409 replies to this topic

[Aoife]

Just to go back to Lady Lackless - it's a lot more than the word "Tally".

Say "Not Tally a lot less".
Now say "Netalia Lockless".
(Now, say both as you imagine Pat Rothfuss to speak. )

[jaerken]

LordRhaegarLieefAeryksson, on 10 March 2011 - 02:59 PM, said:

Just to go back to Lady Lackless - it's a lot more than the word "Tally".

Say "Not Tally a lot less".
Now say "Netalia Lockless".
(Now, say both as you imagine Pat Rothfuss to speak. )

I thought everyone has been working under that assumption already.  The real question is what are the last lines supposed to mean.  Is Arliden saying it's worth his life to make his wife into a new identity?  OMG MORE NAME CHANGE ISSUES

Also, Kvothe mentioned that naming a person is hard because of complexity.  So if someone believes they're a failed innkeeper, would that change their name?

[jaerken]

also more food for thought.  what is the nature of the enshaeden / the ring of air?

does it look like any other cloak to average people?  does it hide kvothe?  does it protect?  how does he make it into different types of clothing?  is it magic?  something else?  tailoring?

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

Hypothesis:

Denna's song about Lanre being a tragic hero doesn't get the Chandrian involved, Haliax is bemused if anything, but it ends up pissing off Tehlu and the Angels.  Or at least an angel, I'd imagine Tehlu is pretty hardcore about his judging only what he sees, and thus doesn't give a shit about the past.  The other angels swore to do the same and judge only what they see and not the past, but I'd wager it's possible that one of them still harbors resentment towards Lanre, and Denna's song pisses him off.  He comes for Denna, and Kvothe kills an angel.

[Poobah]

Jurble, on 10 March 2011 - 03:37 PM, said:

Hypothesis:

Denna's song about Lanre being a tragic hero doesn't get the Chandrian involved, Haliax is bemused if anything, but it ends up pissing off Tehlu and the Angels.  Or at least an angel, I'd imagine Tehlu is pretty hardcore about his judging only what he sees, and thus doesn't give a shit about the past.  The other angels swore to do the same and judge only what they see and not the past, but I'd wager it's possible that one of them still harbors resentment towards Lanre, and Denna's song pisses him off.  He comes for Denna, and Kvothe kills an angel.

The other half of the story in which Kvothe is supposed to have killed an angel says that he had to trick a demon to get his heart's desire (and then kill an angel to keep it).

Also with regards to the discussion a while back about when the Chronicler studied at the University: Elodan was Chancellor 5 years before Kvothe arrived. He was then locked in Haven for 2 years before he learned the name of the wall and escaped. Either the Chronicler studied with Elodan (learned the name of iron and was told to sod off for being a twat by Elodan) some time in the 3 years prior to Kvothe's gaining admittance to the University, or he did it after Kvothe left.

Edited by Poobah, 10 March 2011 - 04:15 PM.

[Slick Mongoose]

jaerken, on 10 March 2011 - 03:24 PM, said:

The real question is what are the last lines supposed to mean.  Is Arliden saying it's worth his life to make his wife into a new identity?  OMG MORE NAME CHANGE ISSUES

I thought he might have risked his life in carrying her off, as it were. He's saying it was worth it. Or maybe it's just nonsense to get her name into the song.

Edit: I think the angel fight is what i'm looking forward to most for book 3. It better not be one of those "Oh, we didn't really fight, that's just a story" or "It wasn't that important so I won't talk about it" things. Give me my angel fight dammit.

Edited by Slick Mongoose, 10 March 2011 - 04:29 PM.

[Guy Kilmore]

Slick Mongoose, on 10 March 2011 - 04:16 PM, said:

I thought he might have risked his life in carrying her off, as it were. He's saying it was worth it.

This.

