casual instances of controversal character flaws

[Eponine]

This came up when I was helping a friend with comments on an unpublished novel.

A secondary character in his book is a criminal, but is portrayed sympathetically - he's doing his time and has been a friend to the protagonist. Despite that, there's really no issue that he's not a saint or a role model, he's definitely not a Gary Stu or an author stand-in. This character says something that's not earthshaking horrible but is racist (relevant to me, it's a racist portrayal of Asians). It's a very small incident.

I have no doubt that the author has personally spent time with criminals who've said racist things, probably worse than that small incident. I mean, I've heard worse stuff from people who were supposed to be upstanding citizens. So I don't think it's unfair to include a streak of slight racism in a character with other flaws.

And I really don't want the author to start over-explaining things - some of the edits that I've suggested have been to cut out narrative explanations - so I don't want to read an explicit reminder that the character isn't the best person.

Yet it's not a book about racism, and it bothers me that this incident comes up at all. I feel that I may be unfairly biased. Is it too much to casually drop a racist character flaw on a character where racism isn't a major thematic issue? Can a character with this flaw be sympathetic (after all, we appear to be able to find many flawed characters sympathetic)? Or is it such a charged flaw that it takes over the scene and makes us unwilling to ever relate to the character again unless it's explicitly addressed and resolved? Must an author avoid it altogether if he's not willing to make it a theme?

[Plumb Cake]

This came up when I was helping a friend with comments on an unpublished novel.

A secondary character in his book is a criminal, but is portrayed sympathetically - he's doing his time and has been a friend to the protagonist. Despite that, there's really no issue that he's not a saint or a role model, he's definitely not a Gary Stu or an author stand-in. This character says something that's not earthshaking horrible but is racist (relevant to me, it's a racist portrayal of Asians). It's a very small incident.

I have no doubt that the author has personally spent time with criminals who've said racist things, probably worse than that small incident. I mean, I've heard worse stuff from people who were supposed to be upstanding citizens. So I don't think it's unfair to include a streak of slight racism in a character with other flaws.

And I really don't want the author to start over-explaining things - some of the edits that I've suggested have been to cut out narrative explanations - so I don't want to read an explicit reminder that the character isn't the best person.

Yet it's not a book about racism, and it bothers me that this incident comes up at all. I feel that I may be unfairly biased. Is it too much to casually drop a racist character flaw on a character where racism isn't a major thematic issue? Can a character with this flaw be sympathetic (after all, we appear to be able to find many flawed characters sympathetic)? Or is it such a charged flaw that it takes over the scene and makes us unwilling to ever relate to the character again unless it's explicitly addressed and resolved? Must an author avoid it altogether if he's not willing to make it a theme?

I would probably find it such a turn off that I would put the book down, and not pick it up again.

[Exa Inova]

You said it was relevant to you because it involved racism in regards to asians. My rational side would say it makes a richer character to include character flaws not relevant to the story but relevant to the character.

My non rational side sympathizes with you because I had a similar feeling with Chung Kuo where it is explained that during China's rise to power all african peoples are distroyed. I never played a great role in the series (at least not till the parts I read) but it angered me and cuased me to stop reading (chief among other reasons).

[Ouroboros]

It depends on the character, and how and more importantly why it is revealed. It certainly is fairly realistic for a criminal in modern society to be racist, so if he's aiming for realism in the character I think he should go for it. It sometimes bothers me, sometimes doesn't. It's one of those issues that really should be taken on a case by case basis.

[Seli]

Is it intended to be part of a series, or is there room for some sequels? Keep in mind that even if the racism is a bit out of place here it might get important in other books.

Personally it probably would not bother me too much, depending on the exact comment and context. But then I have yet to be a victim of racism myself.

[delete this account pls]

Eponine, my gut reaction was similar to yours, without the personal involvement. But then I started thinking about how other flawed characters can still be very sympathetic, even loveable. Just look at some of my favourites from ASOIAF;

Tyrion is a rapist (Tysha) and a murderer many times over (Tywin, Shae, the bard that tried to blackmail him). Jaime threw Bran out a window to his almost-death. Daenerys is responsible for thousands of killings, including the sack of two seperate cities.

All three of those characters have committed some fairly vile acts.

You also mentioned the racist character had just got out of prison? Racism is virtually mandated in a place like that, and after a while, I imagine it would become almost a habit, something the person doesn't even think about. Not an excuse, of course, but it's a realistic explanation, possibly?

