409 replies to this topic

[Slick Mongoose]

Lord of Starfall, on 03 March 2011 - 10:14 PM, said:

A somewhat wild theory I had was that Denna's patron might be Haliax or an agent of his. He certainly does seem to be trying to establish Lanre as a hero, and he had her show up in Trebon just in time for the Chandrian strike.

That's not wild, it seems almost certain.

[Slick Mongoose]

TeaSpoon, on 04 March 2011 - 12:48 AM, said:

"I swear I won’t attempt to uncover your patron," I said bitterly. "I swear it on my name and my power. I swear it by my good left hand. I swear it by the ever-moving moon." - chapter seventy-three, Blood and Ink

Now that is a hell of a spot.

Edit:

TeaSpoon, on 04 March 2011 - 12:48 AM, said:

Now I'm not saying that the moon struck him down the moment he tried to uncover Denna's patron, but the search might have led him down a road to eventually led to disaster. The question is why he would do such a thing. It could be as simple as worry for Denna safety and well-being. Maybe it was jealousy. Or maybe he suspected the patron of being a chandrian.

That's not a question, did you see what the Cthaeh told Kvothe? The next time Denna says that "Master Ash" (If he's Cinder that's a fascinating choice of name) is in town, and has bruises on her, Kvothe will hunt him down.

Edited by Slick Mongoose, 04 March 2011 - 04:40 AM.

[Gaston de Foix]

Slick Mongoose, on 04 March 2011 - 04:07 AM, said:

Now that is a hell of a spot.

Edit:



That's not a question, did you see what the Cthaeh told Kvothe? The next time Denna says that "Master Ash" (If he's Cinder that's a fascinating choice of name) is in town, and has bruises on her, Kvothe will hunt him down.

Guys, Master Ash is Bredon. here's the proof. Bredon tells Kvothe he has recently taken up dancing and Denna independently confirms it. Case closed.

I agree it is highly likely that there is a conspiracy at Maer Alveron's court, and while Kvothe has disrupted it, he has not uncovered it completely. Bredon's performance of pagan rituals at his estates in the north sounds highly suspicious and Kvothe had inadvertently given him those accounts of what transpires at his estates. Bredon is being built up as a super baddy, complete with mastery of chess like board game.

[polishgenius]

Brilliant spot, TeaSpoon. That theory looks like a really sound one.

I'm definitely on board with Meluan being Kvothe's aunt, too, that was a thought of mine even before the thing about her sister running off came out.

I'm also fairly certain the thing about two trilogies must be true, even though I can't remember where I read it- there's too much setting up of stuff in the present for it to be resolved in the three days of telling. I suspect the Cthaeh will be a major point in that, even if only a background one.


For me the book was probably as good as NotW but I'm not sure it's better. It's a lot more ambitious- it reminded me of Wolfe's Book of the New Sun in the increased focus on Kvother's vagaries as a narrator, the episodic, travelling nature and the greater exploration of story, how it changes, and how it affects the world- but it doesn't have the elegance of structure. Like people have said, the Felurian sequence seemed out of place and the Adem sequence was too long. The latter also reminded me a bit of the Long Price Quartet because of the use of formalised body language over natural, and for all Rofthuss' brilliance with language I thought Abraham did it better.
And none of the new characters, except maybe Temi, felt as engaging as the old ones, though those old ones did deliver good value. I'm one of the ones who actually likes Denna... I suspect this will deliver more on rereads though and certainly opens the first up for more clue-hunting as well, which is nice.


And the Felurian sequence did contain the Cthaeh, which was ace.

Devi became a much more interesting character too. I do wonder if Kvothe being expelled has something to do with her (the obvious suspect is Ambrose but there's no reason to assume that really).

Did anyone think there might be something of significance in one of the girls Kvothe saved reminding him repeatedly of a young Denna?

Also, the stone doors on the Lackless estate- they the ones the man who stole the moon is locked behind? Felurian mentions doors of stone. It might lend some weight to the idea that the heart of the Moon is in the lockless box, too.

Edited by polishgenius, 04 March 2011 - 09:46 AM.

