Wise Man's Fear Spoilers Thread (SPOILERS)

[bcwoods]

I boggled at the thought of a family older than empires. "So the Lockless family became the Lackless family? What reason could a family have for changing its name?"

"There are historians who would cut off their own right hands to answer that," Caudicus said. "It's generally accepted that there was some sort of falling out that splintered the family. Each piece took on a separate name. In Atur they became the Lack-key family.They were numerous, but fell on hard times. That's where the word 'lackey' comes from, you know. All those paupered nobility forced to scrape and bow to make ends meet.

So we're got a Lack-key, a Lock-less, and a Lackless?

Anyone else think these name changes might revolve around the possession of a door and a key?

The Lack-Keys had a key but not a door. The Lock-less family had a door but not a key until finally the Lackless family had both items in their possession.

I recall Kvothe reading (or overhearing, I couldn't find the quote) a rumor somewhere about the Lady Lackless having a stone door on her estate.

If the Lackless family are descended from the Amyr, it may be that they were charged with protecting those items as Skarpi's story seems to indicate the bad guys were hidden away behind doors of stone.

I'd be willing to bet that there's a key inside of the Loeclos box that opens that stone door.

[Eddard Stark]

I finished WMF about a day after purchasing. I also attended Pat's talk in Seattle. It was quite fun, as Pat is quite funny and has great delivery.

He had an interesting comment, which I thought I'd share: "If I wrote something in the book, you should assume it's there for a good reason." Similarly he pointed out that when he elides something, that too is for a reason - he is telling a story, not writing an encyclopedia of the 4 corners. So while I found parts of the book slow, I'm assuming they were all in there for a good reason...just ones I don't understand (yet).

Pat is very big on...I'm not sure I'd call it foreshadowing (which he uses as well), but rather dropping references early on which are later explained. For example, 'Puppet' was first mentioned in book one by either Sim or Wil (but not explained). There were several other, but I cannot recall them precisely at the moment. I think the point is that what might be construed by the reader as an off-hand and somewhat irrelevant remark, is rarely such.

Good catch on Bredon potentially being Master Ash - I never noticed that, although I was quickly suspicious about Meluan being Kvothe's aunt.

WRT Denna - it's pretty clear that she does act as a...courtesan, but she generally tries to avoid actually having to sleep with anyone (hence the running away constantly). I think several folks listed out a number of reasons (the Cthaeh, her own commentary on men, pawning of gifts, her discussion with the run-away girl and self-loathing, keeping Kvothe for herself and not talking about him with Master Ash). One point which wasn't really mentioned was that when Kvothe rescues the two girls from the fake-Ruh, he notes that their eyes remind him of Denna.

My reading was that the trauma/sorrow/mental anguish he sees in their eyes (at least the eyes of the one who's mind didn't snap) is somewhat akin to what he sees in Denna's. I wish I had the book nearby so I could cite it (perhaps someone else can?). But it was pretty clearly implying that she had at least one traumatic experience with men in general. It would also explain why she's somewhat emotionally...odd (perhaps immature/awkward?).

Interesting thought about someone poisoning Arthur Herma (the Chancellor) to prevent Kvothe from learning Yllish. I never considered that.

Separately, one poster suggested WOT references, I'm curious what they see?

- the full name of the Maer is Merand, not Rand. Rand is short, just as Arl is short for Arliden.

- sword forms are from martial arts, something WOT also borrowed.

The one similarity I saw was in the way the two books treated magic and altered states of mind "the void", or "heart of stone" or "spinning leaf".

Enjoyable read and a good thread.

[AverageGuy]

- the full name of the Maer is Merand, not Rand. Rand is short, just as Arl is short for Arliden.

Rand Alveron is undoubtedly a WOT reference. I don't consider it a problem, rather it's an easter egg for fantasy fans. Martin, among others, has done the same thing.

But I don't really consider the warrior culture a Jordanism, either. It predates Jordan by a few thousand years; Jordan's Aiel specifically seem to be inspired by Dune's Fremen. Wherever Rothfuss got his inspiration, it's appeared plenty of times before and since.