[Papirolle]

Yeah, I wouldn't put down a book because of such an event, I'd probably just lower my opinion of the character. In cases where the protagonist is an utter asshole it can ruin my liking of a book, Disciple of the Dog for example, where the main character practically is the book. I hated the character Disciple but kept reading anyway.

A writer must be able to portray a character with severe flaws, even if he is supposedly a good guy. We all have bad sides.

When it comes to fantasy, I don't think the same rules apply. Killing, for example, is not as big a deal as it would be for us in this world.

[Ahmrogar]

This came up when I was helping a friend with comments on an unpublished novel.

A secondary character in his book is a criminal, but is portrayed sympathetically - he's doing his time and has been a friend to the protagonist. Despite that, there's really no issue that he's not a saint or a role model, he's definitely not a Gary Stu or an author stand-in. This character says something that's not earthshaking horrible but is racist (relevant to me, it's a racist portrayal of Asians). It's a very small incident.

I have no doubt that the author has personally spent time with criminals who've said racist things, probably worse than that small incident. I mean, I've heard worse stuff from people who were supposed to be upstanding citizens. So I don't think it's unfair to include a streak of slight racism in a character with other flaws.

And I really don't want the author to start over-explaining things - some of the edits that I've suggested have been to cut out narrative explanations - so I don't want to read an explicit reminder that the character isn't the best person.

Yet it's not a book about racism, and it bothers me that this incident comes up at all. I feel that I may be unfairly biased. Is it too much to casually drop a racist character flaw on a character where racism isn't a major thematic issue? Can a character with this flaw be sympathetic (after all, we appear to be able to find many flawed characters sympathetic)? Or is it such a charged flaw that it takes over the scene and makes us unwilling to ever relate to the character again unless it's explicitly addressed and resolved? Must an author avoid it altogether if he's not willing to make it a theme?

I would say it makes a character more authentic.

Characters that do good deeds that are not lauded or made a point of, and that do bad things which are not relevant or have flaws that are realistic are better and more solid.

[Ereinion]

I don't think I would be bothered by it. Not every character flaw has to be explained, or become a major thematic issue. Just look at a show like the Sopranos, a group of murderers, homophobes and racists, and you can't help but love some of them. Of course there are limits where a character flaw can become so big it's almost impossible to feel sympathy form them (although that doesn't mean an unsympathetic character can't be interesting, in most cases it would be likely the other way around).

[Arthmail]

I would probably find it such a turn off that I would put the book down, and not pick it up again.

Really? But you'll read ASOIF, where there is multiple murders by main characters, incest, and all other sorts of vile acts, but an inkling of racism is too much? And its not even like its the authors racism, its a character. Will you not read stories about WWII from the Germans point of view then? Where does it stop?

I think its ridiculous that this is even coming up. People don't grow up in vacuums, even in fantasy lands. If the character made a racist comment about, say, an Orc or Elf, would you care? Do you only care becuase you fit the profile of where the racism is directed?

I think one of the reaons that fantasy is regarded so poorly amongst some is that we just don't have instances that ring true on an every day level. Our heroes with shining swords are saving the world, heaven forbid that one of them might actively dislike another group of people. Because that wouldn't be realistic at all.

My entire perspective has been skewed by my interactions with a co-worker. He's a fifty some year old white South African, and he is genuinely racist against blacks. But when you examine him a little bit closer, his reaction is not so beyond the norm. Shit happens in his former home country that many of us here have never exprienced. I'm not saying he's right, but some of the shit he has seen precludes me from actively disliking him. I know others that are racist, for no reason, and that pisses me off - but it doesn't mean that they are without redeeming features.

Racism sucks, but to ignore it, or hide it, is even worse. And on top of that, sympathetic characters can have major flaws. Its all about being as realastic as possible.

[Plumb Cake]

I have a low tolerance level for intolerance, and ignorance even in novels.

[sologdin]

Is it too much to casually drop a racist character flaw on a character where racism isn't a major thematic issue?

might be that a casual racist remark transforms the thematics from whatever it appeared to be be prior to the remark into race/racialism/racism. consider, e.g., how a handful of bizarre race references in LotR have generated tons of debate on that issue, overshadowing much else.

so, no, i don't think it's too much, from a writerly perspective, acknowledging, however, from a readerly perspective, that a casual remark on race restructures the text.

i.e., the solitary racist comment will refocus the narrative on that issue, at least for some readers--especially those trained in hypertextualist neoformalisms, whereby that single remark will reorganize the whole moving army of tropes, figures of speech, ambiguities, and other "complexities" into a force that undergirds the express racism and disseminates it through the entirety thereby.

