422 replies to this topic

[unJon]

Oh, ok, I missed that the Adem lady actually explained that Rhinta meant "old creature ahped like man." I thought she just said Rhinta is a better name than Chandrian but didn't explain why.

[Misfortune]

I get the strong impression that modern day Naming is actually Shaping.  Think about the way that Kvothe thinks about things: knowing names means having mastery.  Felurian's reaction makes it clear that that is how the Shapers thought.  In fact, Felurian (the only source we have on the difference between 'shapers' and 'namers') never mentions the namers actually doing anything.  They merely know the hart and the fox (or somesuch) and the space in between.  It seems likely that knowing names is something that Namers did, and speaking names is something that Shapers did.

Also, my person theory is that Bredon is Master Ash is Stercus.  Bredon being Master Ash seems pretty solid, given all of the evidence brought up so far.  The first book seems to make it clear that Master Ash is one of the Chandrian.  He's obviously not Cinder or Haliax, and those are the only ones we've seen.  He can't be Delcenti, because Delcenti never speaks.  It would be pretty hard for Bredon to pose as a nobleman if he had blue flame everywhere he went, so that rules Cyphus out.  Ulnea and Alenta seem like feminine names to me.  Also, decay and blight seem like pretty hard tells to hide for a nobleman.  That leaves 'thrall of iron'.  I don't have a clue what that actually means, but think about this: every other visitor Kvothe has brings him an iron ring, while Bredon does not.  Bredon hints that this is a clever political maneuver, but that could just be an excuse.  I don't have the book handy... can anyone bring up a reference where Bredon directly interacts with iron?

Also, I had a weird thought about present day Kvothe.  His 'powers' fail him only when he needs them.  In his room, practicing Ketan, he seems to do fine.  He breaks a bottle without touching it as a display of anger, but can't use sympathy/naming to defend himself.  If his hands were clumsy all the time, you'd think it'd show up more often than just shaping a holly crown.  I mean, think about all of the things that you do with both of your hands every day, but only once, when it was important, did something go wrong for Kvothe.

I really, really don't think that Kvothe loses his powers because of the oath he swears to Denna.  At that point in the story, Kvothe didn't know any names, certainly not his own.  He only a potential namer.  Also, if something like that stuck, I'd imagine that he'd feel something or know that he'd bound himself.  The 'changing his name' argument seems a lot more solid to me.

[Slick Mongoose]

Misfortune, on 14 March 2011 - 01:52 PM, said:

Also, my person theory is that Bredon is Master Ash is Stercus.  Bredon being Master Ash seems pretty solid, given all of the evidence brought up so far.  The first book seems to make it clear that Master Ash is one of the Chandrian.  He's obviously not Cinder or Haliax, and those are the only ones we've seen.  He can't be Delcenti, because Delcenti never speaks.  It would be pretty hard for Bredon to pose as a nobleman if he had blue flame everywhere he went, so that rules Cyphus out.  Ulnea and Alenta seem like feminine names to me.  Also, decay and blight seem like pretty hard tells to hide for a nobleman.  That leaves 'thrall of iron'.  I don't have a clue what that actually means, but think about this: every other visitor Kvothe has brings him an iron ring, while Bredon does not.  Bredon hints that this is a clever political maneuver, but that could just be an excuse. I don't have the book handy... can anyone bring up a reference where Bredon directly interacts with iron?

Interesting.

And Stercus is latin for shit.

[SkiesOfAzel]

I finally managed to read TWMF. In the beginning I was disappointed. Overabundance of melodrama, cliches, constant use of stereotypes etc. Most fantasy books are a form of escapism, but in order for this to work, the suspension of disbelief needs to be retained. So there needs to be some hint of realism mixed in all those fanciful events that are part of the story.

  I mean almost every girl was beautiful (and most of them desired a roll in the hay with the protagonist ). Even Felurian showed signs that she cared about Kvothe and not just the song. This was overdone so much that I half expected Kvothe to trip the granny medic he met after saving those girls, after all she was the only one that had gotten away till then . The Adem society on the other hand was over the top, one dimensional and frankly totally unrealistic. We also learned that Kvothe is a descendant of a long, secret and very important line (wow how original   ) and there were allot more things that bothered me in a similar way.

