard to imagine that they disagreed on something so profoundly that Ben joined the Watch over it, but that they now exhibit no signs of that at all.

[Prince of the North]

Hmm, you mean that Ned and Ben - almost palindrome brothers ;) - would have a falling out over raising Jon as the heir to the throne? It's a risky proposition. They would be betraying Robert. It would set them against all those who were previously their allies. They could sway the north to change sides, perhaps, but it would be strange to oppose one Targ only to later favour another.

Hmm...I'm not sure I would go so far as to say it would be "betraying" Robert. After all, if R+L=J, then Jon has a much better claim than Robert. However, you're right that it would set the North against their allies and plunge the Kingdoms right back into civil war. The thing is, to Benjen, who is also one of theose "honorable" Starks and not BFF with Robert, supporting the "legitimate" heir could be seen as the "right" thing to do. I put all these things in quotations because, of course, they all depend on one's perspective ;) Another thing I think we get, espeically from Ned's POV, is that the sins of the father should not be held against the children so I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that Benjen may not have held Aerys's sins against Jon (if R+L=J).

I suppose it could in theory work, if they considered that a bastard of Rhaegar would have more right to the throne than Robert. Ned would know Robert would never accept it... but perhaps Ben would not. And therefore they have a falling out.

Yes. If R+L does, in fact, equal J then Jon would have the better claim. Whether R+L married throws a wrinkle into things, of course, but it ultimately doesn't really matter. That is, if Jon was a bastard son of R+L people may use that as a reason not to support him but, then again, that may not matter to others. Or R+L may have married but some may not want to recognize a polygamous marriage but, then again, others may not care about that at all because he's Rhaegar's son, etc. Remember Varys's riddle - power resides where people think it resides.

"More's the pity".. yes, I also thought that was a passing odd thing to say in that situation. It almost seems as though Ben comes to Jon because he sees something in him, and that he feels that Jon is wasted where he is. At the same time, he seems reluctant to let Jon take the black.

Yeah, I personally don't think it's just a throw away line but I'm probably reading too much into it, right? :P

I hope there's more to Ben than we've seen. I'm sure he's been up to something, something I think was implied in the cache left on the Fist. (See thread about Jon and the black cloak)

I think my theories concerning Benjen, Coldhands, and the TEC are close to being right but who doesn't think their theories are right? :D

[Prince of the North]

I've certainly heard plenty of theories, from the bizarre (Ben was in love with Cat) to the... even more bizarre (Ben was Jon's father through an incestuous affair with Lyanna). But there's no evidence for any of them in the books; they're pretty much all made up of whole cloth.

There is Ben's remark to Jon in AGOT, of course - when Jon says, 'You're not my father' and Ben replies 'More's the pity'. Or rather, there's the fact that he's noted as looking at Jon 'oddly' when he says it. That could indicate that Ben knows something about Jon's parentage. But for that to be the reason Ben joined the Night's Watch, we would need something more, an additional hint. Maybe some remark by Ben, or Ned, or Jeor or Aemon or Donal Noye that suggests that Ben's presence in the Watch is due to a hidden secret; or even that it's even considered odd by anyone. But I can't recall anything that fits.

As it is, remember that Ben is the one who initially suggests that Jon should join the Watch, though he later has some doubts over whether Jon is ready yet. That doesn't marry well with a theory that he disagreed with Ned over putting Jon on the throne. Neither does Ben and Ned's relationship suggest anything but complete trust and confidence on both sides. It's hard to imagine that they disagreed on something so profoundly that Ben joined the Watch over it, but that they now exhibit no signs of that at all.

Hey, quit blowing holes in my extremely thin theories! :P You're right, of course, and these are all very good points.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

The exchange when Jon told Benjen that he's not his father (he thinks Ned is) and Benjen replied "More's the pity" could be very telling. I think Benjen is implying that things would be different if he had been the one making the decisions about Jon's future when he says that.

That's possible. However, I suspect, given the other things that Benjen says in that conversation, that he was feeling some ambivalence about what he had to give up in order to join the Night's Watch.

[A Redeemed Hound]

I figure he just joined because he had no shot at being Lord of Winterfell. And in the north it is considered a noble and honerable thing to join the NW. I would hope that not EVERY thing that happens in the books is some big conspiracy. Sometimes a dog is just a dog. :read:

[Yarl Snow]

I figure he just joined because he had no shot at being Lord of Winterfell. And in the north it is considered a noble and honerable thing to join the NW. I would hope that not EVERY thing that happens in the books is some big conspiracy. Sometimes a dog is just a dog. :read:

I guess on some level, I want Benjen to be more than a dog. =P He is the last of Lord Rickard's children, an adult Stark, a brother of the Night's Watch, and for some reason GRRM has not told us much about him at all. He is in a position to know a great many things that died with Ned, such as who Jon's mother is. It would be disappointing if his story remained as untold as it is.