[RogueSock]

I finished WMF about a day after purchasing. I also attended Pat's talk in Seattle. It was quite fun, as Pat is quite funny and has great delivery.

He had an interesting comment, which I thought I'd share: "If I wrote something in the book, you should assume it's there for a good reason." Similarly he pointed out that when he elides something, that too is for a reason - he is telling a story, not writing an encyclopedia of the 4 corners. So while I found parts of the book slow, I'm assuming they were all in there for a good reason...just ones I don't understand (yet).

Pat is very big on...I'm not sure I'd call it foreshadowing (which he uses as well), but rather dropping references early on which are later explained. For example, 'Puppet' was first mentioned in book one by either Sim or Wil (but not explained). There were several other, but I cannot recall them precisely at the moment. I think the point is that what might be construed by the reader as an off-hand and somewhat irrelevant remark, is rarely such.

Good catch on Bredon potentially being Master Ash - I never noticed that, although I was quickly suspicious about Meluan being Kvothe's aunt.

WRT Denna - it's pretty clear that she does act as a...courtesan, but she generally tries to avoid actually having to sleep with anyone (hence the running away constantly). I think several folks listed out a number of reasons (the Cthaeh, her own commentary on men, pawning of gifts, her discussion with the run-away girl and self-loathing, keeping Kvothe for herself and not talking about him with Master Ash). One point which wasn't really mentioned was that when Kvothe rescues the two girls from the fake-Ruh, he notes that their eyes remind him of Denna.

My reading was that the trauma/sorrow/mental anguish he sees in their eyes (at least the eyes of the one who's mind didn't snap) is somewhat akin to what he sees in Denna's. I wish I had the book nearby so I could cite it (perhaps someone else can?). But it was pretty clearly implying that she had at least one traumatic experience with men in general. It would also explain why she's somewhat emotionally...odd (perhaps immature/awkward?).

Interesting thought about someone poisoning Arthur Herma (the Chancellor) to prevent Kvothe from learning Yllish. I never considered that.

Separately, one poster suggested WOT references, I'm curious what they see?

- the full name of the Maer is Merand, not Rand. Rand is short, just as Arl is short for Arliden.

- sword forms are from martial arts, something WOT also borrowed.

The one similarity I saw was in the way the two books treated magic and altered states of mind "the void", or "heart of stone" or "spinning leaf".

Enjoyable read and a good thread.

On page seven I wrote a bit concerning Denna, would like to hear your thoughts on it. Sounds like we are both on the same page.

[R_Thunder]

Thats what I wasn't sure about - if Denna was sleeping with these men on the implication that they'd give her gifts (like medieval sugardaddies), which seems to be the case at the least, or if she's an out-and-out whore with these men simply paying her for sex/companionship. Most of her interactions with the men seem to imply the former, but the way she talks to the girl in the tavern seems to imply that she's also experienced the latter at some point, which might explain why she's so desperate to not let these men control her now.

I really dont like Denna. Devi is much more interesting. Hope she has a play in the next book, if not books.

That song pretty much seals the fact that Kvothe is Meluan's nephew. And if the Lackless's are descendents of Amyr...well that would make sense.

[RogueSock]

I really dont like Denna. Devi is much more interesting. Hope she has a play in the next book, if not books.

That song pretty much seals the fact that Kvothe is Meluan's nephew. And if the Lackless's are descendents of Amyr...well that would make sense.

We know most of Devi's story though! I personally dig Denna, lot of mystery still.

[Blue Steel]

Regarding Mr. Ashe...

I don't think Cinder is Ashe at all.

After reading this book I believe Bredon is Denna's Patron.

Denna explained that he had dealings with the Maer, and that with the circles Kvothe has been in, he has already likely met him.

-Bredon enjoys playing games, Mr. Ashe thinks of beating Denna as a "game", the twisted sick bastard.

-Mr. Ashe and Bredon both have a cane.

-Mr. Ashe and Bredon both have white hair.

-Bredon told Kvothe he just took up dancing, Denna said Mr. Ashe is a surprising good dancer.

-The rumors of his Bredon's "rituals in the woods" goes along nicely with Mr. Ashe being at the wedding.