  Then there was the pacing of the book. Some parts were too long, and the story didn't move forward that much. I mean Kvothe has to learn at least 3 more names, Ambrose is still 10th in the line of succession, and we learned almost nothing about the Chandrian. How will the 3rd book manage to catch up to the present is beyond me.

  Still, when I though this through a little more, I realized that all this doesn't matter much, I enjoyed reading this book despite all the flaws I perceived, and in the end that's what counts. I mean not every book has to be a masterpiece of literature or make you revise your world view and such , some books are just meant to be fun. I even had to guiltily admit to myself that although the Wheel Of Time was even worse in the departments that bugged me with TWMF, I actually enjoyed the 3 first books.

  I also noticed another thing that seems interesting. There are too many coincidences in this story, and most of them have to do with timing. This can be another cliché, but It might also be a clue that something else is going on.

  I started noticing this while reading TNOTW but back then I didn't have enough to form a theory with. Now I think I do. Of course, it all starts with Larne:

  Larne wanted the power to bring Lyra back to life, but till I heard of Iax, I didn't know who could give him some power. Iax, as the most powerful of shapers could change Larne's name, giving him power over names and creating what became Haliax in the process. Most of us assume that Larne just wants to destroy the world, but I don't think this is his purpose. I think that he needs Iax, either to help him die, or to help him call Lyra back from the dead (the first theory seems the more possible to me). Iax though is prisoned behind stone doors as far as I can tell . I am guessing that whoever imprisoned Iax was an Amyr, probably Selitos himself. So Larne needs a descendant with the proper blood, to open this door willingly. Here comes Kvothe. I don't think his father's song was the reason they attacked his camp and killed everyone, I think that it was all to give him a motive to pursue them, and to make sure he stayed ignorant of who he really was. Similarly, they wanted him to learn about the vase they destroyed during the wedding, they even went as far as to get Denna there... There is also Brenton/ Ash, why would a respectable Vintas noble go to the trouble to find an unknown and untested girl in Immre to sponsor ? The timing of Kvothe's trial and his invitation to Vintas are also a little too convenient.

  So I believe that the Chandrian have strings attached to allot of people important and otherwise, in one way or another, and they use all those strings to guide Kvothe till he is in front of that door .

Edited by SkiesOfAzel, 14 March 2011 - 03:20 PM.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

SkiesOfAzel, on 14 March 2011 - 02:09 PM, said:

  Larne wanted the power to bring Lyra back to life, but till I heard of Iax, I didn't know who could give him some power. Iax, as the most powerful of shapers could change Larne's name, giving him power over names and creating what became Haliax in the process. Most of us assume that Larne just wants to destroy the world, but I don't think this is his purpose. I think that he needs Iax, either to help him die, or to help him call Lyra back from the dead (the first theory seems the more possible to me). Iax though is prisoned behind stone doors as far as I can tell . I am guessing that whoever imprisoned Iax was an Amyr, probably Selitos himself. So Larne needs a descendant with the proper blood, to open this door willingly. Here comes Kvothe. I don't think his father's song was the reason they attacked his camp and killed everyone, I think that it was all to give him a motive to pursue them, and to make sure he stayed ignorant of who he really was. Similarly, they wanted him to learn about the vase they destroyed during the wedding, they even went as far as to get Denna there... There is also Brenton/ Ash, why would a respectable Vintas noble go to the trouble to find an unknown and untested girl in Immre to sponsor ? The timing of Kvothe's trial and his invitation to Vintas are also a little too convenient.

  So I believe that the Chandrian have strings attached to allot of people important and otherwise, in one way or another, and they use all those strings to guide Kvothe till he is in front of that door .

Eh, if Kvothe could open a stone door, then so could Chronicler, he's also a Lockless descendant.  Presumably, there's tons of them out there, so why would Kvothe be special in that regard?