[kuenjato]

polishgenius, on 04 March 2011 - 08:41 AM, said:

Brilliant spot, TeaSpoon. That theory looks like a really sound one.


For me the book was probably as good as NotW but I'm not sure it's better. It's a lot more ambitious- it reminded me of Wolfe's Book of the New Sun in the increased focus on Kvother's vagaries as a narrator, the episodic, travelling nature and the greater exploration of story, how it changes, and how it affects the world- but it doesn't have the elegance of structure. Like people have said, the Felurian sequence seemed out of place and the Adem sequence was too long. The latter also reminded me a bit of the Long Price Quartet because of the use of formalised body language over natural, and for all Rofthuss' brilliance with language I thought Abraham did it better.

The only problem with this comparison is that WMF is probably the same size as the entire BotNS, with maybe a bit of Urth thrown in as well.

I've been reading reactions on another thread and ho boy they aren't liking the faery sex scenes very much. I can't comment directly as I'm still waiting for the library copy but it feels like WMF has all the good and bad of the first book, just much more of both.

[Slick Mongoose]

polishgenius, on 04 March 2011 - 08:41 AM, said:

Devi became a much more interesting character too. I do wonder if Kvothe being expelled has something to do with her (the obvious suspect is Ambrose but there's no reason to assume that really).

He's already been expelled once. That might not be what he meant, but it's not 100% that he'll get expelled again.

kuenjato, on 04 March 2011 - 12:35 PM, said:

The only problem with this comparison is that WMF is probably the same size as the entire BotNS, with maybe a bit of Urth thrown in as well.

Why is that a problem? Does length = bad? For me, if it's good, I want more of it.

Edited by Slick Mongoose, 04 March 2011 - 12:39 PM.

[Memory Lane]

I liked the faery sex scenes. They were very vivid, and much better than the "You are aroused, let me pleasure you so that we can get back to work" bits from his Adem training.

[Slick Mongoose]

More Faerie sex!  

Edit: Of course, Bredon could be both Master Ash and a Chandrian. Were there any signs when he was around? Or maybe just an agent/friend of the Chandrian.

Edited by Slick Mongoose, 04 March 2011 - 12:49 PM.

[polishgenius]

Slick Mongoose, on 04 March 2011 - 12:38 PM, said:

He's already been expelled once. That might not be what he meant, but it's not 100% that he'll get expelled again.

Expelled for me implies thrown out for good. He just took a leave of absence, it's not even as if he was really forced.

[Foreverlad]

Master Ash is definitely Bredon.  Aside from the dancing, Bredon's final appearance on Alveron's estate included some mocking compliments to the guards outside of Kvothe's room.  Rothfuss made a point to show Bredon tapping one of the guards on the chest with his cane as he did so.  I also suspect he's the man Kvothe eventually kills (where the paving stones could not be fixed or replaced).  Guy totally fools Kvothe into trusting him.  There's just no other real purpose to his existence within the story otherwise.

As for Kvothe's failing abilities, I wouldn't be so quick to pin it on swearing to Denna.  In a way, Kvothe does not have a name at that point in the story.  Kvothe is a calling name, as per Elodin.  His secret, real name had yet to be bestowed upon him.  Having just completed a reread of tNotW a few days ago, I realized for the first time that Kvothe is likely truly dying.  During one of the early chapters (or one of the interludes) the narrator mentions all of Kvothes scars as the silver barely-there lines, with the exception of a single one that...can't remember for sure... didn't heal? or wasn't the same as the rest.  Regardless, the narrator pointed it out and it's either leeching his life away or has totally devastated his belief in himself.   Additionally, twice each book the narrator repeats It was the patient, cut-flower sound of a man who is waiting to die.  With Bast's obsession with Cthaeh, and the numerous mentions of the flower and the king, I'm led to believe that whatever is or isn't killing Kvothe is directly (if not at least metaphorically)  related to leaving the Cthaeh with knowledge.  Cut-flower is just too specific a description to not be meaningful.  