-Why spend such a large amount of time on a character that does not have a backstory given, if not to signify such a betraying and dramatic revelation.

I saw that there were a couple posts regarding Bredon as Ashe. This is a post I made under a review and wanted to hear everyone's thoughts.

So far loving this thread!

Bredon could be both Ashe and Cinder thouh couldn't he? He went away for a few days before Kvothe left to deal with the bandits. It was actually mentioned twice that Bredon was still away from his estate before Kvothe went on his mission. Why mention that at that particular time?

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

I enjoyed the book as a whole, but just didn't find the Adem plausible. Are there no lesbian Adem? Do they never away from Ademre for more than 9 months? Have they never noticed that children after a mercenary stint might have different colored hair or anything? Since they're all badasses, why can't they just settle themselves in better land instead of fighting for questionable causes around the world? And the Ketan... ugh. I remember reading that some people were put off by the unrealistic depiction of musicianship in the TNOTW and I'm feeling the same way abotu the martial arts in this book. It honestly would have been more plausible if the Lethani were actual some sort of magical fighting ability that was powered by silence and fidgeting.

[RogueSock]

Bredon could be both Ashe and Cinder thouh couldn't he? He went away for a few days before Kvothe left to deal with the bandits. It was actually mentioned twice that Bredon was still away from his estate before Kvothe went on his mission. Why mention that at that particular time?

Good point, on another thread someone countered my opinion that Bredon is Ashe, with Bredon is actually one of the Amyr who takes interest in Kvothe. Food for thought.

But that is an excellent point you make, what was he up to?

[Kosciuszko]

I read both TNOTW and WMF back to back for the first time in the last couple of days.

I really did prefer the second book to the first. Basically, the character development is why. The first book I kind of felt Kvothe was just a bit too awesome. Too much better than everyone. I really loved it still, though, partly because I kept in mind that he likely screwed everything up royally at some point.

The second book, I laughed out loud several times. I saw ruptures starting to appear in Kvothe and he became more flawed. I liked the fact that we didn't have to hear so much about sympathy and that naming was finally explored. Felurian dragged a bit but I loved the bandit sequence.

Either way, a new series to read. I'm... not sure how to feel about that. But at least they're enjoyable reads. Cannot wait for book 3 to come out. I wanna see how everything goes wrong for Kvothe, though PR's given some really strong hints :D

[Eddard Stark]

On page seven I wrote a bit concerning Denna, would like to hear your thoughts on it. Sounds like we are both on the same page.

Page 7 of what? This thread only has 4 pages...

[RogueSock]

Page 7 of what? This thread only has 4 pages...

Weird I am showing 8 pages now.

[Curethan]

Just finished. Best bildungsroman I've read. Rothfuss does humour and romance very well, and I love all the little mini-stories that convey his mythology.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Rand Alveron is undoubtedly a WOT reference. I don't consider it a problem, rather it's an easter egg for fantasy fans. Martin, among others, has done the same thing.

But I don't really consider the warrior culture a Jordanism, either. It predates Jordan by a few thousand years; Jordan's Aiel specifically seem to be inspired by Dune's Fremen. Wherever Rothfuss got his inspiration, it's appeared plenty of times before and since.

It was just a bit too close for my taste. I understand common origins and such, but it was REALLY close to identical. The only real difference that I noted was that Randland forms apparently are for swords only whereas Ketan forms could be used for sword or barehanded (at least some of them)

TBH it was the Ademic "poses" that made me grow tired of the Adem anyway.

Will say, however, that I really appreciated how Tempi is built up to be so awesome and then Kvothe goes with him to Ademre, and they're like, "yeah Tempi basically sucks"

I enjoyed the book as a whole, but just didn't find the Adem plausible. Are there no lesbian Adem? Do they never away from Ademre for more than 9 months? Have they never noticed that children after a mercenary stint might have different colored hair or anything? Since they're all badasses, why can't they just settle themselves in better land instead of fighting for questionable causes around the world? And the Ketan... ugh. I remember reading that some people were put off by the unrealistic depiction of musicianship in the TNOTW and I'm feeling the same way abotu the martial arts in this book. It honestly would have been more plausible if the Lethani were actual some sort of magical fighting ability that was powered by silence and fidgeting.

