409 replies to this topic

[nonman_erratic]

Slick Mongoose, on 11 March 2011 - 09:36 AM, said:

I've thought about this a bit, but there's not really much info to go on. Clearly Auri is a good name, in Elodin's opinion (and Auri's). It'd be nice to know what it means - does it just mean sunny in a different language, or something completely different?.

Anyone notice that Auri is contained within Kvothe's mother's Ruh name LAURIan? I think Kvothe heard the "Sunny" etymology for Auri from some childhood explanation of his mother's name, Laurian.

WRT a wise man fearing a moonless night... Anyone pick up that Auri never comes out when the moon is shining? If there are clouds obscuring it she goes out on the rooftops, but when the moon comes out she hides. Felurian says a wise man views a moonless night with fear because you can get pulled into the dark moon's wake and be stuck in Fae. I can't quite figure out the connection...

[jaerken]

nonman_erratic, on 11 March 2011 - 06:36 PM, said:

Anyone notice that Auri is contained within Kvothe's mother's Ruh name LAURIan? I think Kvothe heard the "Sunny" etymology for Auri from some childhood explanation of his mother's name, Laurian.

WRT a wise man fearing a moonless night... Anyone pick up that Auri never comes out when the moon is shining? If there are clouds obscuring it she goes out on the rooftops, but when the moon comes out she hides. Felurian says a wise man views a moonless night with fear because you can get pulled into the dark moon's wake and be stuck in Fae. I can't quite figure out the connection...

I think the connection is that Auri is fae.... or of the fae, or somehow related to them.  Kvothe says several times that he thinks of her as his "little moon fae."  Or perhaps whatever made her cracked has to do with the fae coming over when the moon is in the sky.

Personally, I'm more interested in the significance of the little gifts she gives kvothe.  One of them from NOTW is a key that's supposed to unlock the moon.  Probably nonsense, but who knows at this point.

[jaerken]

I have two new observations today.  One of them makes me more certain of one theory and the other has made me rethink my position on another.

The former refers to Kvothe's box / the loeclos box holding a name.  I noticed the following when re-reading the part where Kvothe tells Cob the 'fake' myth of the Chronicler to teach Chronicler a lesson:

"... he knows Chronicler's weaknesses.  He knows if you trick Chronicler into drinking ink, he has to do the next three favors you ask of him.  And more important, he knows Chronicler can't control you if you have your name hidden away somewhere safe.  The high king's name is written in a book of glass, hidden in a box of copper.  And that box is locked away in a great iron chest where nobody can touch it."
...
Old Cob began nodding.  "That last bit trickled my memory..."

Earlier in the book Elxa Dal tells Kvothe "all truth is contained in stories" (paraphrase).  We know why iron is significant in this world and as I suggested with my earlier post, so is copper.  The former protects you from the Fae and the latter protects you from namers/shapers.  Speculation, but interesting nonetheless.  Regardless, I am more convinced than ever that the Loeclos box holds a name.  Maybe even Haliax's name, that's why he's "been alive for 5000 years and not a minute of sleep."

The other discovery is not as significant.  I previously thought that Kvothe would be expelled in book 3 but I'm not certain anymore.  My rational was that after he was promoted to Re'lar for calling the wind on Ambrose, he says "I was a fool. Eventually Ambrose got his revenge and I was caught flat footed and forced to leave the University."

I thought that last line was referring to his expulsion until I read the part where the magistrate comes him and arrests him at Ankers.  He says again after the constable reads the charges, "Needless to say, I was caught completely flat-footed."  And besides this, there are no obvious allusions to a coming expulsion in TWMF.  There are hints that trouble is coming but of the more general variety.

Typing it out, this theory does seem a little weak.  So maybe he does end up expelled, where I was 90% sure, I am now 50%.

[thistlepong]

I think Auri is the princess he rescues from the sleeping barrow king.

NotW - end of ch7
I have stolen princesses back from sleeping barrow kings.
WMF - ch2 (the attempt to prevent Aaron from enlisting)
"I can tell you stories no one has ever heard before.  Stories no one will ever hear again.  Stories about Felurian, how I learned to fight from the Adem.  The truth about Princess Ariel."

I didn't make the connection until I heard it on the audio version on the way out of town today.  The pronunciation is definitely Auri-el.

She's developed, mysterious, and charged with meaning.

She catalyzes Elodin's invitation.  She provides ingress to the archives.  Kvothe thinks of her as "my little moon Fae."  She brings regal gravity to their meals: descriptions like "She poured the beer so solemnly you'd think she was having tea with the king," occur repeatedly.

However, a couple things stand out further still.
First, some attention is given to her names for the Underthing: The names she gave them, nonsensical at first, fit like a glove when I finally saw what they described.  He elaborates on why and takes care to make observations of several - observations that suggest a Creation War city.
Second, while their gift giving rituals seem like a funny game, even to Kvothe, they're not.  She's deliberate.

