422 replies to this topic

[thistlepong]

Not tragic enough.

I'm on board with Ambrose as the Penitent King, but inclined to believe that's just sand in Kvothe's underpants.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

I dunno, he was betrayed, but that implies someone who has his trust.  The only person I can think he'd possibly feel as hurt as he does when betrayed would be Denna. Assuming his betrayal is post-University expulsion, it can't be his university friends.  The betrayer has to be Denna.  

But really, what constitutes a betrayal to Kvothe?  Like what would he consider betrayal? It clearly isn't something so simple as cheating on him, it had to be something more massive.  Marrying Ambrose would certainly shatter him, I think.  


It's possible, Rothfuss is going for the Nimue and Merlin archetype here.  Kvothe is our Merlin, he's going to teach magic to Nimue(Denna).  And like how Merlin got betrayed by Nimue, Denna is going to betray Kvothe magically.  If that's the case, Merlin ended up sealed in a mountain, or something, if I recall.  If that's the case, staying in an inn isn't exactly of equal magnitude.  Naming Kvothe and then making him powerless is certainly possible, I suppose.  But what would give Denna cause to Name Kvothe? I can't think of anything, really.  

So, I'm still of the opinion that Kvothe's Oath is what ruined his powers, but somehow Denna betrayed him as well - they might be two separate events. The Betrayal and the loss of his Power might have occurred at different times.

[Gaston de Foix]

Jurble, on 18 March 2011 - 12:15 AM, said:

I dunno, he was betrayed, but that implies someone who has his trust.  The only person I can think he'd possibly feel as hurt as he does when betrayed would be Denna. Assuming his betrayal is post-University expulsion, it can't be his university friends.  The betrayer has to be Denna.  

But really, what constitutes a betrayal to Kvothe?  Like what would he consider betrayal? It clearly isn't something so simple as cheating on him, it had to be something more massive.  Marrying Ambrose would certainly shatter him, I think.  


It's possible, Rothfuss is going for the Nimue and Merlin archetype here.  Kvothe is our Merlin, he's going to teach magic to Nimue(Denna).  And like how Merlin got betrayed by Nimue, Denna is going to betray Kvothe magically.  If that's the case, Merlin ended up sealed in a mountain, or something, if I recall.  If that's the case, staying in an inn isn't exactly of equal magnitude.  Naming Kvothe and then making him powerless is certainly possible, I suppose.  But what would give Denna cause to Name Kvothe? I can't think of anything, really.  

So, I'm still of the opinion that Kvothe's Oath is what ruined his powers, but somehow Denna betrayed him as well - they might be two separate events. The Betrayal and the loss of his Power might have occurred at different times.

I think the answer to why Denna betrays Kvothe is to be found in not what she did to Kvothe (which is almost impossible to guess) but why. As to why, we are giving tantalising hints. She wants to learn magic. She weeps when a letter and a pear reach her. She was betrayed by a man. She travels from place to place, running away when men try to force their company on her. She accepts being beaten to learn how to weave knots. Bredon has some interest or connection with the Chandrian.

Is it possible her betrayal is unwitting?  We all seem to assume intent, but that's not really necessary.

[SkiesOfAzel]

Jurble, on 18 March 2011 - 12:15 AM, said:

But really, what constitutes a betrayal to Kvothe?  Like what would he consider betrayal? It clearly isn't something so simple as cheating on him, it had to be something more massive.  Marrying Ambrose would certainly shatter him, I think.  

  It would, but probably because he would have something to do with it in that case. Right now, there is Bredon, who is connected with the Chandrian and through them with Ambrose, since they seem to be trying to put him on the throne. On the other side is the Maer, Kvothe and probably the Amyr. Bredon is trying to get Denna to his side, but till now Denna hasn't even mentioned Kvothe to him :

“But you are not part of the bargain,” she said, her voice almost fierce. “You are mine. Mine alone. I don’t intend to share you.”