I agree, I thought it was completely stupid for the Adem to not realize that sex is responsible for pregnancy. When he and Penthe are arguing about it, it nearly became a Wallbanger for me... mostly because of the part where she attacked Kvothe's logic for saying that everything only happened sometimes while failing to realize that her logic boiled down to something women build up anger inside of themselves for a random amount of time until a baby magically appears, fashioned from said anger.

[Spoony]

I particularly liked how Tempi would spy on Kvothe while he was playing his lute - like some sort of peeping tom.

[jurble]

IIRC, there was a tribe of people in New Guinea that ate yams. The yams were a natural form of birth-control, so they never realized sex = babies. It's in one of Jared Diamond's books.

[TheValyrianDragonlord]

*Sigh

yeah i love this book. Wonderful sequel. Rothfuss's prose is so incredibly smooth and polished. What I find fascinating about his prose is that it isn't "beautiful" like some other authors'. Guy gavriel kay has "beautiful" poetic prose. Same with Daniel Abraham and Susanna Clarke. They've got very distinctive styles. I find rothfuss a bit hard to pin down. This was the fastest 1000 pages I've ever read. But his prose isn't "bestseller" barebones dan brown style stuff. It's just so simple functional and right.

To be honest I was pretty critical of the name of the wind. I liked it but resented the fact that i liked it. I am now an unabashed rothfuss fan. Seriously looking forward to book 3. Hope the wait's a lot shorter this time around.

Love the discussion of book here. Wonderful find by pufferfish on Kvothe's mother being netalia lackless. Anyone think that bredon is one of the amyr and the angel that kvothe eventually kills?

[Spoony]

I did not like the writing style.

Particularly the descriptions that Kvothe/Rothfuss overused - like the bit about his ramston steel Allar.

How many times was that mentioned?

He did a good job on a lot of the banter - but a lot of the descriptions bored me, particularly when the book didn't appear to be going anywhere or progressing the story in any worthwhile way.

People talk about how they think Kvothe is a "dark" character - but he clearly isn't.

Murdering a group of rapists is not dark. It might be considered harsh - but it reads as a lazy move by the author to make him seem more sympathetic. Like a bad action movie starring Jean Claude Van Damm - where the protaganist is trying to murder people who raped/murdered his wife/daughter.

It is just a bit move to make the character more 'heroic'.

It would have been dark if Kvothe had done this just because these people had murdered the Ruh they were impersonating - it also would have made the sequence more interesting.

Instead we just get Kvothe being nice to some victimized women, and then breaking some kids arm. Woop-de-doo. (Male chauvinism will never recover from this poignant scene).

I can't wait for the series to deal with with the older Kvothe more. Because I really didn't like the young Kvothe in this book.

He is boring, over-emotional, and way too fixated on Denna, who is a character I don't like. (She strikes me as unextraordinary and way too self-involved. And the dynamic between her and Kvothe isn't just a lazy vehicle for story progression, it is also thoroughly boring and overplayed).

[Spoony]

I also didn't like all that crap about love being an indescribable concept.

It is a social mechanism that serves many purposes - the foremost of which is increasing the likelihood of human pair bonding and breeding - but it also exists for social cohesion and altruism.

There is something experiential in its quality - but this should not be mistaken as anything 'mystical'

(The Ademer philosophy on fate/life/morality also seemed especially contrived to me).

I don't think I want to meet Patrick Rothfuss.

I have a feeling I wouldn't like him.

[Slick Mongoose]

Are you sure that's what happened? Evidence seems to point to the shapers winning. They have their own little pocket universe filled to the brim with magic and they got to keep the moon, even though the namers wanted it back. Compare this to the mortal world, where naming has been relegated to children's stories. And remember how Lanre and his chandrians caused the last remaining cities to fall? All the cities of the namers were destroyed with the sole exception of Aleph's city.

Well, in Skarpi's story he says that the losers of the great battle (when Lanre died) were sealed behind doors of stone. Although obviously not all of them, because the war continued.

Maybe stone doors are general use prisons? There may be loads of stone doors all over the place, each holding something/someone different.....