NotW - ch53 (Auri gives him the Key)
She smiled and thrust her hand forward.  Something gleamed in the moonlight.  "A key," she said proudly, pressing it on me.
I took it.  It had a pleasing weight in my hand.  "It's very nice," I said.  "What does it unlock?"
"The moon," she said, her expression grave.

NotW - ch68 (Auri gives him the Coin)
Auri relaxed a bit and came a few steps closer to me.  "I brought you a feather with the spring wind in it, but since you were late..." she looked at me gravely, "you get a coin instead."  She held it out at arm's length, pinched between her thumb and forefinger.  "It will keep you safe at night.  As much as anything can, that is."  It was shaped like an Aturan penance piece, but it gleamed silver in the moonlight.  I'd never seen a coin like it.

WMF - ch11 (Auri gives him the Candle)
I came to my feet and she held out something wrapped in a piece of cloth.  It was thick candle that smelled of lavender.  "What's inside of it?" I asked.
"Happy dreams.  I put them there for you."

A few beats later she says, "I am as lovely as the moon."
(incidentally, she does come out in when the moon is in the sky)

All the focus on her accompanied by the Key, Coin, and Candle from the Taborlin stories, and the similarity of the names (even in Laurien precipitated his choice) suggest she's much more than an urchin in the sewers.

Edited by thistlepong, 12 March 2011 - 02:41 AM.

[AverageGuy]

thistlepong, on 12 March 2011 - 02:26 AM, said:

All the focus on her accompanied by the Key, Coin, and Candle from the Taborlin stories, and the similarity of the names (even in Laurien precipitated his choice) suggest she's much more than an urchin in the sewers.

You know, I'd actually been looking for the key, coin, and candle, I was trying to fit them to Kvothe in an update to the Taborlin story-- he has the cloak and the sword, the sympathy lamp and gram might replace the candle and coin, etc.  And I did think there was more to Auri and some of her gifts, but I completely missed what they added up to, nice catch.

[devilant]

I completely overlooked all those hints that Auri is the princess. Nice find thistlepong!

Another thing that fits is that she refuses to accept anything that's secondhand. Kvothe has to buy her brand new clothes.

[TeaSpoon]

Something I've noticed earlier but neglected to mention.

Lanre is said to carry a silver sword. Thus far, we haven't seen any silver swords yet, but we have seen swords made out of a greyish material: Caesura. I think Caesura is made of the same stuff Lanre's sword is made of, and Lanre carried it in a war against shapers, fighting supernatural creatures (possibly Fae). We also know that Caesura is Old. Really fucking old.

It was made by Chael, who shaped it in fire for an unknown purpose. He carried it then cast it aside.

This was the first owner. It takes about 8 seconds to read. Half an hour later of reading owners, we get to Finol of the clear and shining eye, much beloved of Dulcen. She slew two daruna, then was killed by gremmen at the Drossen Tor.

The battle of Drossen Tor at the height of the Creation War, where Lanre died and Lyra called him back. That's how old this sword it. Maybe it's a sword that can kill Chandrians.

By the way, does anyone have a clue what daruna and gremmen are?

[EDIT] Maybe the sword isn't silver but aluminum or some aluminum alloy. Aluminum rust is grey and it acts as a seal against further corrosion, allowing it to last a very long time. Aluminum alloy is generally only a third as hard a steel, though. Maybe they had better alloys.

Also, despite aluminum being the most abundant metal, it's rarely found in as an element, except in meteorites and stuff. You need electricity to make it, making it expensive before electricity was invented. The tip of the Washington Monument is made from aluminum.

Edited by TeaSpoon, 12 March 2011 - 06:26 AM.

[Slick Mongoose]

Caesura, sura,
Whatever will be, will be,
The future's not ours to see,
Caesura, sura.

[Zizoz]

What do we know about the Princess Ariel, besides that Kvothe probably rescued her from a sleeping barrow king? (Assuming that wasn't some other princess...)

[aariafromarty]

She moonlighted as a Life Wizard in Masters of Magic.

[lokivore]

Since we never learn the motive behind the assassination attempt on the Maer, has anyone considered the Jakis family might be behind it?  

As previously expounded upon, we know they've jumped up 4 places in the line of succession from book 1 (16th) to book 2 (12th), due to a ship being lost at sea.  Certainly, due to the suspicions of Kvothe's friends at the university, regarding Kvothe's shipwreck, it doesn't seem far-fetched to imagine that Ambrose's family had something to do with 4 members of a noble family drowning at sea.

If the Maer was gone, that's another spot up.  Plus, Claudicus spent some time at the Jakis estate recently.  Maybe they bribed him there.  It also seems reasonable that the family with a son training to be an arcanist would get along quite well with other court arcanists, if need be.