I'm still curious to see why Kvothe was allowed to leave Cthaeh and live in the first place.  Seems he's got a destiny to fulfill, whether it's killing the Chandrian in the second trilogy, or something more.  Either way, he didn't sneak in or out, he was obviously to pass.  That also reminds me, Bast's drama re: Cthaeh annoyed the shit out of me.  Cthaeh can only tell the truth but it's the hard truths, the sad, hurting type.  Big Fucking Deal.  Sad truths do not negate happy times or positive experiences, so what's the commotion about?  Were there a Heahtc that could not lie and only tell you happy truths, you wouldn't belive in the sudden absence of bad things.  Unnecessary drama, all that, though likely telling.

The current king is almost certainly Ambrose.  The idea of him already being dead is a misdirect.  When Kote tries revealing the truth to the apprentice, you can see the utter distaste on Kote's face at the idea of taking the King's coin.  Later in the book, Simmon (I think) mentions the small changes in the Jakis line of succession with the death of some cousins.  I'm assuming more heirs will die in the intervening year(s).

Regarding Kvothe's mom, I think she might be a Lackless.  Besides the hints already explained upthread, she was usually the one giving Kvothe lessons in etiquette.

Thousand minor lines and hints I can't recall off the top of my head, but I'll add more and argue points as things come back to me.

[Slick Mongoose]

Maurice Moss, on 04 March 2011 - 12:54 PM, said:

I'm still curious to see why Kvothe was allowed to leave Cthaeh and live in the first place.  Seems he's got a destiny to fulfill, whether it's killing the Chandrian in the second trilogy, or something more.  Either way, he didn't sneak in or out, he was obviously to pass.  That also reminds me, Bast's drama re: Cthaeh annoyed the shit out of me.  Cthaeh can only tell the truth but it's the hard truths, the sad, hurting type.  Big Fucking Deal.  Sad truths do not negate happy times or positive experiences, so what's the commotion about?  Were there a Heahtc that could not lie and only tell you happy truths, you wouldn't belive in the sudden absence of bad things.  Unnecessary drama, all that, though likely telling.

I think you might have missed the point slightly. The Cthaeh sees all possible futures. When someone turns up in front of them, they sort through those futures, and all the possible things they could say to that person. Then they say whatever will lead to the worst possible future. They don't always say nasty things necessarily. But always horrifically destructive things.

Quote

The current king is almost certainly Ambrose.  The idea of him already being dead is a misdirect.  When Kote tries revealing the truth to the apprentice, you can see the utter distaste on Kote's face at the idea of taking the King's coin.  Later in the book, Simmon (I think) mentions the small changes in the Jakis line of succession with the death of some cousins.  I'm assuming more heirs will die in the intervening year(s).

Ohh, do we think Ambrose is bumping them off? He certainly knows enough to do so without being noticed.

Edited by Slick Mongoose, 04 March 2011 - 01:14 PM.

[ljkeane]

Slick Mongoose, on 04 March 2011 - 12:38 PM, said:

Why is that a problem? Does length = bad? For me, if it's good, I want more of it.

Agreed. I like long books, if I'm going to buy a hardback I like it to last me more than a couple of hours.

I enjoyed the book lot although I agree it's pretty similar to the first book. Oh and I definitely think Meluan is Kvothe's aunt.

Edited by ljkeane, 04 March 2011 - 01:03 PM.

[Foreverlad]

Slick Mongoose, on 04 March 2011 - 01:00 PM, said:

I think you might have missed the point slightly. The Cthaeh seems all possible futures. When someone turns up in front of them, they sort through those futures, and all the possible things they could say to that person. Then they say whatever will lead to the worst possible future. They don't always say nasty things necessarily. But always horrifically destructive things.

I'll have to reread the Cthaeh scene, along with the latter mentions, but I'm still dealing with some sort of disconnect.  I'll comment on it again later after I reread the pertinent sections.

[kuenjato]

Slick Mongoose, on 04 March 2011 - 12:38 PM, said:

He's already been expelled once. That might not be what he meant, but it's not 100% that he'll get expelled again.



Why is that a problem? Does length = bad? For me, if it's good, I want more of it.

I would say Wolfe packs 100x the amount of depth and potential in the same amount of pages, that's all.

