422 replies to this topic

[Gaston de Foix]

TeaSpoon, on 15 March 2011 - 12:37 PM, said:

How does iron rusting show the dominance of iron over Stercus?

Also, "Usnea lives in nothing but decay" seems to cover the rusting iron.

Fair point. I can't recall off the top of my head, apart from iron did other things fall apart? If Usnea decays everything, then wood should rot.

I haven't really processed the dog biting a man, a woman with some of her clothes off, etc, list in NOTW with the Chandrian names in WMF. Do you want to take a shot? It might make sense to list the Chandrian and try and work what those details mean.  

Alaxel- aka Haliax (The Artist formerly known as Lanre), shadow, never sleeps, has the power of Namers, has a secret purpose,

Stercus- thrall of iron, possible candidate to be bearded man

Cyphus- blue flame, enemy of Taborlin the Great

Ferule- aka Cinder, wears chain mail (possibly a military leader of some sort once?),

Usnea-

Alantea-

Dalcenti- never speaks

[Damon]

E'lire means seer
Re'lar means speaker
El'the means ??


How about "Hearer?"

Then you end up with the three monkeys; see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil

Just having fun.

Patrick Rothfuss has obviously spent a fair amount of time layering this story.  It will be interesting to read how it turns out.

I thought the Felurian part was a little draggy the first time through the book also, so I reread it as a stand alone.  I was shocked how quickly it was over, and how much I had missed the first time through.  I also really enjoyed the "speaking in rhymes" dialogue, it seemed very unforced.

[Zizoz]

I like "hearer", or listener. Like the old man in the story of Jax.

[thistlepong]

Damon, on 15 March 2011 - 12:58 PM, said:

E'lire means seer
Re'lar means speaker
El'the means ??


How about "Hearer?"

Then you end up with the three monkeys; see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil

Just having fun.

I think you're absolutely right, actually.

Hespe's Tale: Jax meets the Odd Old Man. (all scrunched together he says)

“I found this cave when I was out chasing the wind.  I decided to stay because this place is perfect for what I do.  I am a listener.  I listen to things and see what they have to say.  You need to get a long ways from people before you can learn to listen properly”

Allegorically, he represents the old name-knowers from Felurian's version of the story.  He attempts to dissuade Jax and councils him to patience and learning.

Tecam (who looks awfully similar) is on proud display at the university.

Elodin spends a fair amount of time listening to the wind.

El'the means Listener.

[TeaSpoon]

grinachu, on 15 March 2011 - 12:50 PM, said:

Fair point. I can't recall off the top of my head, apart from iron did other things fall apart? If Usnea decays everything, then wood should rot.

I haven't really processed the dog biting a man, a woman with some of her clothes off, etc, list in NOTW with the Chandrian names in WMF. Do you want to take a shot? It might make sense to list the Chandrian and try and work what those details mean.  

Alaxel- aka Haliax (The Artist formerly known as Lanre), shadow, never sleeps, has the power of Namers, has a secret purpose,

Stercus- thrall of iron, possible candidate to be bearded man

Cyphus- blue flame, enemy of Taborlin the Great

Ferule- aka Cinder, wears chain mail (possibly a military leader of some sort once?),

Usnea-

Alantea-

Dalcenti- never speaks

This is what I've got. I'm certain the names fit the description of these four:

Cyphus bears the blue flame.
- Obvious

Ferule chill and dark of eye.
- “Was there one with white hair and black eyes?”
- "In the background there was a bare tree, and he was standing on [water]."
- "There were drifts of snow around him too."
- That seems to describe winter. Maybe he causes winter to appear early.  

Alaxel bears the shadow’s hame.
- "There was a second man, or rather the shape of a man in a great hooded robe. Inside the cowl of the robe was nothing but blackness. Over his head were three moons, a full moon, a half moon, and one that was just a crescent. Next to him were two candles. One was yellow with a bright orange flame. The other candle sat underneath his outstretched hand: it was grey with a black flame, and the space around it was smudged and darkened."
- Shadow is obvious.
- Maybe he only appears when there's a moon. Maybe during moonless nights, he's trapped in Faerie. Or he's afraid to get trapped in Faerie and remains indoors.