If that family is behind it, maybe Ambrose is the king that ends up being killed, though I am not sold on that as of yet.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Tormund Midgetsbane]

Dunno if this has been put forward yet, but  the Maer is heirless.  Since he married Kvothe's aunt, if both The Maer and his wife were to die childless wouldn't Kvothe (as his nearest male relative, his nephew on his wife's side) be the Maer's heir?

[Poobah]

Kvothe might not be illegitimate as such but he's certainly unrecognised.

[AverageGuy]

Tormund Midgetsbane, on 12 March 2011 - 05:39 PM, said:

Dunno if this has been put forward yet, but  the Maer is heirless.  Since he married Kvothe's aunt, if both The Maer and his wife were to die childless wouldn't Kvothe (as his nearest male relative, his nephew on his wife's side) be the Maer's heir?

He might be the Lackless heir if he was recognized.  Maybe.  His mother was the heir before she left, but there might be some cousins who could make a claim.  He wouldn't necessarily be the Maer's, though.  Depends on how inheritance works in Vintas-- I would assume the Maer would have to die first and Meluan Lackless get control of whatever he left behind without some fifth cousin twice removed making an issue of it, then Kvothe be established as her heir.  

Poobah, on 12 March 2011 - 05:43 PM, said:

Kvothe might not be illegitimate as such but he's certainly unrecognised.

He is illegitimate.  In the first book, he mentioned his parents never formally married.  In the second, when Ambrose wrote "Ruh bastard" in the ledger, Kvothe laughed it off and said it was all true.

Edited by AverageGuy, 12 March 2011 - 05:51 PM.

[Tengen]

Nice catches.  Wanted to point this out for those who didn't catch it about Kote and his beating he took.

Everything goes good then this happens:
The big man was forced to bend over, grimacing in pain. Then he jerked his arm roughly out of the innkeeper's grip. Kvothe had half a moment to look startled before the soldier's elbow caught him in the temple.

After its over he says:
Well that was embarrassing," Kvothe said. He touched his bloody face and looked at his fingers. He chuckled again, a jagged, joyless sound. "Forgot who I was there for a minute."

At first I took this to mean he was just playing at getting his butt kicked.  And he very well might have been at that, but combined with his loss of feeling in he left hand (thorn prick), seems obvious something is wrong with his left hand.  The way I take it now is he almost was back to his old Kvothe and was kicking butt but forgot about his left hand and was just moving by reflex.  Then the guy breaks his hold and he remembers he isn't what he used to be.  He still has all the moves and strength to fight, but after he remembered he isn't Kvothe I think he let himself get beaten up.

Also, you can change your 'Name' by changing who you are.  Paolini's book has a remarkably almost identical approach to naming as do several others I can't remember now, but Paolini's is most similar in that Murtagh's name was found out by Galbatorix and he said the only way he can change his name was by changing himself which is incredibly hard to do, its not just believing something else you have to truly BE someone else.  And as Bast was saying, wear a mask long enough and you'll believe you are someone else.  It stops being an act.  And I'm not saying their 'Magic Naming' system is the exact same, but through what people have said it's quite similar belief of 'true name'.

Edited by Tengen, 12 March 2011 - 08:20 PM.

[Sign]

nonman_erratic, on 11 March 2011 - 06:36 PM, said:

Anyone notice that Auri is contained within Kvothe's mother's Ruh name LAURIan? I think Kvothe heard the "Sunny" etymology for Auri from some childhood explanation of his mother's name, Laurian.

WRT a wise man fearing a moonless night... Anyone pick up that Auri never comes out when the moon is shining? If there are clouds obscuring it she goes out on the rooftops, but when the moon comes out she hides. Felurian says a wise man views a moonless night with fear because you can get pulled into the dark moon's wake and be stuck in Fae. I can't quite figure out the connection...

No, I didn't put those together.  Thanks.  I believe you are right.  I think Kvothe naming Auri though is more to do with his being a namer.  As someone else mentioned, Elodin learning of this is the catalyst for him to actually take Kvothe in and teach him.  That raises the question of what does Elodin know of Auri?  He comes off as mostly shocked when he finds them together.  When he arrives, Auri does all the talking and directs the scene while Kvothe and Elodin play passenger. She certainly is more than meets the eye and Auri refuses to freely give information about herself.

Their ceremony of gift giving is also more than meets the eye.  Kvothe seems to not think of it at all, but its something more to Auri.  If you notice, whichever one ask what the other brought them first, is the one that has to give their gift(s) first lol.  I also think that Auri's gifts to him are more than just her blowing hot air.  What do the key to the moon, the candle and the coin have to with each other though?  Will Auri's promise that he will always be safe in the Underthing come into play in the future?  When Kvothe asked Auri about showing him the Underthing, her response to that was hilarious.  She also shows knowledge of naming in her ability to name places in the Underthing, which Kvothe comes to understand yet not fully realize.

