422 replies to this topic

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Last thread outgrew its Name... please continue.

A question:  Felurian is basically a badass with magic, though her control is totally instinctual.  Bast seems fully competent to handle himself, though I don't think he uses any actual magic.  If the Fae and its denizens are so magical, then why does Bast need to be apprenticed to a "manling?"

ETA:  Link to last thread.

Edited by WrathOfMe, 14 March 2011 - 02:24 PM.

[Zizoz]

Maybe he's planning to spend a while in the "normal" world and things work differently from Fae?

Also, kind of off-topic but what exactly is the reason for making a new thread?

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Threads are closed by moderators after 400 posts, which we exceeded in the last thread.

[Zizoz]

What I meant is, why do the moderators close the threads at 400 posts? I'm sure they have a good reason, but at the moment I can't think of it.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

I imagine because it keeps things accessible to members.  We've had something like 15 or 20 Bakker threads, for example (including all of them) and almost 50 Goodkind threads.  I don't think anyone wants to try to read 400 pages of replies, or to refer to posts that were made five years ago on page 4 when the discussion is on page 357.

[Gaston de Foix]

WrathOfMe, on 13 March 2011 - 02:41 AM, said:

I imagine because it keeps things accessible to members.  We've had something like 15 or 20 Bakker threads, for example (including all of them) and almost 50 Goodkind threads.  I don't think anyone wants to try to read 400 pages of replies, or to refer to posts that were made five years ago on page 4 when the discussion is on page 357.

There's a bunch of stuff from the old thread I want to discuss further and at length, especially about Teccam (good catch!) but I'm in a hurry so I'll just share two things I found, one of which is a response to a discussion about copper we had in the old thread.

1. Taborlin the Great had a sword made of copper, Skyaldrin. In one of the stories shared by Marten in WMF, Taborlin the Great had a particular enemy, a sorceror king. His name is Stercus or Cyphus. While the spelling is different in the story and the rhyme I am reasonably certain it's the same person.

Anyway, he's one of the Chandrian in the names provided in the Ademic rhyme and he is the one in thrall of iron. I assume this means that iron rusts when he is around (which is certainly a feature of the Chandrian) but it may mean he has some special power over iron. Either way this explains the copper sword Taborlin possessed.

2. The Ctaeh says "Laurian was always a trooper". Kvothe knows that his mother was not born a trooper, but doesn't realise that Ctaeth has given him a huge clue that Laurian was a name his mother assumed when she became one of the Ruh. Incidentally much of what the Ctaeth says is couched in conditionals, do other people think that when it says things like, "maybe he did me an ill turn once" in relation to Cinder that statement is necessarily true?

3. Princess Ariel. I think she is the daughter of the King of Vint, and Kvothe will visit the Vintish capital sometime in the next book. Nothing to go on except a hunch, but there you have it.

Edited by grinachu, 13 March 2011 - 04:52 AM.

[Gaston de Foix]

WrathOfMe, on 13 March 2011 - 02:04 AM, said:

Last thread outgrew its Name... please continue.

A question:  Felurian is basically a badass with magic, though her control is totally instinctual.  Bast seems fully competent to handle himself, though I don't think he uses any actual magic.  If the Fae and its denizens are so magical, then why does Bast need to be apprenticed to a "manling?"

Just to answer this question- Bast does use both his kinds of magic, glamourie - the art of making things seem other than what they are, and grammarie, the art of making things other than what they are. He uses his glamourie to disguise his true nature, his hoofs and suchlike. He uses his grammarie in the incident with the mercenaries at the end of the book (although it is not clear what he is using his powers for) and in extending the life of the holly crown he gives to the Chronicler.

To answer your broader question, I think the answer is to learn the sorts of knowledge human excel at, Kvothe is teaching Bast to read a book on solvents for instance, which would help him perform alchemy. It is also never stated or implied that the Fae have any knowledge of sympathy. So those are the sorts of things Kvothe could teach him. Perhaps because Fae magic is so instinctual, they never learn magic in a systematic way or really acquire any sort of knowledge in a systematic way as humans do?

