401 replies to this topic

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

Thaykora, on 27 March 2011 - 10:58 PM, said:

Some of this might be old, some might be new, some might be wrong. Mostly, this is an assortment of things I noticed and I propose that you consider. If you find good reason why it's wrong, speak up.

• Kv dreams of things right after his troupe is killed. He notes he dreamt of knowledge he never had. I propose that the Amyr did arrive after the Chandrian left, but could not be seen. These dreams likely came to him from the Amyr, as at the end of the dream he see's giant waystones forming a circle around him. The greystones are the amyr, or related to them.
  
  
• Auri has been sent by the Amyr, Sithe or another group. There is likely a huge interest in Kvothe because he survived the chandrian. Kv first meets Auri (Ari) in Tarbean. He points out a 'boy' with blonde hair that is helping the other homeless children when he goes to say goodbye. This 'boy' named Ari commands the attention of all the other children. Whether he has made this connection in present day is unknown.
  
  
• Auri may be faen. This explains why she looks 20 and acts younger. She makes reference to the cthae when she mentions wanting the shimmer off the wings of a blue dragonfly and being close enough to touch them. She first shows up when a sliver of sunlight hits the courtyard were she lives. She has no problem opening the gate to get inside. She mentions wanting the moon but not getting it. Makes me think of Jax/Iax.
  
  
• Kvothe kills Wilem. This may be the poet, or king. Chronicler does he not answer "Did you design it yourself?" when Kv asks about the cipher he will use. Instead he stares at the paper for a long while and changes the subject. Wilem says later that he fumbled his cipher with Lorren during admissions. Additionally, in one of the books a connection is made between working in the archives and eventually becoming a scribe.
  
  
• There is a significant group known as the Grey Twelve. The number twelve is used A LOT when you see someone cursing another person, usually with a reference to color as well. Auri tells Kv that a mother owl made nest in an area of the Underthing she calls Grey Twelve, which was 'bold as brass', rare, as owls are wise before bold. This owl has a face like a wicked moon. This group/area is likely significant. Who are these twelve?
  
  
• Kvothe tells us his name is pronounced Quothe. Elodin tells us about the name of a place called Quoyan Hayel, House of the Wind. Quoyan is likely made from two parts: Quo (wind) and -ian (like in the word Canadian). So part of Kvothe's name means Wind. What about the rest of it?
  
  
• El'the likely means: the singers. Kvothe means Wind Signer.

Edit: I started with like 40 bullet points, but eventually scrapped a few that I thought spoiled too much, and a few that require more work. If anyone has a PDF version of the second book, let me know. I have no problem asking for it because I paid for both books

*Magic

*Auri is a cracked girl at the university, she may be Princess Ariel, we don't know, but she wasn't in Tarbean - Elodin says he's been coming to see her for 2 years or something similar in Wise Man's Fear.  Kvothe would have still been at Tarbean 2 years ago at the point that Elodin says that.

*She's not Fae, the Underthing is full of iron, and she doesn't seem discomfited.

*There's no indication that Kvothe kills Wil. Simmon is the poet, and Kvothe doesn't really seem to find the name Kaysera the Poet-killer shocking, just amusing.  He's taken aback when the smith's apprentice first says it, because it's something he's never heard before.  Later on, he smiles when he remembers it.  The confusion in the name of the sword probably comes from the idea that a Caesura is a break in a line of poetry, some ignorant farmer misheard/misunderstood and believed that Kvothe had used his sword, Kaysera, to break a poet.  Also, Wil is Cealdish, why would become the King of Vint?

*What.

*We're told what Kvothe's name means. I don't think his father had any reason to lie O-o.

*El'the probably means Listener.  See-er, Speaker, Listener seems to be the logical Namer progression.

[Thaykora]

I had some of the same hesitations that you do. I see both sides to a lot of things I posted, but that decision was dictated by opinion. I guess we all get one.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

You know, Cob and his fellow men seem to regard Kvothe as a folk hero.  If the king he killed was Vintish, you'd think they'd hold that against him.  