Do people think Auri is a forgotten princess from the creation war 5k years ago?  How could she live that long if she's human as she appears to be?  Is it just Kvothe not being able to recognize that she's really a Fae and such maybe (doesn't Bast appear human to untrained eyes right?)?  The hint to this of course would be Kvothe thinking of her truly as a little moon fae.  That's another thing that's always mentioned in an Auri scene, is the moon.  Perhaps I'm wrong, but off the top of my head, all of Auri's scenes happen when the moon is full, which should also be indicative of her associations to the Fae in some manner or another I would think.

Edit - Hmm, I thought Auri comes out when the moons full.  I'll have to check again when I read Auri scenes. *sigh*

Edited by Sign, 12 March 2011 - 08:33 PM.

[alekhia]

grinachu, on 11 March 2011 - 07:12 AM, said:

Teaspoon this is the most brilliant post I have read on this thread. Everything you have said rings true, in particular the description of Lanre reminds me of a quasi-buddhist like attitude; life is suffering, therefore let us end it all.

I had the same intuition about the house in the story being Fae.

However Iax was not the first shaper, I think, but merely the most powerful. I also somewhat disagree with you about the old man being irrelevant in the story. The old man was a Namer and familiar with their lore who was searching the name of the wind. In fact I suspect he was called an E'lir or listener. His presence in the story suggests that the Namers (or a particular Namer) tried to dissuade Iax from capturing the moon but did not succeed in doing so. This namer also had skills Iax did not have, being able to open the knot on the tinker's pack where Iax failed.

TeaSpoon, Grinachu,

I totally agree with you that the Jax story describes Iax's creation of the fae, and I think I agree with Grinachu that the old man in front of the cave represents someone who tried to advise Iax against stealing the moon.

But i think that the man who tried to advise Iax was not Aleph, but Teccam, and here's why:

1) Teccam has been mentioned far too often for him to not be important

2) In NotW, there is an early description of the university which states:

"The University itself consisted of about fifteen buildings that bore little resemblance to each other. Mews had a circular central hub with eight wings radiating in each direction so it looked like a compass rose. Hollows was simple and square, with stained glass windows showing Teccam in a classic pose: standing barefoot in the mouth of his cave, speaking to a group of students."

I think both the reference to the cave, and the fact that he is barefoot strongly suggest that he may be the man in Hespe's story of Jax.

What do you guys think?

Edited by alekhia, 12 March 2011 - 08:38 PM.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

alekhia, on 12 March 2011 - 08:38 PM, said:

TeaSpoon, Grinachu,

I totally agree with you that the Jax story describes Iax's creation of the fae, and I think I agree with Grinachu that the old man in front of the cave represents someone who tried to advise Iax against stealing the moon.

But i think that the man who tried to advise Iax was not Aleph, but Teccam, and here's why:

1) Teccam has been mentioned far too often for him to not be important

2) In NotW, there is an early description of the university which states:

"The University itself consisted of about fifteen buildings that bore little resemblance to each other. Mews had a circular central hub with eight wings radiating in each direction so it looked like a compass rose. Hollows was simple and square, with stained glass windows showing Teccam in a classic pose: standing barefoot in the mouth of his cave, speaking to a group of students."

I think both the reference to the cave, and the fact that he is barefoot strongly suggest that he may be the man in Hespe's story of Jax.

What do you guys think?

Reasonable.

[Curethan]

Need a new thread someone.

[Grant]

A couple of crackpot theories to add to the mix

1) The relationship with Bast is interesting, because Bast looks up to Kvothe so much and is desparate to help him.  What binds Bast to Kvothe and what are the rules about the fae living in the human world?  My crackpot theory is that Bast may only be half-fae allowing him to have the best of both worlds.  That means that Felurian is mother dearest, and "reshi" means "Daddy" in fae.  Kvothe is described as nowhere near 30, and only a few years older than Bast, but if he grew up in the fae he may have been born about seven years ago.

Which leads to a couple of questions.  What of the promise that Kvothe would return to Felurian?  If Kvothe is roughly 25, and there were a disaster when he was 18, there should be another disaster right about now.

2) Kvothe apparently did not recognize his aunt as such, but perhaps after being revealed as Edema Ruh, hi aunt put the pieces together and recognized K as her nephew.  Perhaps, there was the reason that she sent him a ring that was not for wearing.

Random question:  If Auri is the princess to be rescued from a barrow king, does she have a sister?  I thought he rescued princesses (plural).
Random observation:  Early on, Bast lunges at Chronicler and K grabs him as if his "hand were a shackle.  Bast struggled furiosly to free himself, but Kvothe stood behind the bar, arm outstretched, motionless as steel or stone." PR error, or does he still have one good hand?