[Gaston de Foix]

thistlepong, on 12 March 2011 - 02:26 AM, said:

I think Auri is the princess he rescues from the sleeping barrow king.

NotW - end of ch7
I have stolen princesses back from sleeping barrow kings.
WMF - ch2 (the attempt to prevent Aaron from enlisting)
"I can tell you stories no one has ever heard before.  Stories no one will ever hear again.  Stories about Felurian, how I learned to fight from the Adem.  The truth about Princess Ariel."

I didn't make the connection until I heard it on the audio version on the way out of town today.  The pronunciation is definitely Auri-el.

She's developed, mysterious, and charged with meaning.

She catalyzes Elodin's invitation.  She provides ingress to the archives.  Kvothe thinks of her as "my little moon Fae."  She brings regal gravity to their meals: descriptions like "She poured the beer so solemnly you'd think she was having tea with the king," occur repeatedly.

However, a couple things stand out further still.
First, some attention is given to her names for the Underthing: The names she gave them, nonsensical at first, fit like a glove when I finally saw what they described.  He elaborates on why and takes care to make observations of several - observations that suggest a Creation War city.
Second, while their gift giving rituals seem like a funny game, even to Kvothe, they're not.  She's deliberate.

NotW - ch53 (Auri gives him the Key)
She smiled and thrust her hand forward.  Something gleamed in the moonlight.  "A key," she said proudly, pressing it on me.
I took it.  It had a pleasing weight in my hand.  "It's very nice," I said.  "What does it unlock?"
"The moon," she said, her expression grave.

NotW - ch68 (Auri gives him the Coin)
Auri relaxed a bit and came a few steps closer to me.  "I brought you a feather with the spring wind in it, but since you were late..." she looked at me gravely, "you get a coin instead."  She held it out at arm's length, pinched between her thumb and forefinger.  "It will keep you safe at night.  As much as anything can, that is."  It was shaped like an Aturan penance piece, but it gleamed silver in the moonlight.  I'd never seen a coin like it.

WMF - ch11 (Auri gives him the Candle)
I came to my feet and she held out something wrapped in a piece of cloth.  It was thick candle that smelled of lavender.  "What's inside of it?" I asked.
"Happy dreams.  I put them there for you."

A few beats later she says, "I am as lovely as the moon."
(incidentally, she does come out in when the moon is in the sky)

All the focus on her accompanied by the Key, Coin, and Candle from the Taborlin stories, and the similarity of the names (even in Laurien precipitated his choice) suggest she's much more than an urchin in the sewers.

wonderful catch, Thistlepong, that went completely over my head. But if Auri is a Princess, wouldn't someone have searched the whole university for her? It seems difficult to believe a princess would come to the university, become not quite right in the head, and then just be allowed to disappear. There is also her mysterious connection/knowledge of the Amyr and their doings to explain away.

[TeaSpoon]

grinachu, on 13 March 2011 - 04:33 AM, said:

Just to answer this question- Bast does use both his kinds of magic, glamourie - the art of making things seem other than what they are, and grammarie, the art of making things other than what they are. He uses his glamourie to disguise his true nature, his hoofs and suchlike. He uses his grammarie in the incident with the mercenaries at the end of the book (although it is not clear what he is using his powers for) and in extending the life of the holly crown he gives to the Chronicler.

To answer your broader question, I think the answer is to learn the sorts of knowledge human excel at, Kvothe is teaching Bast to read a book on solvents for instance, which would help him perform alchemy. It is also never stated or implied that the Fae have any knowledge of sympathy. So those are the sorts of things Kvothe could teach him. Perhaps because Fae magic is so instinctual, they never learn magic in a systematic way or really acquire any sort of knowledge in a systematic way as humans do?