  Another interesting event that i just remembered : When Kvothe was leading Denna to the hayloft in order for them to cross into the Maer's Gardens, Kvothe said to Denna he didn't intend to seduce her, and she started braiding her hair but then immediately stopped. Instead of attempting magic, she preferred to risk the honest and direct route, talking to him instead (although he didn't get the hint ). Not everything she told him there was rosy though,as according to her she always liked moonless nights, which doesn't bode very well for Kvothe if you take in to account the title of the book.

Jurble, on 18 March 2011 - 12:15 AM, said:

It's possible, Rothfuss is going for the Nimue and Merlin archetype here.  Kvothe is our Merlin, he's going to teach magic to Nimue(Denna).  And like how Merlin got betrayed by Nimue, Denna is going to betray Kvothe magically.  If that's the case, Merlin ended up sealed in a mountain, or something, if I recall.  If that's the case, staying in an inn isn't exactly of equal magnitude.  Naming Kvothe and then making him powerless is certainly possible, I suppose.  But what would give Denna cause to Name Kvothe? I can't think of anything, really.  

There are allot of indications that she wouldn't betray him if he didn't betray her first. I am sure that in the next book, instead of making sure her feet are firm beneath her as she puts it, Kvothe will do something to make her fall. There is allot of foreshadowing about Bredon/Master Ash, so i guess whatever he does will be related to his oath. The interesting thing is that throughout the books, Kvothe constantly mentions how well she understands him and how little he understands her, so as far as naming goes, it sure seems possible that she could do it (as i've said already i believe that Bredon is trying to wake her sleeper mind). She knows all his likes and dislikes, his desires, and she can even guess his thoughts and  when he is lying, so there is some foreshadowing here too. I doubt he will teach her himself though.

Jurble, on 18 March 2011 - 12:15 AM, said:

So, I'm still of the opinion that Kvothe's Oath is what ruined his powers, but somehow Denna betrayed him as well - they might be two separate events. The Betrayal and the loss of his Power might have occurred at different times.

  It's an oath, not some sort of spell that gets triggered and directly affects the target. He will break his oath, leading to events that will take away from him the things he swore on to. The interesting fact is that he swore by the ever waxing moon, so there is a good possibility that instead of his name, the name of the moon is in that chest inside his room. If the moon stops moving, the oath isn't valid anymore .

Edited by SkiesOfAzel, 18 March 2011 - 04:12 AM.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Thistle,

thistlepong, on 17 March 2011 - 11:42 PM, said:

I won't be surprised if Kaysera gets it's epithet with Sim's blood on it.

I wondered the same thing when Kvothe gave his toast to Shep "To friends who deserved better than they got."  I think book three is going to be extremely dark.

Skies,

But "Naming" in the KKC appears to be intrinsically linked to who a person is.  Kvothe takes what he tells Denna very seriously.  If he believes his oath should have the effect of robbing him of the ability to play and perform magic I think it could change his "Name" to fix those results in place.  

We'll see.

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison, 18 March 2011 - 05:43 AM.

[TeaSpoon]

Does anyone know what happened to Sovoy? He was around in the first half of NotW but then disappeared from the series. I liked him. He was an arrogant noble but not offensively so. He was good to his friends.

[Gaston de Foix]

TeaSpoon, on 18 March 2011 - 05:59 AM, said:

Does anyone know what happened to Sovoy? He was around in the first half of NotW but then disappeared from the series. I liked him. He was an arrogant noble but not offensively so. He was good to his friends.

I wondered too. I think PR felt he spent too long at the university, so he cut out any side plots that didn't advance the story. Sovoy was necessary in book 1 as a poitential suitor for Denna. He's not needed in book 2, so out he goes.

[Thyestean]

I personally disagree with the whole he broke his oath and lost his power theory. From the present kote, we see the chronicler talk about how at times he seems to be his old self and is afraid of kvothe. I believe this points more to the theory that he has lost his will to live and is depressed. It is also said that the best decisions he made were those he made without thinking, and the fact that he stated his parents dying wasn't the saddest part of the story. Which leads me to suspect that it will be a decision he makes that he ends up regretting, most likely with Denna or relating to her.