[TeaSpoon]

Okay, this is my last revision of the place name list

Quote

Ceald
- Ralien
- Anilin

Commonwealth
- Hallowfell
- Imre
- Tarbean
- Belenay-Barren
- Trebon
- The eastern marshes ~ Baron Greyfallow is the lord of this place
- Hudumbran-by-Thiren ~ See above
- The Wydeconte Hills ~ See above
- Montrone ~ See above
- Trelliston ~ See above
- Fallows ~ Where Kvothe heard the Lady Lackless song
- Temfalls ~ Near Trebon
- Evesdown ~ Had docks, so near water

Yll

Aturan Empire
- Atur
- Dalonir ~ Simmon's duchy
- Aturna ~ Near Simmon's duchy
- Gibea ~ Name of Amyr duke, but possibly also the name of the duchy

The Small Kingdoms
- Junpui

Modeg
- Cershaen

Vintas
- Renere
- The free city of Tinue
- Severen
- Levinshir
- Temsford
- Crosson
- The Pirate Isles ~ Ambrose's Barony
- The western farrel ~ Girl helped by Denna was from a town in this place
- Bannis ~ There's a Viceroy of Bannis, so presumably there's a Bannis
- Abbot's Ford ~ Mentioned in Present segments
- Rannish ~ See above
- Newarre ~ See above
- Baedn (Possibly Baedn-Bryt)~ See above
- Treya ~ See above
- Melcombe ~ See above
- Resavek ~ Rebels fighting the Penitent King in this place

Ademre
- Haert
- Feant

Faerie
- the Tain Mael
- the Daendan
- the Gorse Court
- Twilight - Bast is the prince of twilight and the Telwyth Mael
- the Telwyth Mael

Seas, Oceans, and Rivers
- The Reft
- the Refting Strait ~ The straight between Yll and Common Wealth coast South-East of Tarbean
- Arrand River ~ Either in Vintas or the Small Kingdoms
- the Omethi River ~ Runs past Imre

Mountains
- The Stormwal Mountains ~ Bordering Modeg and Vintas
- The Shalda Mountains ~ Bordering Ceald and the Commonwealth

The Tahlenwald

Unknown
- Enfast
- Lanett
- Arueh
- Glantz
- Bredon
- Caluptena
- Sceria
- Faeriniel ~ Possibly fictional
- Vi Sembi
- Vartheret ~ One of the cities visited by Denna
- Andenivan ~ See above
- Purvis ~ Mentioned by Present Kvothe in NotW
- Three Crossings ~ Where relatives live.
- Staup ~ Where Abenthy grew up
- Peleresin ~ Where Kvothe's parents saw a lodenstone
- Tarvintas
- Aetnia
- Marrow
- Senarin
- Avennish strawberry wine ~ Avenna? Avenne?
- Velegen wine ~ Same problem as above
- Aryen ~ Where the Roah wood for the mounting board came from

Empire of Ergen
- Belen
- Antus
- Vaeret
- Tinusa
- Emlen
- Murilla
- Murella
- Myr Tariniel
- Drosson Tor

Edited by TeaSpoon, 10 March 2011 - 04:25 PM.

[YoMama]

I set this up quickly if a lot of people want their own place to go:

http://www.kingkillerchronicles.org/

I know I wanted my own place to go, but I am a lurker generally, not a contributor. I have also never set up a discussion board before, so apologies in advance.

You can contact me at [email protected] if there are any problems

[Slick Mongoose]

jaerken, on 10 March 2011 - 03:24 PM, said:

The real question is what are the last lines supposed to mean.  Is Arliden saying it's worth his life to make his wife into a new identity?  OMG MORE NAME CHANGE ISSUES

Slick Mongoose, on 10 March 2011 - 04:16 PM, said:

I thought he might have risked his life in carrying her off, as it were. He's saying it was worth it. Or maybe it's just nonsense to get her name into the song.

Or (the thought strikes me like lightning):

They're not married. He's asking her to marry him. Even if it means he'll incur the wrath of the Lackless family. She says no.  

Edited by Slick Mongoose, 10 March 2011 - 04:30 PM.

[Aoife]

jaerken, on 10 March 2011 - 03:24 PM, said:

I thought everyone has been working under that assumption already.  The real question is what are the last lines supposed to mean.  Is Arliden saying it's worth his life to make his wife into a new identity?  OMG MORE NAME CHANGE ISSUES

Also, Kvothe mentioned that naming a person is hard because of complexity.  So if someone believes they're a failed innkeeper, would that change their name?

A lot of people are, yes, but just based on Tally. I'm just pointing out that it's not just her nickname that's in there, but her whole name, for anyone who'll hear it. Which is, of course, part of why she got so upset by it, if she was trying to hide her identity.