Grammarie might be the art and science of shaping names. Or maybe just rearranging names to change the characteristics of an object. At least, that's what the word grammar implies.

[unJon]

Just finished.  Haven't yet read thread.  I thought it was superior to the first book in many ways.  There is a great style to these books and a lot of layers.  For example, what a great touch having Felurian and Kvothe speaking in rhymes to each other for long passages without any comment from the characters or the authorial voice on it.  

On the other hand, I thought that parts of it were like a travelogue and the pacing was slow in parts.  I also was expecting that the stakes would be raised in this books, but they really weren't.  New mysteries were introduced (e.g., the Lackless' lockless door, which is obviously what the Ch-fae guy in the tree was talking about, and the Lackless box).  Mysteries I thought would be solved, however, were not (e.g., the sealed door in the archives, the whole University storyline in general . . .).  

Overall I liked it and thought it was an improvement.  Hopefully the third book keeps on this positive trajectory.

Ok, off to read these threads to see what everyone picked up and I missed.     

P.S. Denna Kvothe's mom is the runaway older sister of the Lackless girl that gets married to the Maia (sp?), right?

Edited by unJon, 13 March 2011 - 10:27 AM.

[word]

unJon, on 13 March 2011 - 10:16 AM, said:

P.S. Denna Kvothe's mom is the runaway older sister of the Lackless girl that gets married to the Maia (sp?), right?

Yeah it's pretty much 100% certain. You'll see why when you read through the first spoiler thread, somebody had a great catch about a line from a song Kvothe talked about.

[Frigg]

Quote

He beats her, you know. Her patron. Not all the time, but often. Sometimes in a temper, but mostly it’s a game to him. How far can he go before she cries? How far can he push before she tries to leave and he has to lure her back again?

Can we assume that the bad bad tree is simply lying? And that he's beating her (as he did Kvothe) at that game of Go? I just didn't get the sense of Chandrian from him, despite his nearly white-cat-stroking-worthy description of only wanting to win a game that's beautiful.

(And yes, first post, due to the "we can see you guests are lurking, go register and join in" on the original spoiler thread. Hiya!)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Frigg,

Bast is of the firm conviction the Ctheah can't lie.

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison, 13 March 2011 - 04:52 PM.

[Frigg]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on 13 March 2011 - 04:27 PM, said:

Frigg,

Bast is of the firm conviction the Cthea can't lie.

I mean deliberate use of truth to mislead. "Beating" can mean an aggressive show of force or of victory at a board game.

[Watson-Crick]

I just had a thought: Ambrose writes "Ruh bastard" against Kvothe's name in the register. But didn't Kvothe try and keep his Ruh heritage a secret at the university? When and how did Ambrose find this out?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Watson,

No, Kvothe didn't advertise the fact that he was Ruh but he wasn't shy about telling people when they asked.  When Hemme called him a "Ravel Bastard" Kvothe was quick enough to take offense and defend his people.  He was much more circumspect about his Ruh Heritage with the Maer.

[eta]

I suspect that Kvothe's arrangement with the Bursar may be what brings him down.  If Hemme finds out about his rather sudden rise to wealth he may suspect something is going on.  That sort of kickback would certainly be grounds for expulsion.

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison, 13 March 2011 - 04:51 PM.

[Zordrath]

@Frigg: The Cthaeh clearly talked of bruises and blood in Denna's mouth, however. Assuming it really doesn't lie, it can't be talking about a board game.

Edited by Zordrath, 13 March 2011 - 04:50 PM.

[Frigg]

Zordrath, on 13 March 2011 - 04:49 PM, said:

@Frigg: The Cthaeh clearly talked of bruises and blood in Denna's mouth, however. Assuming it really doesn't lie, it can't be talking about a board game.

Yes indeed. "Two days ago he used his walking stick. That was new. Welts the size of your thumb under her clothes. Bruises down to the bone. She’s trembling on the floor with blood in her mouth" So much for going by memory and trying to find finesses. My mistake.