Does Atur have a king?


I just thought of something - Kvothe failing at math.  Unless their math is waaaaaaaaaaaay far ahead of their time period, like even further than their chemistry seems to be, Kvothe fails at, at most, algebra? Or even basic calc.

Edited by Jurble, 28 March 2011 - 01:00 AM.

[thistlepong]

Kvothe the Arcane and Kvothe Kingkiller are two very different men, says.
Still, I've been questioning Vintas as well.

grinachu, on 26 March 2011 - 02:03 PM, said:

Thistle, are you implying the Chandrian might not be responsible for the death? if so the Ctaeth has made it clear they were.

The Cthaeh does not explicitly mention killing.

“What can you tell me about the Chandrian?” I asked.
"Since you ask so sweetly, Cinder is the one you want. Remember him? White hair? Dark eyes? Did things to your mother, you know. Terrible. She held up well though. Laurian was always a trouper, if you'll pardon the expression. Much better than your father, with all his begging and blubbering."

"Why?" the Cthaeh echoed. "What a good question. I know so many whys. Why did they do such nasty things to your poor family? Why, because they wanted to, and because they could, and because they had a reason.  Why did they leave you alive? Why, because they were sloppy, and because you were lucky, and because something scared them away."

I think it's open enough to leave doubt.  A sort of classic structure would cast Cinder as the father and arrange a confrontation with him.  A careful reader would note the jibe Laurian aims at Arliden about his not having red hair.  But no, ultimately I'm not suggesting the Chandrian are not responsible.  Merely pointing out that we haven't seen the Seven do anything.  They're the big mystery; seems they'd be mysterious.

Looking it over the Cthaeh isn't obligated to answer questions or to tell the truth.  The unwavering faith of Felurian and Bast that it doesn't lie just means it would speak carefully.  It certainly appears to be a Cinder hater though.

For BS consideration:

• Alveron is Denna's ultimate patron.
  

  The Maer sends him on a suicide mission less than 24 hours after their fight.  She half suspects the song is for Alveron himself.  He's at least as secretive as the Maer.

• The wound that's not silver as NotW opens is a broken circle brand.
  

  No evidence.  None.  It bugs me, that wound.  And it'd be component to the worst kind of tragedy.

• The tinker in Hespe's story and the beggar in Kvothe's are the same, as is Skarpi.
  

  The tinker loses his hat and it's up to him to mend the broken house.
  The beggar has no hat for his head and no pack for his back.
  The beggar says, "I am called Sceop." (storyteller)
  Sceop stays with the Ruh for many years and tells them many stories.
  Sceop and Skarpi look and taste similar.
  Skarpi has a bet that he knows any story asked for.

  He's also Bredon

  Skarpi has thick white hair on his head and face.
  Skarpi means sharp/cutting.
  Bredon means sword.
  Bredon has thick white hair on his head and face.

  _{this next bit gets a little crazy}
  All of the above are Aleph

  Bredon's game, Tak, is named after a recursive benchmarking function.
  (recursion is the process of repeating items in a self-similar way)
  Jax tells the Tinker it's up to him to mend the broken house.
  Aleph is the only uberNamer left alive and free at the close of the Creation War.
  

  _{Will Kvothe reveal this?  Does Chronicler know?}

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

thistlepong, on 28 March 2011 - 12:54 AM, said:

For BS consideration:

• Alveron is Denna's ultimate patron.
  

  The Maer sends him on a suicide mission less than 24 hours after their fight.  She half suspects the song is for Alveron himself.  He's at least as secretive as the Maer.

• The wound that's not silver as NotW opens is a broken circle brand.
  

  No evidence.  None.  It bugs me, that wound.  And it'd be component to the worst kind of tragedy.

• The tinker in Hespe's story and the beggar in Kvothe's are the same, as is Skarpi.
  