I would also like to add that I think Denna is more like Kvothe than we think. She seems to have a hidden motive or drive to find what she is looking for. What if it is the opposite, she is looking for the chandrian to help kill the amyr. She did write a song about lanre being the hero. Probably not the case, but i think there is an underlying story for her to be searching for magic rather than being used to piss off kvothe.  

Tying into the above point, maybe it is what is behind the door that betrays him. So much emphases it put onto the the creation war without clarifying key points. What if he releases lax in order to help with the destruction of the chandrian just to find out the story is wrong. He is betrayed by whatever is behind that door instead of helping him.

Of course this is all speculation, but maybe the specifics are left out because the true story is only known by the amyr and chandrian. But it seems to me it is more likely for kvothe to betray denna than the other way around. Which i think would destroy him more than if she were to betray him.

[Slick Mongoose]

TeaSpoon, on 18 March 2011 - 05:59 AM, said:

Does anyone know what happened to Sovoy? He was around in the first half of NotW but then disappeared from the series. I liked him. He was an arrogant noble but not offensively so. He was good to his friends.

Kvothe forgot about him.  

[thistlepong]

TeaSpoon, on 18 March 2011 - 05:59 AM, said:

Does anyone know what happened to Sovoy?

Sovoy disappears after bumping into Kvothe with Denna.  Later, he makes mention of maybe asking him how to find her but thinks better of it.  I imagine Sovoy was offended.

Grinachu, it's not unthinakble that Kvothe, believing he's doing the right thing, believeing he's helping, gets it all wrong, and brings the betrayal on himself.  I tend to agree with Jurble that his condition lines up too closely with his oath for it to be coincidental.

We haven't seen what happens to oathbreakers in the world, yet.  But, suppose Kvothe simply ruins somehting Denna worked hard and suffered for when his desire for vengeance brings him into conflict with her patron and she breaks his hand, writes the dark songs about him, spoils his relations with the Fae?  That's speculation, of course, but the conditions of the oath could be met via mundane means.

On a similar note, I got the distinct impression that the scene in the Crucible where Sim demonstrates the alchemical skin foreshadowed enmity.  "It was hard to get on Sim's bad side, but once you did there was no going back."

Skies, I hadn't remembered that bit in the hayloft.  Thanks.

Regarding the Cretaion War, I think Ergen was the aggressor.  I think the /(theft)/ of the moon was the catalyst, but if war came to the Fae with it, that implies the shapers there didn't start it.
The circumstances that lead to Lyra's death, which precipitated the actions of the Seven, are unknown.

[Maysek22]

Lyras death has always interested me.  In One story Lanre says something like "treachery led me to it, but her blood is on my hands".  This sounds like the Chaeth tree guy is involved.  We know lanre visited him, and i could see the him being told somthing like "Lyra and so-and-so make a lovely couple.  She laughs at the mention of your name, and when she sleeps she dreams of him." or something like that.  Innocent enough; she has a friend and they tell stories of lanre that make them laugh with pleasure, and people dream of other people all the time...but lanre could take it in a very different way, kill or confront lyra leading to her death.
Or similarily lanre is given answers on how to win the war or some such, without being told the repercussions, which are the death of lyra.  In any case i feel like that tree living douche bag is involved.

[unJon]

Just read the Skarpi get arresteds scene. Interesting that Skarpi knows not just Kvothe's name, but also the na$e of the Jusitce priest. He also has a line like "Tehlu always said--" that read to me like Skarpi actually knew Tehlu. Maybe he's a powerful namer and one of the first Amyr, actually witnessing the creation of angels in the second story? Feels like some clues in that scene.

[Grant]

unJon, on 18 March 2011 - 08:31 AM, said:

Just read the Skarpi get arresteds scene. Interesting that Skarpi knows not just Kvothe's name, but also the na$e of the Jusitce priest. He also has a line like "Tehlu always said--" that read to me like Skarpi actually knew Tehlu. Maybe he's a powerful namer and one of the first Amyr, actually witnessing the creation of angels in the second story? Feels like some clues in that scene.