Edited by Jurble, 14 March 2011 - 03:28 PM.

[Maysek22]

I dont understand people who feel that everything that kvothe goes through is unrealistic because of the enormity and awesomeness of his deeds and life - an abundance of hot girls, everyone of them loving him, charmed life, heroic adventures, general success, excellent breeding... There are examples of this in our life that are even more fairy tale - JFK - Talented athelete, war hero, survived a sunken ship where almost every other person died in the pacific, banged marylin monroe, comes from one of the most influencial families in american history, married angelic debutante jackie onasis, became president of the united states, the most powerful man in the world... The truth is, there are lots of people who live charmed lives of success and power, fictional kvothe among them...

Everyone who thinks kvothe's life is too fake, imagine a fiction style book written about JFK?  would you call that unrealistic? Food for thought

[thistlepong]

grinachu, on 14 March 2011 - 11:30 AM, said:

I have one more discovery/perspective to share with y'all. NOTW, page 633

"The mercenary's eyes sharpened again, focusing on Kvothe.  The wide, humorless
smile reappeared, made macabre by the blood running down his
face. "Te aithiyn Seathaloi?" he demanded. "Te Rhintae?"

I find it very curious that the mercenary is using a word that seems to be similar to the Ademic word "Rhinta" which means "old things in the shape of men" or Chandrian. Why would the mercenary be questioning Kvothe about the Chandrian?

He's speaking Fae in that scene; Bast calls it an old dialect. Amouen appears in Felurian’s song and she uses it a couple times.  My guess is that he’s associated with the Sithe, with no other support than he says Seathaloi twice and fails to meet their expectations for a skin dancer.

Vorfelan Rhinata Morie is chiseled deep into the stone above the massive doors to the Archives. (NotW ch36)

After Lorren consents to Elodin's request that Kvothe be allowed access to the Archives, Kvothe asks Wil what the words mean: "The desire for knowledge shapes a man," he said.  "Or something like that."(WMF ch13)

Bast says, "[The Rhinna] are a panacea, Reshi.  They can heal any illness.  Cure any poison.  Mend any wound."

Shehyn's descriptions for Rhinta:
"A bad thing.  A man who is more than a man, yet less than a man."
"Old things in the shape of men.  And a handful worse than all the rest.  They walk the world freely and do terrible things."

So Rhinta, Rhintae(plural? associative/of the Rhinta?), Rhinna(flower), Rhinata.  Save rhinna all are probably related to man or shape/man.

Given the latin/spanish implications of te, the puppet was probably asking Kvothe if he was Chandrian.

[Slick Mongoose]

Q: Why isn't Manet present in the fishery after Kvothe first names the wind (in NOTW), and is taken there by his friends? Manet spends loads of time there, you'd think he'd hear of this and he's Kvothe's friend and mentor.

A: He's Elodin.  

(Quick, somebody, shoot unJon's theory down before I convince myself properly.... )

[Maysek22]

SkiesOfAzel, on 14 March 2011 - 02:09 PM, said:

  Larne wanted the power to bring Lyra back to life, but till I heard of Iax, I didn't know who could give him some power. Iax, as the most powerful of shapers could change Larne's name, giving him power over names and creating what became Haliax in the process. Most of us assume that Larne just wants to destroy the world, but I don't think this is his purpose. I think that he needs Iax, either to help him die, or to help him call Lyra back from the dead (the first theory seems the more possible to me). Iax though is prisoned behind stone doors as far as I can tell . I am guessing that whoever imprisoned Iax was an Amyr, probably Selitos himself. So Larne needs a descendant with the proper blood, to open this door willingly. Here comes Kvothe. I don't think his father's song was the reason they attacked his camp and killed everyone, I think that it was all to give him a motive to pursue them, and to make sure he stayed ignorant of who he really was. Similarly, they wanted him to learn about the vase they destroyed during the wedding, they even went as far as to get Denna there... There is also Brenton/ Ash, why would a respectable Vintas noble go to the trouble to find an unknown and untested girl in Immre to sponsor ? The timing of Kvothe's trial and his invitation to Vintas are also a little too convenient.