  The tinker loses his hat and it's up to him to mend the broken house.
  The beggar has no hat for his head and no pack for his back.
  The beggar says, "I am called Sceop." (storyteller)
  Sceop stays with the Ruh for many years and tells them many stories.
  Sceop and Skarpi look and taste similar.
  Skarpi has a bet that he knows any story asked for.

  He's also Bredon

  Skarpi has thick white hair on his head and face.
  Skarpi means sharp/cutting.
  Bredon means sword.
  Bredon has thick white hair on his head and face.

  _{this next bit gets a little crazy}
  All of the above are Aleph

  Bredon's game, Tak, is named after a recursive benchmarking function.
  (recursion is the process of repeating items in a self-similar way)
  Jax tells the Tinker it's up to him to mend the broken house.
  Aleph is the only uberNamer left alive and free at the close of the Creation War.
  

  _{Will Kvothe reveal this?  Does Chronicler know?}

Skarpi is Sceop is Iax's Tinker is Aleph, and, of course, Aleph is Manet. So it all works out.

I noticed the old man's name being Sceop as well, but I thought it might have just been Rothfuss on an Old English tangent, what with Caesura (a latin word, but caesuras are all over Beowulf if I recall) too.

I wonder what Iax's original broken house is meant to represent? His broken mansion is the Fae.  Perhaps his broken house was an earlier project-world?

Just thinking about it, the Tinker gives Iax glasses, and suddenly he can see the stars and the moon.  Maybe it's a metaphor.  The Tinker is Aleph, and he teaches Iax how to See. So, what really happens is, under Aleph's tutelage Iax becomes an E'lir, basically.

Then we can imagine that Iax's further travels are actually Iax's chasing the wind period (though, he really wants the moon, I guess).  Iax is still an E'lir at this point, and he comes to Teccam (maybe maybe not)'s cave.  Though, Teccam wasn't named as a Namer by Selitos, so all that really matches is the cave. The man in the cave definitely isn't Selitos.  Perhaps, it's Aleph, and the tinker was random Namer #3.   The guy at the cave teaches Iax about Listening, and how to be an El'the.  But Iax doesn't have the patience to be a Listener (an Old Knower).

But that view of the story totally misses an Re'lar tutelage period in Iax's life.  Moreover, he'd just be an (true) E'lir.  

Though, maybe, the Tinker's packs represent all the things that his first teacher taught him to see.  The man at the cave teaches him the names of these things.  So perhaps the man at the cave imparts to Iax how to actually go about Naming things.  But he fails to impart to Iax how to listen.


I really want to know the mechanics of Shaping.  When a Namer looks at a dog, he says, "Dog" and now has power over it.  But would a Shaper look at a dog and say, "Cat" and suddenly the dog is now a cat?  And what about Old Knowers, would they just say, "Yeah, that's a dog." but not actually use that knowledge to command it?

Like, maybe it's a fine line between shaping and naming.  Elodin tells the stone wall to break, and breaks.  But Fela turns the stone into a ring, is that Shaping?  In fact, it sounds like basic shaping.  It's not making a tree of silver, but it's still telling the stone to do something.  But it's not changing the fundamental name of the stone...

Edited by Jurble, 28 March 2011 - 01:27 AM.

[thistlepong]

Jurble, on 28 March 2011 - 01:12 AM, said:

Maybe it's a metaphor.

I think the idea is that the broken house at the end of a broken road is the world.  You'll remember that Lanre thinks there's something terribly wrong with it as well.  It's a fine old mansion fallen into disrepair.

The story is a metaphor for missing the point.  Iax has all the same information as Aleph but none of the wisdom.  In Hespe's story the odd old man could simply be the generation gap or the philosophical difference: the thrilling challenge of moving the moon versus we probably wanna keep that right where it is.

Jurble, on 28 March 2011 - 01:12 AM, said:

Like, maybe it's a fine line between shaping and naming.

