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Wise Man's Fear II (SPOILERS)


WrathOfTinyKittens

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I'm trying to remember. We know they call the sword the poet slayer, and we know Kvothe kills a king. Do we know the poet and the king are the same person?

no we don't. In fact I suspect sympathy or magic was used since the cobblestones are all shattered and no one can mend them. We don't even know whether Kvothe had Caesura at the time of the assassination/duel. I suspect it was his last act before fleeing and becoming Kote but we really have no idea at this point.

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grinachu,

I don't know that we can say with certainty Ambrose isn't much of a poet. Kvothe, and his Dad, don't like poetry to begin with so anything poetry from Kvothe's perspective is going to be seen negatively regardless of it's quality. Also, Ambrose's work may improve with time. You cannot forget that Kvothe isn't an entirely reliable narrator.

Kvothe thinks highly of Sim's poetry. You are right that Kvothe has a distaste for poetry, and an even greater distaste for Ambrose. I guess my real hunch is, the poet in question is someone entirely different. Would killing a poet make your sword a poet-killer? Maybe he massacred a whole bunch of them at the annual Eld Vintic Poetry convention :0)?

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Yeah, I don't think the lack of moon gave rise to demons, which I'm not even sure existed. Encanis is only mentioned by the Tehlin priests and by no one else. Not Skarpi or Felurian or Elodin or Auri or anyone not involved in the church. Not to mention that the weakness to iron suggests Fae. And Encanis wasn't involved in the Creation War.

The story about Tehlu beating Encanis happened, if it happened at all, after the creation war, when Tehlu was already an Angel.

I may have interpreted this incorrectly, but I thought the story of Tehlu and Encanis was the story of the Creation War as seen by the Tehluin church.

There are three stories of the creation war in the two books. The first is Tehlu and Encanis which is probably the most allegorical. Its a good vs evil and angels vs demons story that has very little in common with the other stories. What is common is that there were seven cities, and six were destroyed.

Knowing he was pursued, Encanis came to a great city. The Lord of Demons called forth his power and the city was brought to ruin. He did this hoping Tehlu would delay so he could make his escape, but the Walking God paused only to appoint priests who cared for the people of the ruined town.

For six days Encanis fled, and six great cities he destroyed. But on the seventh day, Tehlu drew near before Encanis could bring his power to bear and the seventh city was saved. That is why seven is a lucky number, and why we celebrate on Caenin

The second story is told from an Amyr perspective making Selitos a hero and Lanre a villain. Through Skarpi's eyes, Haliax and six of his seven Chandrian betrayed Myr Tarinel and six of the other seven cities. This story was heretical to the Tehlin priest who had Tehlu as Lord of all and not just a great angel.

The third story was from Shehyn and in her perspective six people trusted by their cities forgot the Lethani. But a 7th remembered the Lethani and his city was saved.

There are two other stories of Lanre. Arliden had a story that we will likely never know. It probably reflected poorly on the Chandrian. The other is from Denna which is pro-Lanre and known to the four corners but not us.

There is just one story, but it really depends on who is telling it.

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I'd caution you presenting examples as canon.

Oh sure. I labelled my post as my best guess. Nothing more. I mean what's canon is canon and what isn't, isn't. Having said that...

1. Aleph. "In the beginning, as far as I know, the world was spun out of the nameless void by Aleph, who gave everything a name. Or, depending on the version of the tale, found the names all things already possessed." That's NOTW, present day Kvothe, who one might expect to be knowledgeable about these things. Chronicler doesn't disagree or be outraged or anything. Plus half of Skarpi's story supports my hypothesis of Aleph as a powerful, perhaps even Godlike figure. The other half supports your theory of him being a namer.

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2. technology. We've seen the creations of Shapers and many of them are intrinsically linked with technology and scientific marvels. The warding stones, the new element which floats but does not burn, . Maybe I was going too far in saying they invented technology, but clearly they were innovators. Elodin tells us in WMF that sympathy was invented at the university and hence much later.