  So I believe that the Chandrian have strings attached to allot of people important and otherwise, in one way or another, and they use all those strings to guide Kvothe till he is in front of that door .

Love your thought about the Chandrian having put kvothe into every situation he's been in!  We know Lanre/Haliax went and saw the future telling tree guy, so we can assume that he saw a fair bit about the future, and unlike kvothe was a hardened adult veteran of the creation war so didnt run off terrified like 16 year old kvothe before the information got interesting - yes this theory makes the chain of events make more sense to me, especially all the coincidences that could seem like deus ex machina plot devices to some...I like the idea that Lanre has been waiting 5k years for kvothe to be born so that he can open the lockless box/stone doors etc...brilliant

[unJon]

@thistlepong. Based on your quotes, I'm going to say that the "rhin" root means "to shape". The dancer thing is asking Kvothe if he's a Shaper or maybe if he's been Shaped (because he senses the Name changin Kvothe?).

@ Slick. Resitence I futile.

[Slick Mongoose]

unJon, on 14 March 2011 - 07:10 AM, said:

Crackpot theory alert:

Or Elodin is Manet. Explains 2 and 5.

Maysek22, on 14 March 2011 - 10:22 AM, said:

.
So my crackpot theory is that Elodin, who is not actually insane, just acts erratic for show, is a chandrian/chandrian agent.

Slick Mongoose, on 14 March 2011 - 10:40 AM, said:

It does make absolute sense for both groups to have agents in the university. Anyone who'se able to threaten the Chandrian would in all likelyhood come from there.

OK, how about this:

Elodin is an agent/recruiter, for the Amyr or Chandrian, doesn't matter which. Manet works for him. An eternal E'lir is a useful position to be in to spot people early and keep tabs on them.

It has the same explanatory power, with none (OK, maybe a little) of the silliness.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

How about this:

Manet is a Shaper.  By not moving up ranks, he stays hidden from the Masters, who are all Namers (and thus his enemies), but at the same time, he knows more about his foes than any Shaper in millenia.

[Slick Mongoose]

Manet is Iax.

[polishgenius]

Is there any significance between the name Haliax and Iax, do we think? It's certain that they're not the same person, is it not. Maybe it's a bit of a hint to support SkiesofAzel's theory about the two, above.

Jurble, on 14 March 2011 - 03:27 PM, said:

Eh, if Kvothe could open a stone door, then so could Chronicler, he's also a Lockless descendant.  Presumably, there's tons of them out there, so why would Kvothe be special in that regard?

Maybe something to do with the combination of his Lockless blood with the Edama Ruh? Straying into crackpot theory territory here, but maybe they need a Shaper to open them and the Ruh are descendants of shapers where the ability breeds true occasionally/always but people don't know? Or something along those lines.

[Zizoz]

Manet is a French painter.

[SkiesOfAzel]

Jurble, on 14 March 2011 - 03:27 PM, said:

Eh, if Kvothe could open a stone door, then so could Chronicler, he's also a Lockless descendant.  Presumably, there's tons of them out there, so why would Kvothe be special in that regard?

Well, he isn't a direct descendant though, but i will grant you that they could have picked another direct descendant in the past and not wait for Kvothe. Maybe Larne just follows what Ctaeth told him to, and maybe other factions are working towards steering Kvothe in their desired direction. My theory is just that, a theory, i don't have any conclusive evidence to point you to. You must admit though that Larne wanting to free Iax fits, and that it's interesting that the Lockless family is connected with a stone door when Iax is also said to be imprisoned behind stone.

Maysek22, on 14 March 2011 - 03:44 PM, said:

I dont understand people who feel that everything that kvothe goes through is unrealistic because of the enormity and awesomeness of his deeds and life - an abundance of hot girls, everyone of them loving him, charmed life, heroic adventures, general success, excellent breeding... There are examples of this in our life that are even more fairy tale - JFK - Talented athelete, war hero, survived a sunken ship where almost every other person died in the pacific, banged marylin monroe, comes from one of the most influencial families in american history, married angelic debutante jackie onasis, became president of the united states, the most powerful man in the world... The truth is, there are lots of people who live charmed lives of success and power, fictional kvothe among them...