For all her faults I do confess
It's worth my life
To make my wife
Netalia Lackless

I figure he was probably under a death warrant if any of the Lacklesses caught him, for "sullying" their daughter and heir. (Which would, again, potentially put Kvothe as heir above Meluan, if he can get recognised.) He's saying it's all worth it, though, and that she still is Netalia as well as Laurian.

Of course, why Laurian? It's not an obvious anagram (Maedre, Ademre), but for a place where names have so many meanings, it has to have come from somewhere.

[Slick Mongoose]

LordRhaegarLieefAeryksson, on 10 March 2011 - 04:34 PM, said:

A lot of people are, yes, but just based on Tally. I'm just pointing out that it's not just her nickname that's in there, but her whole name, for anyone who'll hear it. Which is, of course, part of why she got so upset by it, if she was trying to hide her identity.

For all her faults I do confess
It's worth my life
To make my wife
Netalia Lackless

Sorry Eef, it's a good spot but it's already been seen:

Pufferfish123, on 07 March 2011 - 12:01 PM, said:

...

furthermore, the last three lines can basically be read as "It's worth my life to make my wife Netalia Lockless". It seems likely that the real reason Kvothe's mother made his father sleep under the wagon after he made that song is not because it had a bad meter as Kvothe claims but because it gave away her identity as Netalia Lockless.

[lokivore]

Hi all,

First post on these forums.

First, some really great catches by everyone.  I know it's been said, but the Natalia Lockless in the poem was excellent.

Second, I agree that Cinder did not run from Kvothe and his magic.  I think that it was Marten's prayer that alerted Tehlu (who is not an Amyr: see Tarpi's second story from NOTW) to their attention.  

Third, I always thought there was some significance to Denna's drugged mumbling when drugged in NOTW:

Quote

I scooped her up, blankets and all, and carefully made my way down to the ground.  I bundled her up again between the arch of the greystones.  She seemed to rouse herself slightly as I jostled her around.  "Denna?"
"Moteth?" she muttered around a mouthful of sleep, her eyes barely moving under her lids.

I always thought Moteth was the name of Master Ash, yet, after reading WMF, I completely agree that Bredon is her patron.  So, right now, I think perhaps Moteth is another name for Bredon, maybe a demonic one?  

Or maybe it's just a red herring and she was really calling for her mother.

Fourth, we know that Kvothe rescues a princess at some point.  Perhaps that's Auri. I think she's going to play a bigger role in book 3, as she hasn't done much yet, other than help Kvothe get into the library for a few months before he would have been allowed in anyways.

OK, that's it.  Thanks.

[Watson-Crick]

A couple of thoughts:

1) With regards to the Lackless poems, I think the the "ring not for wearing"/"a ring unworn" would have to be the wooden ring given by Meluan (not an innuendo at all)

2) To add evidence to the Bredon/Cinder connection, both are described as having white hair that frames the face. Also the Cthaeh indicates that the Chandrian are good at hiding their attributes (in this case black goat's eyes).

Edited by Watson-Crick, 10 March 2011 - 07:07 PM.

[jaerken]

It can't be helped that people see Bredon as Cinder, it would be poetic to some extent.  

When they play Tak, Bredon plays the deep game... playing a beautiful game to prolong it and win in an elegant way.  He makes it clear that he could trounce Kvothe in 3 moves any time he wants.  This sort of thing is quite telling in these types of books as a mirror for personality.  Our experiences with Cinder do not suggest this personality at all.  However, Denna's experience with her patron DO suggest that her patron has a similar type of personality.  Also, he hits her until she reaches her breaking point rather than beating the crap out of her at once.  Slow torture.. just like his Tak game.

One thing that I just thought of was that the book made special emphasis of how ruthless the Amyr could be.  This is far fetched, but if Bredon was truly playing a deep game, perhaps he's using Denna as some sort of test to get Kvothe to make decisions for the greater good rather than picking his love for what's right.  