"these old name-knowers moved smoothly through the world.  they knew the fox and they knew the hare, and they knew the space between the two."

The odd old man perfectly illustrates this.  He knows everything about the knot just by listening to it.  He doesn't ask the knot to change but merely to open.

"then came those who saw a thing and thought of changing it. they thought in terms of mastery."

The students have no idea Fela has found the name of stone eight times.  She doesn't boast about it.  I believe calling the name of stone is shaping, but in that scene it's a small act, quiet and respectful, meant only to demonstrate her ability.  I promise the final project in Naming 404: The Incomplete Jackass in Society isn't going to be "shape an orange stone suit and clobber the student who knows the name of iron."

(Edit: Manet has grey hair.)

Edited by thistlepong, 28 March 2011 - 01:50 AM.

[Slick Mongoose]

I'm not sure that creating a stone ring is shaping any more than unravelling a knot or breaking stone is. The stone is still stone, the rope is still rope. Nothing fundamental has changed.

[Slick Mongoose]

Thaykora, on 27 March 2011 - 10:58 PM, said:

[*]Kvothe tells us his name is pronounced Quothe.

I thought his name was pronounced like quothe. Not the same thing. The kv- sound is still there, the rest of it sounds like the second half of quothe.

[Gaston de Foix]

Slick Mongoose, on 28 March 2011 - 03:42 AM, said:

I'm not sure that creating a stone ring is shaping any more than unravelling a knot or breaking stone is. The stone is still stone, the rope is still rope. Nothing fundamental has changed.

I agree with this. Fela is a Namer not a Shaper. She is only doing what Elodin was doing with the stone wall. She broke the stone to reveal the ring inside.

Atur has an Emperor, so Kvothe-Kingkiller doesn't work. I think the King of Vint is the most likely suspect still, because at this point introducing a new King from one of the small Kingdoms would be a lot of work.

Great catch, Thistle with the Hebrew meaning of Ruach. I buy that.

I think you misunderstood me though about trying to work out various languages semantically. I just don't think Fae language is designed to have any relationship with English or Latin or Hebrew. I think it's like Tolkein's languages, you can't really work out the meaning of Elvish unless you have a sentence in Elvish and a sentence in English which say the same thing.

You are so wrong about the Ctaeth, but a detailed refutation will have to wait till later.

Btw, someone asked if there is a list of errors in the books. There aren't really errors in TNOW because it's the first book, although there are incongruities. But there are many errors in WMF. Stapes' rings, Sim's father being a duke, Denna's forgetfulness, Auri's eating/not eating during conversation.

[Slick Mongoose]

Some people complained about Kvothe's memory being too good. Clearly it isn't.

Unreliable narrator.

[Jerec]

Come on, as soon as I heard "Poet Killer" I thought of Ambrose. Remember early in NotW he's working on some bad poetry and Kvothe points out how bad it is? That would explain why Kvothe laughs at the idea of being a Poet Killer.

[Slick Mongoose]

If Skarpi = Bredon (= Manet), I think Kvothe would have recognised him.

[Gaston de Foix]

Slick Mongoose, on 28 March 2011 - 05:46 AM, said:

If Skarpi = Bredon (= Manet), I think Kvothe would have recognised him.

I think Skarpi= Bredon was meant to be tongue in cheek :0).

[Kosciuszko]

Manet, great Namer that he is, can hide his identity with little effort.

[AverageGuy]

Jurble, on 28 March 2011 - 12:50 AM, said:

I just thought of something - Kvothe failing at math.  Unless their math is waaaaaaaaaaaay far ahead of their time period, like even further than their chemistry seems to be, Kvothe fails at, at most, algebra? Or even basic calc.