3. Haliax's motive for destroying the world isn't just his many fuck-ups which he can't forget. He's just obsessed with ending the suffering of the people of the world by destroying it. After all killing all the people in the world won't give him death. (although I did think your finding about the four doors and Haliax was a clever catch).

Which leads me to what I think is obvious. Haliax has undergone some process which not only gives him power he never possessed, but renders him literally unkillable. As he says, death itself is an open gateway to his power. Even Iax, a powerful shaper, can't grant immortality, I don't think. If he had that kind of power, how would he ever be defeated? His soldiers would be invincible.

It speaks of almost god-like power. With the two other villains currently on stage, Iax and the Ctaeth not really fitting the role, there must be an evil yet to be introduced. You don't have to buy my theory about demons or aliens or whatever. I'm not sure I buy it completely. But there is a definite need for an explanation.

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If we posit there are no demons, there is no reason for angels.

Tehlins are the only folk who refer to either; and in those cases they are Tehlu's angels.

Tehlins neither recognize nor mention Aleph, ever.

Kvothe mentions Aleph who either spun the world from nothing and gave everything a name or found the names all things alrewady possessed, depending on the version. And both Skarpi's stories feature Aleph. That's it, though.

Chronicler doesn't contradict him because he already agreed not to.

The Tehlin version and Skarpi's version are incommensurate. Skarpi's story is cut off when it definitively states that Aleph transformed Tehlu into /(whatever)/; not before.

Only in the Tehlin version are there demons, angels, and a god; and Tehlu is the god.

The Chandrian are not demons. The Chandrian are not afraid of angels. Neither exist.

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I'm still confused about the Chandrian and the various stories about them. Or at least puzzled.

Skarpi's second story mentions "Lanre and his Chandrian" (eg Lanre + the seven).

And many posters here have suggested that it is indeed Lanre + 7. On the other hand the way I read the Adem story Lanre is one of the seven, he is certainly one of the seven names that they remembered.

The Adem story mentions ->

"The enemy"

"He poisoned seven others"

(People seem to interpret this as Lanre + 7)

On the other hand it talks about ->

"One remembered the Lethani, and did not betray a city"

"the one and of the six who follow him"

"seven names"

"seven traitors"

Lanre certainly isn't the one who remembered the Lethani, but if he wasn't "the one" (who poisoned seven others) and so "the enemy" and apart from the seven (as people seem to be suggesting that "the enemy" is some yet to be seen big bad, possibly iax) why is he singled out as the leader of the six who he was successful in turning. And, more importantly who was the one who remembered what was right and didn't betray a city? Selitos sees six plumes of smoke from where he stands above the ruins of Myr Tariniel in Skarpi's story, with Lanre beside him. That gives us Lanre betraying Myr Tariniel (singled out in the Adem story as the one city whose name is remembered, apart from the seven cities whose names were not) and six others betraying six other cities, but one city not being destroyed. So I count the Chandrian as Lanre plus the six who betrayed their cities. So who is this last guy? Where is he? Where does he stand?

Finally, I don't know how this relates to the rest of my speculation, but the vase shows eight figures, one of whom is a high ranking Amyr, looking very angry and rebuking the seven other figures. Does this confirm the view of Skarpi's story that the Amyr stand against the Chandrian? The girl said the Amyr was the scariest of all of the eight figures though, why is this?

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I may have interpreted this incorrectly, but I thought the story of Tehlu and Encanis was the story of the Creation War as seen by the Tehluin church.

There are three stories of the creation war in the two books. The first is Tehlu and Encanis which is probably the most allegorical. Its a good vs evil and angels vs demons story that has very little in common with the other stories. What is common is that there were seven cities, and six were destroyed.

The second story is told from an Amyr perspective making Selitos a hero and Lanre a villain. Through Skarpi's eyes, Haliax and six of his seven Chandrian betrayed Myr Tarinel and six of the other seven cities. This story was heretical to the Tehlin priest who had Tehlu as Lord of all and not just a great angel.

The third story was from Shehyn and in her perspective six people trusted by their cities forgot the Lethani. But a 7th remembered the Lethani and his city was saved.