Pale Alenta brings the blight
- "a man next to a dead tree"
- Alenta causes plants to die


These three I'm not so certain about.

Usnea lives in nothing but decay.
- “And there was a woman….” She blushed. “With some of her clothes off.”
- The clothes decayed off her body, maybe.

Grey Dalcenti never speaks.
- another man with a dog biting his leg
- Animals don't like him, or he causes animals to die (which fits with theme).
- Though I don't see how not speaking is related to animals.

Stercus is in thrall of iron.
- There was a woman holding a broken sword
- I guess I was wrong. Her power does rust iron.

There seems to be a theme. The chandrians deteriorate the world around them. Stercus rusts metals. Dalcenti kills animals. Alenta kills plants. Udnea deteriorates organic objects. Ferule causes cold. Alaxel causes darkness. Cyphus... I don't know how Cyphus fits. Maybe he makes stuff more easily consumed by fire, making the fire turn blue (blue flame is hotter than orange flame).

When the Chandrians are done with the world, it'll be cold and dark place, with no animals or plants left alive, and nothing made by man (organic or metal) still whole. And whatever is left is burned down to the ground by blue-hot flame.

Edited by TeaSpoon, 15 March 2011 - 01:49 PM.

[Poobah]

thistlepong, on 15 March 2011 - 01:30 PM, said:

I think you're absolutely right, actually.

Hespe's Tale: Jax meets the Odd Old Man. (all scrunched together he says)

“I found this cave when I was out chasing the wind.  I decided to stay because this place is perfect for what I do.  I am a listener.  I listen to things and see what they have to say.  You need to get a long ways from people before you can learn to listen properly”

Allegorically, he represents the old name-knowers from Felurian's version of the story.  He attempts to dissuade Jax and councils him to patience and learning.

Tecam (who looks awfully similar) is on proud display at the university.

Elodin spends a fair amount of time listening to the wind.

El'the means Listener.

It also seems interesting that one can apparently graduate to being a full-fledged Arcanist without achieving the higher ranks. See Kvothe in NotW:

"Bast, let me introduce you to Devan Lochees, also known as Chronicler. By all accounts a great teller, rememberer, and recorder of stories. In addition, unless I have suddenly lost all my wit, an accomplished member of the Arcanum, at least re'lar, and one of perhaps two score people in the world who knows the name of iron."

Although now I think of it it seems more likely that the Chronicler isn't an Arcanist at all. At least not a fully graduated one. I assumed the thing around his neck was his Guilder, but it seems to be just a piece of iron of some sort, and the mercenary who robbed him didn't seem to notice anything strange about it. So maybe he left before fully graduating.

Edit: it also suggests that Kvothe knows HOW MANY people know the name of iron. How does Kvothe know something like this? The names people know are considered rather private, correct?

Edited by Poobah, 15 March 2011 - 01:53 PM.

[TeaSpoon]

Poobah, on 15 March 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:

It also seems interesting that one can apparently graduate to being a full-fledged Arcanist without achieving the higher ranks. See Kvothe in NotW:

"Bast, let me introduce you to Devan Lochees, also known as Chronicler. By all accounts a great teller, rememberer, and recorder of stories. In addition, unless I have suddenly lost all my wit, an accomplished member of the Arcanum, at least re'lar, and one of perhaps two score people in the world who knows the name of iron."

Although now I think of it it seems more likely that the Chronicler isn't an Arcanist at all. At least not a fully graduated one. I assumed the thing around his neck was his Guilder, but it seems to be just a piece of iron of some sort, and the mercenary who robbed him didn't seem to notice anything strange about it. So maybe he left before fully graduating.

Edit: it also suggests that Kvothe knows HOW MANY people know the name of iron. How does Kvothe know something like this? The names people know are considered rather private, correct?

The thing around his neck is an iron ring, (I think) proof of his mastery over iron, like how Fela made a stone ring. And I don't think he's a full Arcanist.

[jaerken]

El'the make all the diagnosis in the Medica.  So Listener does fit.  Only someone who can really listen can make a diagnosis to determine the proper symptoms.  Of course, it implies Listening of all sorts - not just what a person says, but what can be observed non-verbally.