[AverageGuy]

Nice catch, TeaSpoon.  Makes sense.  And even if it's not because of his oath to Denna, taking away the dexterity of his left hand and his ability to play the lute, which he used to define himself when talking to his Adem trainer, could mess with his name.

grinachu, on 04 March 2011 - 08:34 AM, said:

Guys, Master Ash is Bredon.

Agreed.

polishgenius, on 04 March 2011 - 08:41 AM, said:

Also, the stone doors on the Lackless estate- they the ones the man who stole the moon is locked behind? Felurian mentions doors of stone. It might lend some weight to the idea that the heart of the Moon is in the lockless box, too.

I hadn't thought of purring them together.  The stone door of the Lackless estate made me think of the four-plate door in the Archives, but when Felurian mentioned doors of stone, I was thinking of the standing stone portals.  Hm.  I'd been wondering if the lockless box contained keys to the Lockless door, because the name of the moon seemed too obvious to me.  Now I'm wondering again.

Maurice Moss, on 04 March 2011 - 12:54 PM, said:

As for Kvothe's failing abilities, I wouldn't be so quick to pin it on swearing to Denna. In a way, Kvothe does not have a name at that point in the story. Kvothe is a calling name, as per Elodin. His secret, real name had yet to be bestowed upon him.

I believe Kvothe already had a name at that point besides his calling name, that everything has such a name.  The secret names of the Adem may have some relation Naming, but I got the impression that Names are innate rather than bestowed.

Speaking of which-- "The broken tree."  Anyone else think that means he's going to free the Cthaeh from the tree?

Quote

The current king is almost certainly Ambrose.  The idea of him already being dead is a misdirect.  When Kote tries revealing the truth to the apprentice, you can see the utter distaste on Kote's face at the idea of taking the King's coin.  Later in the book, Simmon (I think) mentions the small changes in the Jakis line of succession with the death of some cousins.  I'm assuming more heirs will die in the intervening year(s)

Yeah, the cousins' deaths took him from 15th to 12th.  Then the Crown Prince died, making him 11th (and his father 10th).  Ten people still have to die, and Kvothe kills the tenth.  Just makes sense.

kuenjato, on 04 March 2011 - 01:43 PM, said:

I would say Wolfe packs 100x the amount of depth and potential in the same amount of pages, that's all.

Sure.  And the fact that polishgenius said it was less elegant than Wolfe seemed to cover that.  I don't really see the problem with the comparison, myself.

Edited by AverageGuy, 04 March 2011 - 04:10 PM.

[russjass]

I think this is a wonderful story. Pure escapism. For the last four days I have been living a different life in a different world (which caused a few problems at work, which complimented the problems due to lack of sleep from reading).

Meluan as Kvothes aunt? I totally buy it, but it will probably be one of those things that are never explicitly stated.

Master Ash? I was convinced it was Haliax since his apearance in the tNotW, and all through this book. But...... Comments on here about Bredon sway me. In either case the Dennas paton is clearly working on behalf of the Chandrian to re-create the public image of Lanre and remove all knowledge of the Chandrian.

Kvothe and Kote: I think Kvothe has changed his true name, Kote is a reflection of this. It is said in the prologue to the first book that the name Kote was chosen with great care. Elodins hooror at the prospect of someone changing there true name shows how it can be done.

When Kvothe Named Felurian the first time he "knew her to the tips of her toes", the second time, more powerful time, he "knew her to the marrow of her bones". Kvothe says repeatedly he is Edema Ruh to the marrow of his bones, everything he can do and everything he is, he does and is "to the marrow of his bones", rooted in his true name. Once he has changed that in an effort to "lose himself" as he says to the blacksmiths apprentice, he is a different person. The new person does not have an alar like a ramiston steel bar, is not edema ruh to his marrow, is not a musician, and is not as deeply rooted in the Lethani (sp). Hence is a poor sympathist, avoids music and is a poor fighter.