There are two other stories of Lanre. Arliden had a story that we will likely never know. It probably reflected poorly on the Chandrian. The other is from Denna which is pro-Lanre and known to the four corners but not us.

There is just one story, but it really depends on who is telling it.

I totally agree, this has been my impression as well. Skapri also said there is only one story, which might be interpreted in many ways, but is inline with what you say. Besides, this war seems like a power struggle to me, not something black and white. We should also keep in mind that history is written by the victors, and the Chandrian seem like the losers in this case.

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In fact there are four stories: Trapis's, Skarpi's, Felurian's, and Shehyn's.

Felurian's version supports the notion that the conflict between the Old Knowers and the Shapers, both of whom may properly be called Namers, was a philosphical one. She even implies that the Old Knowers went to war against the Shapers when they stole the moon.

Trapis's Tehlin story is pretty much a tale of Tehlu pursuing a "demon" that bears a notable resemblence to Haliax.

In Skarpi's story this is the mission statement of the Amyr.

There is no evidence of the Chandrian killing anyone. Even in Trapis's tale, Encanis is only said to despoil crops, poison wells, and set men against one another.

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Except for Kvothe's parents and troupe. :P

Circumstantial.

Ladies and gentlemen, I may be just a simple commoner, but I beg you to examine the facts of the case.

Cinder sheaths his sword before approaching Kvothe.

Haliax gets annoyed with his little cruelties and chastises him.

They leave, quickly to be sure, but with a studied ease.

My friends, he was a small boy. There was enouth time to kill him in a number of ways before stepping into the shadow of Halaix.

My opponent notes that Haliax says "Send him to the soft and painless blacket of his sleep." I submit that Haliax is painfully aware of the four doors of escape and likely would have chose his words carefully if he intended to invoke the door of death. The prosecution hinges on the assumptions of a tween, an admitted theif, a malfeasant, and a suspected regicide.

In light of the evidence, I beg you to show restraint and find my clients not guilty.

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I'm still confused about the Chandrian and the various stories about them. Or at least puzzled.

Skarpi's second story mentions "Lanre and his Chandrian" (eg Lanre + the seven).

And many posters here have suggested that it is indeed Lanre + 7. On the other hand the way I read the Adem story Lanre is one of the seven, he is certainly one of the seven names that they remembered.

The Adem story mentions ->

"The enemy"

"He poisoned seven others"

(People seem to interpret this as Lanre + 7)

On the other hand it talks about ->

"One remembered the Lethani, and did not betray a city"

"the one and of the six who follow him"

"seven names"

"seven traitors"

Lanre certainly isn't the one who remembered the Lethani, but if he wasn't "the one" (who poisoned seven others) and so "the enemy" and apart from the seven (as people seem to be suggesting that "the enemy" is some yet to be seen big bad, possibly iax) why is he singled out as the leader of the six who he was successful in turning. And, more importantly who was the one who remembered what was right and didn't betray a city? Selitos sees six plumes of smoke from where he stands above the ruins of Myr Tariniel in Skarpi's story, with Lanre beside him. That gives us Lanre betraying Myr Tariniel (singled out in the Adem story as the one city whose name is remembered, apart from the seven cities whose names were not) and six others betraying six other cities, but one city not being destroyed. So I count the Chandrian as Lanre plus the six who betrayed their cities. So who is this last guy? Where is he? Where does he stand?

Finally, I don't know how this relates to the rest of my speculation, but the vase shows eight figures, one of whom is a high ranking Amyr, looking very angry and rebuking the seven other figures. Does this confirm the view of Skarpi's story that the Amyr stand against the Chandrian? The girl said the Amyr was the scariest of all of the eight figures though, why is this?

1. I think the ambiguity is somewhat deliberate. The story deliberately introduces multiple perspectives

2. I think the Ademic version, the one with rhymes is correct. Haliax + six others.

How do we reconcile the conflicting version? Lanre poisoned seven people. Six betrayed their cities. One despite Lanre's attempts, remembered the Lethani and that city endured. Who is the last person, who remembered the Lethani? We haven't been told yet.