Which really is in essence the lesson Elodin is trying to teach Kvothe with his crazy antics.  The world will give answers if you listen, however, speakers are much more common, and just about everyone can see.

[jaerken]

random thought:  has anyone compared Arliden's first verse of Lanre's song (from NOTW) with Dennas ?  If she really is an "agent of the Chandrian" as people here seem to believe, how awesome would it be if they took his song and made her change the words around?

[TeaSpoon]

thistlepong, on 15 March 2011 - 01:30 PM, said:

I think you're absolutely right, actually.

Hespe's Tale: Jax meets the Odd Old Man. (all scrunched together he says)

“I found this cave when I was out chasing the wind.  I decided to stay because this place is perfect for what I do.  I am a listener.  I listen to things and see what they have to say.  You need to get a long ways from people before you can learn to listen properly”

Allegorically, he represents the old name-knowers from Felurian's version of the story.  He attempts to dissuade Jax and councils him to patience and learning.

Tecam (who looks awfully similar) is on proud display at the university.

Elodin spends a fair amount of time listening to the wind.

El'the means Listener.

The problem I have with this is there's no clear progression. A seer finds names. A speaker speaks names and gains control over it. And then we're back to finding names with listeners. To me it makes more sense that the final step is to sing or shape names, because it shows a student getting better at naming.

But your theory is more likely than mine, if only because you have evidence to back it up.

[jaerken]

About the skin dancer:

I think what he was trying to say to Kvothe was 'are you one of the chandrian?"  we have to wonder why the skin dancer was drawn to him in the first place.  it could go anywhere, so why would it seek Kvothe out?  

remember Chronicler thinks "this was a man who had killed an angel and tricked a demon to get his hearts desire."  given that stories in this book as exaggerations but fundamentally truthful, I think Kvothe accepted some part of the Chandrian's evil-ness or dark side powers.  The newly released Skin Dancer comes to him because it senses it and is looking for instructions since the shapers / chandrian were presumeably the ones who employed all manner of creatures before they were locked behind doors of stone.  maybe he's asking kvothe if he's the one who freed him.  

i think the lack of ability of the skin dancer is not a reflection on their lack of power, but essentially the fact that they've been in a coma (behind the doors, etc) for thousands of years.  they are understandably weakened when they are released in the framing story.

i also think that all people were Fae at one point, but due to Iax's actions they could only really use their power in the Fae.  the power that they give up to be in the mortal world combined with years of breeding explains the current non-magical state of mankind + the lack of magic as it used to be taught (the days Elodin speaks so wistfully about)

edit to add: kvothe seemed much more powerful while he was in the Fae.  naming Felurian and being able to grab starlight, etc.

Edited by jaerken, 15 March 2011 - 02:18 PM.

[thistlepong]

grinachu, on 15 March 2011 - 12:24 PM, said:

Who or what is a Ruach? Any guesses?

Tehlu isn't Amyr. He's an angel. He accepts Aleph's diktat to bring justice to the world.

Just out of curiosity what is the first nagging question you have?

Other than the folks attending whatever ceremony Aleph's holding, I don't think there are even clues.  However, most humans are just folk.  Most Faen are just folk.  Most of the survivors of the Creation War and the betrayal are likely just folk - most of the Ruach did not wish to become involved in great matters.

Skarpi's Tale of the Amyr (the second one that Kvothe misses the beginning of)

Selitos went to Aleph and knelt before him.  "I must refuse, for I cannot forget.  But I will oppose him with these faithful Ruach beside me.  I see their hearts are pure.  We will be called the Amyr in memory of the ruined city.  We will confound Lanre and any who follow him.  Nothing will prevent us from attaining the greater good."

These are the Ruach that stand with him.

• Tehlu - "I hold justice foremost in my heart" (first to stand with Selitos)
  
• Kirel - burned but left living in the ashes of Myr Tariniel
  
• Deah - who face and mouth and heart were hard and cold as stone
  
• Enlas - pacificist vegetarian nice guy
  
• Geisa - fist to know the unasked for touch of man
  
• Lecelte - who laughed easily and often
  
• Imet - who never sand and killed swiftly without tears
  
• Ordal - the youngest, who had never seen a thing die
  
• Andan - whose face was a mask with burning eyes, whose name meant anger

Skarpi is arrested by the Tehlins for heresy for telling the story.