Though proceeding with this type of guessing is pure speculation.  There are bigger and more concrete mysteries to solve: Why was Caudicus poisoning the Maer while a Chandrian was simultaneously waylaying his tax collectors?  There must be another clue about what the Maer is up to.  Perhaps the Alveron->Lockless alliance?  What possible interest could the Chandrian have in the monetary affairs of Alveron's court?

[lasteclispe]

Ok I have a few things to say but let me start with.

1)As far and the second trilogy. I think it has nothing to do with Kvothe. I’m pretty sure his Story/Life ends with book three. He may live on as a legend people tell stories about in the second trilogy but that’s about it.

I feel this way because of some things  that’s Patrick rothfuss said. He said that we wanted to keep writing in the world but never seemed to indicate the future works in the world had anything to do with Kvothe.

Another reason is based on his interview between brendon sanderson and himself on Amazon it seems pretty clear what he intended with kvoth’s story. He said:

“Yeah. The story originally started with the Sentence. "My Name is Kvothe." There was no Waystone Inn. No Bast. No Chronicler. Just him telling his story.”

Since we know he wrote the whole story years ago it seems like everything in the current day “world” was added for padding. I believe that in his original story it was just Kvothe telling his story and he somehow ended up dead at the end. I saw some other clues to my theory on other interviews and such but I have no time to find the links right now as I’m at work. Maybe will add some more when I get home.

2) Back to the book. I read something on patricks rothfuss’s blog . I will post link.
http://blog.patrickr...things-to-come/

According to Patrick someone that knew lots about the world read “The Wise Man’s Fear” and sent him that picture. The reason I’m posting this is because to me that picture had NOTHING to do with the book. I assume there’s something I’m not able to connect. Anyone have ad idea what that could be?

[Aoife]

Dammit, I even read that post. I just then got hung up on what seemed to be everyone else getting hung up on just "Tally".

Edited by LordRhaegarLieefAeryksson, 10 March 2011 - 07:37 PM.

[jaerken]

this picture is better: http://i.imgur.com/9gqsl.jpg

blood on the hands, doing what needs doing, the tower surrounded by flame emblem.. all things mentioned in the book.  probably a scene out of the Maer's favorite Amyr story.

[ttrslk]

I think that changing one's Name is not as simple as some have implied in others posts. Nor that Kvothe has his Name locked in his box. I believe changing one's Name its a process as hard and complex as understanding it.

Kvothe believes he's a disaster (as choosing "Kote" for his new calling name suggests). His actions made everyone's lives worse (as when he claims responsability for the ongoing war). To himself, he is a big failure. And to complicate matters, when he faked his death and went into hiding, he had to forsake much of what defines him, like his music (which is so much of who he is, as we have seen in the books), his personallity, etc.

So, as a result of playing the role of Kote the innkeeper, day after day, and believing being Kote, he is changing his Name, which causes all kind of trouble when he tries to use his powers/abilities. That's why Bast is trying to make him remember who he is.

There's two paragraphs in Chapter Three of tNotW (Wood and Word), when Graham notes some changes in Kote's behavior and appearances, together with many others scenes in both books, that brought to light this possibility for me:

"In fact, Kote himself seemed rather sickly. Not exactly unhealthy, but hollow. Wan. Like a plant that's been moved into the wrong sort of soil and, lacking something vital, has begun to wilt. Graham noted the difference. The innkeeper's gestures weren't as extravagant. His voice wasn't as deep. Even his eyes weren't as bright as they had been a month ago. Their color seemed duller. They were less sea-foam, less green-grass than they had been. Now they were like riverweed, like the bottom of a green glass bottle. And his hair had been bright before, the color of flame. Now it seemed—red. Just red-hair color, really."

[jaerken]

to be honest, a lot of trying to speculate to the answers we all want to seek just makes the inevitable 3 year wait for book 3 that much harder.  that description of the changes in Kote is apt if a little on the nose.

If you took an MIT graduate and put him in the backwoods of Kentucky you'd have Kote, or possibly a dramedy hybrid of Justified and the Big Bang Theory.  

I always put more emphasis on the "waiting to die" that starts and ends each book.  More than likely, whatever can save Kvothe is in the box.  The phrases used to describe him trying to open the box ("Edro dammit, open!") suggest that he's now resigned to his fate.  There is no trick he has left that can save him.  Maybe he's afflicted by the Shaod from Elantris.