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Circumstantial.

Ladies and gentlemen, I may be just a simple commoner, but I beg you to examine the facts of the case.

Cinder sheaths his sword before approaching Kvothe.

Haliax gets annoyed with his little cruelties and chastises him.

They leave, quickly to be sure, but with a studied ease.

My friends, he was a small boy. There was enouth time to kill him in a number of ways before stepping into the shadow of Halaix.

My opponent notes that Haliax says "Send him to the soft and painless blacket of his sleep." I submit that Haliax is painfully aware of the four doors of escape and likely would have chose his words carefully if he intended to invoke the door of death. The prosecution hinges on the assumptions of a tween, an admitted theif, a malfeasant, and a suspected regicide.

In light of the evidence, I beg you to show restraint and find my clients not guilty.

I agree that the story of Kvothe's parents death is full of holes. I will even grant you that the Amyr are actively trying to erase proof of their existence, and Arliden's song would most probably include them as well. The vase at Trebor also depicted an Amyr. Still, the Chandrian were the only ones that we know with certainty that showed up in both instances. Then there is Felurian, which is the only first hand witness of the war, and she seems to be creeped out by the Chandrian. We don't know enough to form a conclusion in any case.

We will be able to form safer conclusions when we know who is helping Jackass to gain the throne and who is behind Bredon. We do have some clues about Bredon's allegiance, Denna's song is sympathetic towards Larne, and Bredon is obviously preparing her for something. Denna is learning the history of the Creation War, magic, and maybe even how to fight (although i doubt the last one, her reaction is too defensive when Kvothe asks her if Ash is beating her). Maybe she also has Lackless blood in her, but i am not sure a female descendant could open the door, so i can't guess the Chandrians intentions yet.

Who is the last person, who remembered the Lethani? We haven't been told yet.

Oh come on now, you are making this too easy, do i even need to repeat the name ? ;)

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Lanre certainly isn't the one who remembered the Lethani, but if he wasn't "the one" (who poisoned seven others) and so "the enemy" and apart from the seven (as people seem to be suggesting that "the enemy" is some yet to be seen big bad, possibly iax) why is he singled out as the leader of the six who he was successful in turning. And, more importantly who was the one who remembered what was right and didn't betray a city? Selitos sees six plumes of smoke from where he stands above the ruins of Myr Tariniel in Skarpi's story, with Lanre beside him. That gives us Lanre betraying Myr Tariniel (singled out in the Adem story as the one city whose name is remembered, apart from the seven cities whose names were not) and six others betraying six other cities, but one city not being destroyed. So I count the Chandrian as Lanre plus the six who betrayed their cities. So who is this last guy? Where is he? Where does he stand?

Finally, I don't know how this relates to the rest of my speculation, but the vase shows eight figures, one of whom is a high ranking Amyr, looking very angry and rebuking the seven other figures. Does this confirm the view of Skarpi's story that the Amyr stand against the Chandrian? The girl said the Amyr was the scariest of all of the eight figures though, why is this?

The Amyr could be a "representative" Amyr, or it could be a specific person. On the face of things it seems to confirm that the Amyr are anti-Chandrian, but I'm not sure how to take that in combination with the Amyr being the worst guy on the pot. He could be the one who didn't betray, but again, I'm not sure how it jives with him being so scary.

I guess I could have to do with intentions--Haliax has terrible intentions and does terrible things, whereas the Amyr do terrible things with the best of intentions, making them terrifying? It seems far too trite, though, which makes me think something else is definitely going on with that dude.

Maybe the "Amyr" on the pot is the one who turned (shaped?) Lanre in the first place? He'd be the shaper Felurian won't name, and thus behind "doors of stone". That would make more literal sense with what the Cthaeh said--that the Maer would lead Kvothe to "the Amyr's door". Maybe there was a specific "Amyr" in mind? On the pot, then, he'd be commanding the Chandrian?