The nagging question is #29: WTF copper?

[alekhia]

thistlepong, on 15 March 2011 - 02:16 PM, said:

Other than the folks attending whatever ceremony Aleph's holding, I don't think there are even clues.  However, most humans are just folk.  Most Faen are just folk.  Most of the survivors of the Creation War and the betrayal are likely just folk - most of the Ruach did not wish to become involved in great matters.

Skarpi's Tale of the Amyr (the second one that Kvothe misses the beginning of)

Selitos went to Aleph and knelt before him.  "I must refuse, for I cannot forget.  But I will oppose him with these faithful Ruach beside me.  I see their hearts are pure.  We will be called the Amyr in memory of the ruined city.  We will confound Lanre and any who follow him.  Nothing will prevent us from attaining the greater good."

These are the Ruach that stand with him.

• Tehlu - "I hold justice foremost in my heart" (first to stand with Selitos)
  
• Kirel - burned but left living in the ashes of Myr Tariniel
  
• Deah - who face and mouth and heart were hard and cold as stone
  
• Enlas - pacificist vegetarian nice guy
  
• Geisa - fist to know the unasked for touch of man
  
• Lecelte - who laughed easily and often
  
• Imet - who never sand and killed swiftly without tears
  
• Ordal - the youngest, who had never seen a thing die
  
• Andan - whose face was a mask with burning eyes, whose name meant anger

Skarpi is arrested by the Tehlins for heresy for telling the story.


The nagging question is #29: WTF copper?

Actually, i think the Amyr and the angels are two different groups.

"But Tehlu stood forward saying, 'I hold justice foremost in my heart. I will leave this world behind that I might better serve it, serving you.' He knelt before Aleph, his head bowed, his hands open at his sides."

So, essentially, i think Selitos said "i refuse you, Aleph," and Tehlu says, "I serve you, Aleph"

So is Aleph the real god?  Or just another really powerful namer/shaper?

[thistlepong]

TeaSpoon, I believe the progression from a non-ancient standpoint makes sense.  According to Felurian they started out simply knowing the names of all things and there was a philosophical schism when the shapers sought to change a thing.
At the University, an E'lir understands the principles of sympathy: things are interrelated.  A Re'lar has shown the first signs of understanding the names of things by speaking one, usually amid taut emotion.  An El'the understands the world around her and demonstrates the patience to listen to it.
It seems possible that Naming, at the University, is simply a subject, and not a goal.  For example, Fela is not raised to El’the for making her ring.  Similarly, Uresh enters Introduction to Not Being a Stupid Jackass as an El’the.

[TeaSpoon]

I have a theory (or possible explanation) about listening. Let's use Elodin's example of love, slightly modified. How do you find love?

I came reluctantly to my feet as well and Elodin arranged the two of us so we stood facing each other in profile to the class. "Here we have two lovely young people," he said. "Their eyes meet across the room."

First you have to meet someone. You need to see her.

Elodin pushed my shoulder and I stumbled forward half a step. "He says hello. She says hello. She smiles. He shifts uneasily from foot to foot." I stopped doing just that and there was a faint murmur of laughter from the others.

Then you need to introduce yourself, to speak with her.

But speech that's not enough for love. The hearts of the two parties are speaking different language and translation is flawed. First you need to learn the language of her heart. You do this by listening. When you understand her and she understands you, it becomes possible to speak with subtlety and accuracy.

According to Elodin, this is the proper way to learn names. Compare it to the way Jax does things in the Moon story.

Jax is unable to get close to the moon and asks advice from an old man in a cave. The old man suggests learning to listen to the moon, so that Jax might know whether the moon loves him in return. Jax refuses because learning to listen takes too long. He eventually decides to make the moon come to him.

This story demonstrates the fundamental difference between shapers and namers. Jax sees the moon, chases after it, and then speaks to her. And then decides to trap her. This was exactly the wrong thing to do and counter to the advice of the old man. He didn't listen to her because he was too impatient.