However I think Kvothe remains within Kote. When Kvothe is leaving Tanbean he tells the inkeeper he would like to own an inn someday, and after he gets a thumping he reacts to the question "who do you think you are" with bitter laughter, and later comments that he "thought he was someone else"

[Foreverlad]

Searching other forums, there's one or two interesting observations people have made:

-Denna's patron could be Cinder, as Kvothe is the one who gave him the nickname Master Ash (who of course, may also be Bredon).  The game of Tac (sp?) is an extremely old game, as even the fae know it.  "A Beautiful Game" isn't a fast and direct win, so spreading discontent and raising chaos might be right up his (or the Chandrian's) alley.  More, Denna's patron was at the farm the Chandrian attacked in book 1, then mysteriously disappeared

-Kote's thrice locked chest might contain his name.  Think of it like Superman dropping his powers in Superman II, but in this instance, Superman can't get back into the Fortress of Solitude to fix the problem.

-Chronicler, aka Devon Lochess, is a relative of the Lacklesses.  (As the Lackless spread across the Four Corners, changing their names slightly).

-Kvothe getting his ass kicked was, to some degree, an act on his part to further cement the character he's created for himself.  From the epilogue: There, behind the tightly shuttered windows, he lifted his hands like a dancer, shifted his weight, and slowly took one single perfect step.


Not really sure about that last point.  Though the exercise indicates he's still talented, all the other evidence points to failure.  He wouldn't have broken down laughing near the end of the fight, wouldn't be waiting to die, and wouldn't be failing in opening that thrice locked chest.

[Slick Mongoose]

Maurice Moss, on 04 March 2011 - 04:27 PM, said:

-Denna's patron could be Cinder, as Kvothe is the one who gave him the nickname Master Ash (who of course, may also be Bredon).  The game of Tac (sp?) is an extremely old game, as even the fae know it.  "A Beautiful Game" isn't a fast and direct win, so spreading discontent and raising chaos might be right up his (or the Chandrian's) alley.  More, Denna's patron was at the farm the Chandrian attacked in book 1, then mysteriously disappeared

I've thought that Cinder might = Master Ash too, and certainly Bredon = Master Ash has some great evidence behind it. But if Cinder = Bredon, wouldn't Kvothe remember him from the scene at the start of the first book?

Quote

-Chronicler, aka Devon Lochess, is a relative of the Lacklesses.  (As the Lackless spread across the Four Corners, changing their names slightly).

Another interesting spot, although I guess they'd be very distant relatives so not so important?

[Foreverlad]

Slick Mongoose, on 04 March 2011 - 04:36 PM, said:

I've thought that Cinder might = Master Ash too, and certainly Bredon = Master Ash has some great evidence behind it. But if Cinder = Bredon, wouldn't Kvothe remember him from the scene at the start of the first book?



Another interesting spot, although I guess they'd be very distant relatives so not so important?

Kvothe (to the best of our knowledge) Named 3, or 4 people in tNotW:  Auri, Nell (girl from the farm area), and his horse.  The significance of his naming Denna's patron (without any proof of accuracy) had been lost on me before, so this is only the first time I truly appreciate the notion.  As we don't know all the rules surrounding the Chandrian, it's difficult to know what they can or can't do to cover themselves up.  Just as the Fae can maintain illusions to protect their identities, most of the Chandrian should have themselves a suit and glasses to hide their identities while they're off as the Daily Planet, their leader excluded.

Chronicler's relation would be distant and unimportant in the grand scheme, but an interesting observation, regardless.

[AverageGuy]

russjass, on 04 March 2011 - 02:44 PM, said:

Kvothe and Kote: I think Kvothe has changed his true name, Kote is a reflection of this.

What does Kote mean again?  I remember from NotW that it's a word from some other language, but I don't remember.

Oh, how many rings are accounted for?  When we first saw the rhyme, I thought it was going to represent the names he'd learn, and Fela's stone ring seemed to bear that up.  But then we saw the story that he has an amber ring which can control demons, the wood from Meluan, the bone from the Maer's valet.  Air is a name he has or will have.  Iron may be one of the rings his name's on (I don't think he got rid of those three rings, did he?).  I doubt we've seen the nameless ring yet, but stone?  Blood (related to the Amyr, maybe)?  Flawed ice?  Fire?  Any hints about them I missed?