Everyone who thinks kvothe's life is too fake, imagine a fiction style book written about JFK?  would you call that unrealistic? Food for thought

  You undoubtedly have a point, there are always some few exceptions to the rule. But that doesn't mean they help keep the suspension of disbelief, especially when they are combined with other unrealistic and sometimes outrageous parts of the story. I also don't think that Kvothe banging everything that moves should be so central to the story .

Maysek22, on 14 March 2011 - 03:56 PM, said:

Love your thought about the Chandrian having put kvothe into every situation he's been in!  We know Lanre/Haliax went and saw the future telling tree guy, so we can assume that he saw a fair bit about the future, and unlike kvothe was a hardened adult veteran of the creation war so didnt run off terrified like 16 year old kvothe before the information got interesting - yes this theory makes the chain of events make more sense to me, especially all the coincidences that could seem like deus ex machina plot devices to some...I like the idea that Lanre has been waiting 5k years for kvothe to be born so that he can open the lockless box/stone doors etc...brilliant

  I am convinced that at least one group is manipulating Kvothe, but i don't think the Chandrian have put Kvothe into every single situation he's been in. I don't for example think that Skapri is a Chandrian or one of their agents but he certainly played a key role in steering Kvothe's life. He might be a namer or even an Amyr (which i kind of doubt) but for some reason he was the catalyst in Kvothe's decision to leave the city and join the University. Auri is also preparing him for something and she is most probably a fae. So i think we have allot of interested parties here, not just the Chandrian.

  And since we are talking about Auri, initially i thought that Bast could be somehow related to her, but after reading TWMF it's obvious he can also be Kvothe's son. He might be 150 years old, but time passes differently in Fae, Kvothe stayed there almost a year but he was lost to the world for a day or two iirc.There is also the part in NOTW where Bast watches Kvothe sleep and sings that song:

"How odd to watch a mortal kndle
Then to dwindle day by day.
Knowing their bright souls are tinder
And the wind will have its way.
Would i could my own fire lend.
What does your flickering portend?"

Seems like a very intimate moment and Bast doesn't look like the tender type to me.

Misfortune, on 14 March 2011 - 01:52 PM, said:

I really, really don't think that Kvothe loses his powers because of the oath he swears to Denna.  At that point in the story, Kvothe didn't know any names, certainly not his own.  He only a potential namer.  Also, if something like that stuck, I'd imagine that he'd feel something or know that he'd bound himself.  The 'changing his name' argument seems a lot more solid to me.

  While i agree with the rest of your post, i really don't think that his promise is mentioned so explicitly by accident or just for flavor. I just don't think that it's directly responsible, like a curse or a spell. He broke his promise, thus things happened to him that led to lose the things he promised upon.

Edited by SkiesOfAzel, 14 March 2011 - 05:50 PM.

[Zizoz]

Bast as Kvothe's son has been brought up before, but as was pointed out, he's introduced to Chronicler as "son of Remmen", so it's rather unlikely. Kvothe does have a lot of names but if Remmen is one of them there's no reason for him not to have mentioned it when he listed all his other names at the beginning.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

Skarpi is definitely Amyr, imo. The Chandrian, so far, seem to be set to certain tasks by Haliax (i.e. destabilize southern Vint), I don't see how inspiring Kvothe would be one of them, unless Haliax foresaw Kvothe would go to Fae and meet the Chaeth. That leaves several groups of power: the Amyr, the Singers, the Sithe, (and the Angels).  Haliax doesn't mention the Angels when the he mentions the group he protects the Chandrian from, because the oath the Angels swore to Aleph implies they only look at the current, they don't bear past grudges, so if one of the Chandrian does something stupid in the open where someone can pray to Tehlu, then he's in trouble, but otherwise the Angels will ignore them.  Also, Skarpi isn't an angel, he doesn't have wings. Skarpi clearly isn't a Singer or a Sithe, so that only leaves Amyr.  