That's a theme in the story. Jax didn't listen to the old man either and kept misunderstanding his words. Where he was supposed to listen, to understand her nature and her name, he decided to take what he wanted by force. He shaped her. Where first she was unchanging, now she shifts from full to empty as she moves from sky to sky.

And in the end, both moon and boy were unhappy (presumably).

[john]

Can you bind bits of your own body to other things?  That would be very useful for the khetan.  Bind your opponent's feet to your feet and they stumble backwards while you spring forward.  Or bind their right had to your left hand and just put it behind your back at a crucial moment, creating an opening.

[coron78]

Since Haliax shields the Chandrians from the Sithe, that suggests the Chandrians have, or are still, visiting the Ctaeh. Potentially revealing a way they actively mold current events.

[thistlepong]

alekhia, on 15 March 2011 - 02:41 PM, said:

Actually, i think the Amyr and the angels are two different groups.

"But Tehlu stood forward saying, 'I hold justice foremost in my heart. I will leave this world behind that I might better serve it, serving you.' He knelt before Aleph, his head bowed, his hands open at his sides."

So, essentially, i think Selitos said "i refuse you, Aleph," and Tehlu says, "I serve you, Aleph"

So is Aleph the real god?  Or just another really powerful namer/shaper?

It seems odd to me that he'd be telling the stories of two groups.  It seems odd that he'd court heresy including Tehlu in the story at all if it weren't pivotal.

    

Selitos bowed his head.  “I am sorry, but my heart says to me I must try to stop these things before they are done, not wait and punish later."
     Some of the Ruach murmured agreement with Selitos and went to stand with him, for they remembered Myr Tariniel and were filled with rage and hurt at Lanre’s betrayal.
     Selitos went to Aleph and knelt before him. "I must refuse, for I cannot forget. But I will oppose him with these faithful Ruach beside me. I see their hearts are pure. We will be called the Amyr in memory of the ruined city. We will confound Lanre and any who follow him. Nothing will prevent us from attaining the greater good."
     Most of the Ruach hung back from Selitos, too.  They were afraid, and they did not wish to become involved in great matters.
     But Tehlu stood forward saying, “I hold justice foremost in my heart. I will leave this world behind that I might better serve it, serving you.”  He knelt before Aleph, his head bowed, his hands open at his sides.

Scene: the Ruach before Aleph

Selitos stands forward.  Some of the Ruach move to stand with him.

Selitos stands forward, kneels.  Most of the Ruach hang back.

Tehlu stands forward, kneels.  Eight others come forward.

So we have at least two kneeling, and eight standing or kneeling.  Aleph unlocks cheat codes for them.

It must mean that either all ten were transformed, or that nine were transformed (we know that Andan and Ordal appear in The Book of the Path) and Aleph sort of stepped around Selitos to do his thing with two groups of Ruach, one bent on vengeance and one kind of hoping to get home in time for the news, hanging around in the background.  I can't convince myself the latter is what's being shown.

Aleph was named in Skarpi's "story of a man who lost his eye and gained a better sight."  He was one of four most powerful namers along with Lyra, Iax, and Selitos.

Edited by thistlepong, 15 March 2011 - 03:43 PM.

[word]

TeaSpoon, on 15 March 2011 - 08:46 AM, said:

[EDIT] By the way, is anyone else impressed with Fenton? He's only one rank below Kvothe in Elxa Dal's advanced sympathy class. He made Re'lar about the same time Kvothe did, though I suspect he spent some time as an e'lir. He was invited to Elodin's naming class. I get the feeling that he's like Kvothe, only slightly less brilliant and more conventional.

I actually noticed this last night browsing through the book.  Did you notice that when Kvothe got back (after a year mind you) Fenton was able to defeat Kvothe four times in a row?  I feel like Fenton kinda got a power up in this book, since in TNotW he couldn't beat Kvothe with a far superior link.

[AverageGuy]

Zizoz, on 15 March 2011 - 01:23 PM, said:

I like "hearer", or listener. Like the old man in the story of Jax.

Listener seems good.  If not that, then Knower.