That reminds me of an odd thought I had about that scene.  All of the kids fled, but Kvothe stayed and apparently did not hide. The Justice took a long look around the room, but apparently nobody noticed him except Skarpi.

So I'm wondering if Namers are able to hide themselves or other the sight.  That might also explain how Elodin was able to observe a card game in a crowded bar.  

The whole idea is unlikely because then Manet would not be Elodin  

[Gaston de Foix]

Grant, on 18 March 2011 - 09:02 AM, said:

That reminds me of an odd thought I had about that scene.  All of the kids fled, but Kvothe stayed and apparently did not hide. The Justice took a long look around the room, but apparently nobody noticed him except Skarpi.

So I'm wondering if Namers are able to hide themselves or other the sight.  That might also explain how Elodin was able to observe a card game in a crowded bar.  

The whole idea is unlikely because then Manet would not be Elodin  

Another kid stayed as well IIRC

It's true Skarpi knew the name of the justice, but really, I think we are making too much of the scene.I don't have sufficient faith in PR's accuracy to treat Skarpi's knowledge of Kvothe's name as anything other than PR forgetting he hadn't mentioned it earlier. Skarpi=Amyr really doesn't work if you look at PR's vision of the Amyr as bloody handed and willing to burn the world down for the sake of the greater good (look at the sketch PR linked to on his website...if everyone has a link please post it below).

Maybe Elodin can make himself enshaedn? That would explain his knowledge of the card game.

[unJon]

Elodin not Manet? Heresy!

Great point about priests not seeing Kvothe. The looking around the room is emphasized a few times.

[Werthead]

The Wise Man's Fear by Patrick Rothfuss

Quote

Kvothe the Bloodless, Kvothe the Arcane, Kvothe the Kingkiller. He is a  legend but the real man is an enigma. A man named Chronicler is trying  to find out the truth behind the legend by convincing Kvothe to tell him  his life story, a task so long it will take three days to complete.

On  the second day, Kvothe relates more of his time at the Commonwealth  University, his ongoing feud with another student named Ambrose and his  increasingly proficient studies in various areas. He also tells of his  time spent in Vintas, serving a nobleman seeking to woo a lady, and  learning the arts of combat in far Ademre. But how much of Kvothe's  story is truth and how much is his own fabrication?

The Wise Man's Fear is the sequel to The Name of the Wind and the second in The Kingkiller Chronicle trilogy. Since the trilogy was originally one extremely long novel split into three parts, The Wise Man's Fear  has little preamble and not much of the climax. It starts, we follow  the story for a time, and then it ends with little resolved. For a novel  that is 1,000 pages long in hardcover, that should be a fairly damning  comment.

Rothfuss's saving grace is his immense writing skill. He  could make the telephone directory sound warm and interesting, and  whilst the book is extremely long most of the chapters are short and  snappy. The narrative is divided into two distinct sections, basically  Kvothe in the University and Kvothe out in the world, and these sections  are themselves fairly episodic. Whilst Kvothe's hunt for information  about the Chandrian, the mysterious creatures that killed his family,  provides a narrative spine of sorts, sometimes dozens of chapters pass  without this plot element being as much as mentioned.

As a result The Wise Man's Fear  feels less like a novel and more like a collection of tightly linked  short stories (a feeling added to by the fact that one episode in the  novel, The Road to Levinshir,  was previously published as a separate short story almost a decade ago).  This dichotomy - a very episodic book presented as a single novel -  creates problems for pacing and consistency, with some of the episodes  and stories being fascinating and others being tedious, whilst several  more interesting-sounding incidents (like Kvothe standing trial for a  misdemeanour) are skipped over in a couple of paragraphs. The Name of the Wind  suffered from this as well, such as the incongruous and dull draccus  incident towards the end of the book, but due to its much greater length  The Wise Man's Fear is even  more prone to it. Kvothe's dalliance with a famous Fae temptress goes on  for far too long and winds up feeling a bit like the porn version of  Tom Bombadil, whilst Kvothe's training montage with the Klingon Aiel  Dothraki Vikings of the far north-east is just plain dull. Those who  found Kvothe insufferable and Gary Stu-esque in the first novel will  likely plain hate him here, as he picks up a ton more skills (including  unarmed and armed combat, more magical skills and several more  languages) with ease.