The evidence that he's Amyr is that: He knows the true story of the Creation War, and the true origins of Tehlu and the Angels.  And he knew Kvothe's name.  He's an old man, and the Fae don't appear to age, so he's not a Sithe.  He doesn't sing, so he's not a singer.  And he definitely seems to be a good guy, so he's not a Chandrian. QED Amyr.

[imalittleteapot]

Jurble, on 14 March 2011 - 03:27 PM, said:

Eh, if Kvothe could open a stone door, then so could Chronicler, he's also a Lockless descendant.  Presumably, there's tons of them out there, so why would Kvothe be special in that regard?

Heres the riddle rhyme from chapter 108 of TWMF
Seven things stand before
The entrance to the Lackless door.
One of them a ring unworn
One a word that is forsworn
One a time that must be right
One a candle without light
One a son who brings the blood
One a door that holds the flood
One a thing tight-held in keeping
Then comes that which comes with sleeping.

There was another small thing noticed when  TNOTW CH72 where Denna and Kvothe look for Master Ash at the burnt out farm, a few things happen here in the space of 2 or 3 pages.
Kvothe tells Deena he looks for her all the time
They both acknowledges it was the Chandrian that killed all the wedding guests and
Kvothe also where tells her she is better suited to play the harp.
But During TWMF Deena claims to remember nothing of this but she still thanks Kvothe for suggesting she learn the harp ? is this PR error is Denna full of it or is she scared of master Ash ?


edit -  If Auri turns out to be some long lost princess and Kvothe saves her i can see PR trying to marry her of to Ambrose with Ambrose being his usual charming self towards her and Kvothe killing him for it.

Edited by imalittleteapot, 14 March 2011 - 11:22 PM.

[AverageGuy]

Misfortune, on 14 March 2011 - 01:52 PM, said:

He breaks a bottle without touching it as a display of anger.

I've forgotten this.  When was it again?

Quote

I really, really don't think that Kvothe loses his powers because of the oath he swears to Denna.  At that point in the story, Kvothe didn't know any names, certainly not his own.  He only a potential namer.  Also, if something like that stuck, I'd imagine that he'd feel something or know that he'd bound himself.  The 'changing his name' argument seems a lot more solid to me.

I imagine it's poetic rather than an actual magical oath, but it fits.  Kvothe finally goes looking for patron, and whoops, there are the Chandrian.  Or Ambrose.  Or whoever the king he kills is.  Something that ends up damaging his left hand and his alar.

imalittleteapot, on 14 March 2011 - 06:43 PM, said:

Heres the riddle rhyme from chapter 108 of TWMF
Seven things stand before
The entrance to the Lackless door.
One of them a ring unworn
One a word that is forsworn
One a time that must be right
One a candle without light
One a son who brings the blood
One a door that holds the flood
One a thing tight-held in keeping
Then comes that which comes with sleeping.

Comparing with the other rhyme Kvothe heard and what Meluan shows Kvothe before she found out he was a Ruh:

"One of them a ring unworn" / "One's a ring that's not for wearing"

The round not-a-key Meluan has.

"One a word that is forsworn" / "One's a sharp word not for swearing"

The Yllish story knot on the box.

"One a time that must be right"

Night with no moon?  Or a full moon?

"One a candle without light" / "Right beside her husband's candle"

Unsure.  The Amyr?  Their symbol is said to resemble a candle once.

"One a son who brings the blood"

Male descendent.  Kvothe should qualify.

"One a door that holds the flood" / "There's a door without a handle"

Right beside her husband's candle there's a door without a handle-- don't know.  I'd assume it's the door itself, but it supposed to "stand before the Lackless door," so...  Taken literally, it may be a water door which can be raised to flood the room where the door is.  Total speculation though.

"One a thing tight-held in keeping" / "There's a secret she's been keeping"

Again, don't know.

"Then comes that which comes with sleeping" / "She's been dreaming and not sleeping"

Also don't know.

Edited by AverageGuy, 14 March 2011 - 08:32 PM.