When Elodin tries to get his class to guess where he'll throw the stone, the good-at-math people start drawing parabolas and doing calculations, presumably involving velocity, angles, force.  Elodin even gives force and direction as part of their clues.  This reads like basic calculus to me, the kind of stuff developed alongside Newtonian Mechanics.  It might just be a Cartesian plane (slightly anachronistic), but I don't think so.  Anyway, Kvothe can't follow along.  So he definitely fails at calc.  But he has to learn all sorts of equations for Sympathy, any decent equation's going to involve variables, so he has to be somewhat proficient at algebra.  And he has at least some knowledge of geometry.  In between those and calculus... he gets lost somewhere in trig?

[Slick Mongoose]

I think his problem is that he doesn't really find maths interesting. He finds sympathy interesting, and so learns enough maths to do it well.

[Guy Kilmore]

Thaykora, on 27 March 2011 - 10:58 PM, said:

[*]Kvothe kills Wilem. This may be the poet, or king. Chronicler does he not answer "Did you design it yourself?" when Kv asks about the cipher he will use. Instead he stares at the paper for a long while and changes the subject. Wilem says later that he fumbled his cipher with Lorren during admissions. Additionally, in one of the books a connection is made between working in the archives and eventually becoming a scribe.

Wilem is not a poet, nor is he royalty.  He comes from a rich merchant family.  There are two people in the books who are nobles and poets that we know of, Ambrose and Sim.  I think it is most likely Ambrose.

[Gaston de Foix]

thistlepong, on 28 March 2011 - 12:54 AM, said:

Kvothe the Arcane and Kvothe Kingkiller are two very different men, says.
Still, I've been questioning Vintas as well.

The Cthaeh does not explicitly mention killing.

“What can you tell me about the Chandrian?” I asked.
"Since you ask so sweetly, Cinder is the one you want. Remember him? White hair? Dark eyes? Did things to your mother, you know. Terrible. She held up well though. Laurian was always a trouper, if you'll pardon the expression. Much better than your father, with all his begging and blubbering."

"Why?" the Cthaeh echoed. "What a good question. I know so many whys. Why did they do such nasty things to your poor family? Why, because they wanted to, and because they could, and because they had a reason.  Why did they leave you alive? Why, because they were sloppy, and because you were lucky, and because something scared them away."

I think it's open enough to leave doubt.  A sort of classic structure would cast Cinder as the father and arrange a confrontation with him.  A careful reader would note the jibe Laurian aims at Arliden about his not having red hair.  But no, ultimately I'm not suggesting the Chandrian are not responsible.  Merely pointing out that we haven't seen the Seven do anything.  They're the big mystery; seems they'd be mysterious.

Looking it over the Cthaeh isn't obligated to answer questions or to tell the truth.  The unwavering faith of Felurian and Bast that it doesn't lie just means it would speak carefully.  It certainly appears to be a Cinder hater though.

[*]The wound that's not silver as NotW opens is a broken circle brand.

No evidence.  None.  It bugs me, that wound.  And it'd be component to the worst kind of tragedy.

It isn't really. Everything the Ctaeth says seems factually verifiable. The sly hints about Laurian's identity as Netalia etc are all true. The story works with Ctaeth as a malicious truth telling beast.

If Kvothe was rejected by the Edema Ruh in the manner you think (the broken circle) he would have been killed as well. That's the explanation Kvothe gives for the broken circle, the Ruh are killed and stamped with a broken circle.

[Rhaegar]

thistlepong, on 27 March 2011 - 12:05 PM, said:

Nice to have confirmation of a sort.  Thanks.  Do you happen to know if there's anything else in the appendix concerning the succession of days or months?
A quick search revealed this:

• (first day)
  
• (second day)
  
• Theden
  
• Shuden
  
• (fifth day)
  
• Hepten
  
• Caenin
  
• Felling
  
• Reaving
  
• Cendling
  
• Mourning

In the appendix the months are called Thaw, Equis, Caitelyn, Solace, Lannis, Reaping, Fallow and Dearth. The eleven days are called Luten, Shuden, Theden, Feochen, Orden, Hepten, Chaen, Felling, Reaving, Cendling and Mourning.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Dang it, why don't we get the Appendix in the American editions.