The time line doesn't work, though. He'd have to have turned the seven before he became an Amyr or became associated with them, and then been locked away. But if the Amyr were trying to free him, even if they didn't know what was behind the door, if could explain why they were disbanded, more than "the church finally got tired of them doing what they'd been doing for a thousand years." Aside from the time line, I like it. Then it makes even more sense why the Chandrian are afraid of the Amyr, because whoever is behind the door apparently has the power to shape them. The rest of the Amyr wouldn't necessarily be "bad", though (though they could be). They may only know that something the Chandrian don't like is behind the door, and have the best of intentions in going after it. The best of intentions and bloody hands...sounds familiar. : )

Hmm...anyone remember if Felurian ever speaks the names of any of the other great namers or shapers? Seylitos, in particular?

I'm still having a hard time believing that the worst of them is Iax, though. Felurian didn't seem afraid of Iax, just mad at him.

Also, when did Felurian leave for Fae?

SkiesofAzel: We know from the Cthaeh that Cinder did "terrible things" to Laurian. He never said he killed her, that I can recall. Still, I can't see what else would have happened. The Chandrian were there before they died, did terrible things to them, and left the moment they thought the Sithe or the Amyr or the Singers were on their way. That doesn't leave a lot of leeway.

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Which leads me to what I think is obvious. Haliax has undergone some process which not only gives him power he never possessed, but renders him literally unkillable. As he says, death itself is an open gateway to his power. Even Iax, a powerful shaper, can't grant immortality, I don't think. If he had that kind of power, how would he ever be defeated? His soldiers would be invincible.

It speaks of almost god-like power. With the two other villains currently on stage, Iax and the Ctaeth not really fitting the role, there must be an evil yet to be introduced. You don't have to buy my theory about demons or aliens or whatever. I'm not sure I buy it completely. But there is a definite need for an explanation.

Your theory hinges on knowing the limits of Iax' power and what is or is not possible in this fictional world. And from this incomplete knowledge, you draw the conclusion that there must be another player out there pulling the strings, one yet to be mentioned. A dark lord of some kind. Surely you see why I'm skeptical.

You'll also note that Iax wasn't killed. He was locked up behind doors of stone and people are still unwilling to say his name millennia after he last set foot on either Fae or Earth.

I'm not even sure Iax was the one who helped Lanre.

You're saying that Demons are the real villains, lead by Encanis. Well, I disagree, but I'm willing to admit my ignorance in this matter. We simply don't have enough information to draw solid conclusions.

If we posit there are no demons, there is no reason for angels.

Tehlins are the only folk who refer to either; and in those cases they are Tehlu's angels.

Tehlins neither recognize nor mention Aleph, ever.

Kvothe mentions Aleph who either spun the world from nothing and gave everything a name or found the names all things alrewady possessed, depending on the version. And both Skarpi's stories feature Aleph. That's it, though.

Chronicler doesn't contradict him because he already agreed not to.

The Tehlin version and Skarpi's version are incommensurate. Skarpi's story is cut off when it definitively states that Aleph transformed Tehlu into /(whatever)/; not before.

Only in the Tehlin version are there demons, angels, and a god; and Tehlu is the god.

The Chandrian are not demons. The Chandrian are not afraid of angels. Neither exist.

The Tehlins are the only one who claim that angels exist to fight demons. No one else thinks demons exist. In Skarpi's story, the angels are created to fight general injustice. So yes, angels can exist in the absence of demons.

From Skarpi's description, I think we can safely assume that the beings created by Aleph are angels or angel-like in that they bear a close resemblance to western culture's image of angels. As Skarpi is the best source (save Felurian) of Creation War history, we cannot simply dismiss his story as fictional.

And the Chandrians were afraid of something watching from above. While we cannot know for certain that the watchers (literally referred to as watchers) are angels, they are the closest fit.

I'll agree, though, that there's a distinct possibility Aleph is more than just a simple namer or shaper.

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Does anybody know if there is significance behind the unusual capital letters in Denna's note to Kvothe?

She mentioned in the letter that she had been drinking, so I jut assumed it was due to alcohol, but it might be worth looking at again.

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