[unJon]

Ok, have read all the threads.  Some totally amazing points and catches by people here.  Really makes me respect the layering and thought that PR put into these books.  Sad that he doesn't seem to ever put a real climax into the books.    I'm assuming this problem will go away in the third book, which will naturally have a climax.

A couple of random thoughts from things said in the thread.

1) I don't think there's evidence to say that Master Lorren knows who Kvothe's mother is.  I think that Kvothe's father having approached Lorren in the past about knowledge of the Chandrian is a natural explanation for the reaction.  There's no reason to think that the name of the Ruh that ran way with Natilia Lackless made its way in story form all the way to the University, even if the story that she ran away with troupers did.

2) It would be a great twist if Bredon/Ash turned out to be an Amyr.

3) The Ch-fae tree guy seems to have sent Kvothe firmly down the path of opening the Lackless door, which I agree with others is going to turn out to be a very bad thing for the world.

4) SSE, great idea about Shaping = Sympathy, but I agree with others that it is not right.  I haven't seen someone point this out yet, but I think Shaping is the "lost art" that created the things that Kilvin tells Kvothe about:  the old sword, the force-field wall, the everburning lamp, etc.  My hunch says that shaping created the Scrael as well.

5) Do not for one second buy that a scrael is in the Lockless Box.  That doesn't make sense to me.  I'm guessing it has to do with the Lockless Door, but the present day Lackless have lost the info. Likely it will be some sort of ball shaped object(s) to make the song correct.

6) I'm still confused about the Creation War.  So Namers and Shapers are all like "this world isn't big enough for both of us".  And Iax ends up creating Fae for the shapers to live there.  And then he steals the moon (on a part-time basis).  So the Namers are all "oh it's on like Donkey Kong now!"  And they fight.  And the 7 cities of Namers have the upper hand.  But then Lanre gets all mad that Lyra dies.  So he corrupts 6 of 7 people in the 7 cities.  And they become the Chandrian.  And (somehow) the Creation War ends in a stalemate with one Namer city left and the Shapers trapped in Fae with the Greystones.  Is that basically right?  Was Lanre pro-Shaper at the end or anti-everything?  Are the Shapers the big-big bad or just misunderstood?

That's about all I can think to add to this discussion, which has been one of the best discussion threads for a book on this forum ever.  Great catches everyone.

[AverageGuy]

unJon, on 13 March 2011 - 07:25 PM, said:

6) I'm still confused about the Creation War. So Namers and Shapers are all like "this world isn't big enough for both of us". And Iax ends up creating Fae for the shapers to live there. And then he steals the moon (on a part-time basis). So the Namers are all "oh it's on like Donkey Kong now!" And they fight. And the 7 cities of Namers have the upper hand. But then Lanre gets all mad that Lyra dies. So he corrupts 6 of 7 people in the 7 cities. And they become the Chandrian. And (somehow) the Creation War ends in a stalemate with one Namer city left and the Shapers trapped in Fae with the Greystones.

That's my general impression.  I imagine we'll find out more details later.  I don't know if the Shapers are trapped in Fae, though.  The greystones seem to be doors leading to Fae, but the Lackless door sounds like it's an actual, physical door.  And Felurian says that she won't speak of Iax, even if he's trapped behind a door of stone, which seems to imply he's not in Fae.  So maybe the doors of stone lead to prisons that are basically other created worlds?

As for whether the Shapers are the big bad, Iax and possibly his cohorts did try to steal the moon in its entirety from the old world's sky.  I could see that pissing people off.  But before that, I thought that the Shapers and Knowers were just two factions of Namers and that it was mostly a philosophical dispute.  I don't know if Shaping is meant to be bad in itself or if it just had unfortunate consequences with things like the Chandrean.  OTOH, Elodin's reaction to changing a Name, which is what I assume Shaping is, does seem to imply that there are inherent negative consequences to doing so.

Edited by AverageGuy, 13 March 2011 - 08:23 PM.