[polishgenius]

I reckon as long as the trait isn't portrayed positively I wouldn't really care (if it's done well). Good people have negative traits, even massively distasteful ones, but one can still like them IRL. Pretending the same can't happen in fiction would strike me as a bit silly.

[aimlessgun]

Looks like it would depend on the readers :P

I personally would just take it as an authentic detail, if done well.

[Guest Raids]

There are a few possibilities. First question: is the character meant to be racist? If not, then the author was giving away their own unconconscious racist beliefs.

If so, then we have to ask why is the character meant to be racist? Is there any reason for that? Is it because the author just thought it added texture to the character? Does it play a role in the story (e.g. since the Sopranos came up, I was thinking of the episode where Tony is just loving sushi, but then it plays thematically with the storyline that's going on with Uncle Junior, and also develops the middle class average-ness of his character)? Is there some other reason? Like it's supposed to develop how prison can lead to particular character developments that would not otherwise be expected because it's such a strong environment?

Lastly, I hate to say it, but people still casually say arguably racist things about Asian people all of the time, and so maybe it's accurate in a way that you don't realize?

I am really having a hard time thinking of a similar example - usually authors are, if anything, overly heavy-handed and deliberate about pointing out the negative aspects of a character.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Regular people in real life are casually racist all the time, it would seem appropriate for fictional characters to reflect this.

ETA:

Having been a guest of the state at one point, I can confirm that racism isn't just prevalent in jail, it's pretty much the law. I would be surprised if someone getting out of long incarceration didn't let things slip every once in a bit.

[Eponine]

It depends on the character, and how and more importantly why it is revealed.

I guess one of my problems is that it's so small that it's not really "revealed". I agree that people do casually say racist things about Asians all the time (as well as other races, obviously), so it's accurate of a human character. But oddly perhaps, I'd rather see more a streak of racism as a flaw of a character with mixed good and bad, perhaps as a consequence of a racially tense environment, than see one small racist remark dropped into a story. Because that makes me wonder if the character is supposed to be racist as a deliberate choice of characterization, or if the author was simply being casually racist himself to drop it in a dialog without considering that it had implications.

I think its ridiculous that this is even coming up. People don't grow up in vacuums, even in fantasy lands. If the character made a racist comment about, say, an Orc or Elf, would you care? Do you only care becuase you fit the profile of where the racism is directed?

It's because I didn't grow up in a vacuum that it bothers me. Even in your situation, the reason you're sympathetic toward your coworker is because you know more about his history and experiences. That indicates to me that you did care why he was a racist. It's something that demands to be addressed or acknowledged in some way.

[Erik of Hazelfield]

How to write flawed characters: http://www.forresterlabs.com/limyaael/rant54511

Rule number one: "First, make sure that your character really has flaws, and not just traits that can be

turned to advantage in a flash or might make the character temporarily unattractive to someone else."

Being a bad cook, for instance, isn't a flaw unless the character actually works as a cook. You need flaws that impact the story. Flaws like having a short temper or a nervous behaviour are better because they make it harder for the hero, and you can write about interesting situations that arise because of these flaws.

Being racist, however, is a different beast because it doesn't have to be a disadvantage for the character in the story. All it does in itself is making the reader think less of the character. I think it's an interesting flaw though, since it opens up new possibilities. Why is he racist? Has he always been or was it something that happened? Is it something that can be overcome or does he stay that way? Can you be a good person even though you're racist?

[Shryke]

It'll cause issues for some readers.

Even though it shouldn't.

[Liadin]

It makes me ask, why include it at all? If the author wants to deal with racism in some way, great. If not, there are all sorts of unsavory things about life that don't make it into most books. (And while it's natural for this character to be racist, I wonder why nobody around him responds. It doesn't sound like all the characters are prisoners.) Is this the sort of book where characters take a shit onstage, cursing is everywhere, even the best relationships are full of flaws, etc.? If it's a "gritty" sort of book and the character isn't meant to be a great guy anyway, then it would seem to fit as part of the tone the author is going for. But if it's a mostly polite or idealistic book, the character is meant to be sympathetic and racism isn't dealt with, then yeah, it would seem jarring to me.

Particularly so when you're in the group that's being insulted, yet you're still being asked to like the character. Sure, lots of people in real life are racist, but when it shows up on the page the character is saying it in front of you, so it doesn't seem at all unnatural to be bothered by it. And if it isn't dealt with, somebody who doesn't know the author could just as easily conclude that they find racism acceptable, not that it was meant to be a flaw.