But Rothfuss does seem to be more overtly  pulling the wool over the reader's eyes here. Kvothe reports on his  badass fighting skills but then in a 'present' incident is unable to  effectively defend himself from attack. Is this because he overrated his  combat abilities, or because he's rusty, or because he deliberately  holds back? The reader is invited to decide. Anomalies in Kvothe's story  are also pointed out by Chronicler, and Kvothe admits to occasionally  sprucing up his story. He's not exactly an unreliable narrator on the  scale of Severian in The Book of the New Sun,  but Rothfuss is at least letting the reader know that Kvothe himself  might not be the best person to tell his tale, but he's all we've got to  go on.

Elsewhere,  plot elements are carefully alluded to rather than being spelt out,  such as the motivations and identity of Denna's mysterious employer, or  the relationship between Kvothe and a minor character that Kvothe  himself is totally oblivious to. There is an impressive degree of  subtlety running through this brick-thick tome that will no doubt raise  questions and discussions that will keep fantasy forums busy until the  final volume is released.

Rothfuss's powers of prose and  characterisation remain highly impressive. The writing is rich and  atmospheric, setting the scene perfectly, and Rothfuss has a keen eye  for detail, humour and warmth (though in this book slightly more  undercut by bitterness and cynicism), but those hoping for the story to  explode into life, become bigger and more epic, will be disappointed. In  a way Rothfuss is writing an anti-epic fantasy, with the focus narrowly  on one character and the ordinary events that have been inflated out of  all proportion. This forces the reader to keep downplaying  expectations, since Rothfuss isn't playing the same game as a lot of  other epic fantasy authors.

The Wise Man's Fear  (****) is a difficult book to review, as it's well-written, sometimes  compulsively page-turning and features some extremely well-played and  subtle storytelling. On other, briefer, occasions it's tediously dull,  cloying and prone to attacks of purple prose (particularly in the frisky  fairy section). The book is also monstrously overlong and could have  been split into two or three more focused, shorter books without too  much of a problem. But Rothfuss is too good a writer to let the book's  many issues sink it, and the book ends with the reader left wanting to  know what happens next, which is the key thing. The novel is available  now in the UK and USA.

[Guy Kilmore]

TeaSpoon, on 18 March 2011 - 05:59 AM, said:

Does anyone know what happened to Sovoy? He was around in the first half of NotW but then disappeared from the series. I liked him. He was an arrogant noble but not offensively so. He was good to his friends.

Manet felt he served his purpose and it is no longer worth the meager effort in maintaining the Sovoy persona

[TeaSpoon]

grinachu, on 18 March 2011 - 09:48 AM, said:

Maybe Elodin can make himself enshaedn? That would explain his knowledge of the card game.

I don't think being "enshaedn" means being hidden or invisible or whatever. It means wearing a shaed, that thing Kvothe got from Felurian. And I don't think Elodin has one.

Edited by TeaSpoon, 18 March 2011 - 05:15 PM.

[lanceschaubert]

Couldn't get registered here in time to post this before my trip (I'm writing this on the go from NYC rather than home) but having enjoyed the lively discussion here, I was gonna post it all on here (despite how long it is). Unfortunately, like I said, reg. took longer than planned. Curious for your thoughts:

Alchemy & Kingkiller: Refining Kvothe

Much love & happy reading.

[me399]

I have not read any of this thread yet because I still have not finished the book. I got about 300-350 pages left to go. I have been milking it cause I don't want to finish and then have years of waiting to go. I had no clue, when starting this series, that I would love it so much.