401 replies to this topic

[ShanRawr]

thistlepong, on 23 March 2011 - 11:41 AM, said:

-In that chapter, Winn tells Elodin not to bring the thunder when he comes back.  Is he talking about Kvothe?

I thought so too since it is one of the meanings Kvothe gives us of Maedre.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

Thinking about Bast's decision to do whatever he wants at the end of WMF since it'll all end up bad anyway - I think Bast will disappear for a bit in the next book and come back with a flower from the Cthaeh's tree for Kvothe.  He is a Prince of the Fae, after all, he may just end up killing the Sithe guarding the tree with his father's men.

grinachu, on 23 March 2011 - 08:40 AM, said:

I have three more observations from a long wait for a flight.

1. The two books are strange in how interchangeably Kote, Kvothe and the innkeeper are used in third person narrative. I haven't been able to work out the logic of it. I'm not talking about what people are calling him throughout the novels btw. I am talking about how the author refers to him. The strangest thing is midway through WMF, the author suddenly switches to calling him Kvothe and then abruptly reverts back to Kote. I am sure there is some logic there but I can't make head or tail of it.

3. The local priest is referred to in TNOW as Pater Leoden in TNOW, Abbe Grimes in WMF and later Abbe Leodin in WMF. Kvothe apparently. Kvothe apparently likes him reasonably well. "Grimes is a decent sort for a priest",  but later says: "And I don't get along with the local priest," Kvothe admitted". All very strange. Maybe the priest's name is Leoden Grimes, but this is something of a stretch since most other characters including Kvothe, don't have last names.

1. It's how Kvothe is thinking of himself.  He's feeling like Kvothe, and after he gets his ass kicked, he remembers he's Kote. He goes to his thrice-locked chest, opens the mundane locks, but his third magical lock won't open for him, because the chest doesn't recognize him as Kvothe - he's Kote.  His Name has changed.

3. I noticed that too.

Edited by Jurble, 23 March 2011 - 12:26 PM.

[Stego]

Jurble, on 23 March 2011 - 12:22 PM, said:

Thinking about Bast's decision to do whatever he wants at the end of WMF since it'll all end up bad anyway - I think Bast will disappear for a bit in the next book and come back with a flower from the Cthaeh's tree for Kvothe.  He is a Prince of the Fae, after all, he may just end up killing the Sithe guarding the tree with his father's men.

Ooooh, now THAT is a fascinating possibility. Good one, Jurble.

[aariafromarty]

I've noticed at least twice that Kvothe has been saved by the wind.  Once when sneaking into Ambrose's room, and once when a bandit sentry has him in his sights.  Think this is just deus ex machina or some sort of benefit from being able to say the Name of the Wind.  Maybe even his sleeping mind was doing calling the wind without him acknowledging it?  Which would mean if each ring on his hand represents a different Name, at the height of his power, Kvothe was a badass.

[Renasko]

Stego, on 23 March 2011 - 12:04 PM, said:

He's a Ginger, and he's not even singled out for that fact!

When the first reviews were coming out, didn't Aidan Moher openly wonder how a ginger kid could have such luck with the ladies?

[Gaston de Foix]

aariafromarty, on 23 March 2011 - 12:46 PM, said:

I've noticed at least twice that Kvothe has been saved by the wind.  Once when sneaking into Ambrose's room, and once when a bandit sentry has him in his sights.  Think this is just deus ex machina or some sort of benefit from being able to say the Name of the Wind.  Maybe even his sleeping mind was doing calling the wind without him acknowledging it?  Which would mean if each ring on his hand represents a different Name, at the height of his power, Kvothe was a badass.

I noticed this too and wondered. I discounted it in my head for three reasons. 1. Ir's good to have three pieces of data to base a theory on and there are only two instances we can point to 2. In the first, Ambrose room incident, the wind subsequently pushes him or slams him or something, does something counter-productive and painful. 3. every time we are shown naming we are shown how important finding the name of the wind and saying it is. For Kvothe to be able to manipulate wind without saying its name goes somewhat against the internal logic of the books. Have I convinced you

Totally agree that Kvothe having learned all those Names would be a badass. I think the last ring "the Nameless one", would be Kvothe discovering his own name or some other living person/living creature.

AverageGuy, on 23 March 2011 - 10:27 AM, said:

2.  In that case, they were talking about one of Elodin's guilders, a Namer.  So I think it's more like Naming has something to do with the moon.  It would explain why Iax wanted the moon in Faerie and why the old Knowers started a war when he halfway succeeded.  And even if it wasn't the case before he stole the moon, messing with the moon might've affected Namers after the fact.  

I completely agree with you about there being some relationship between the moon and Naming (and frankly I didn't even think about "lunacy").

one slight disagreement I read the passage as referring to all the occupants though of Crockery not just Alder Whin. "Elodin strolled up to a large desk where a young woman stood. "Why
isn't anyone outside, Emmie?" She gave him an uneasy smile. "They're too wild today, sir." (Pg. 308).

Maybe the movement of the moon has this effect on sympathists too? Elxa Dal asks about the synodic period of the moon at Kvothe's first admissions interview. It's hard to imagine there are so many potential namers at the university.

-In that chapter, Winn tells Elodin not to bring the thunder when he comes back. Is he talking about Kvothe? (Thistlepong). I think Whin has captured/recognised a part of Kvothe's Name. It certainly correlates to Maedre. I don't think it is the whole name though: Elodin makes a point of telling us how long and complicated the names of living creatures are.

[wolf spider]

Stego, on 23 March 2011 - 12:04 PM, said:

I don't understand that at all. I'm horribly ugly and I relate to heroes in stories all the time!

And I mean, come on! The standards in Kvothe's world have got to be low. He's a Ginger, and he's not even singled out for that fact! He should be stoned!

haha!



I like Jurble's idea about Bast bringing Kvothe a flower from the Cthaeh tree.

[Zizoz]

It would be a bad idea, though, wouldn't it? Once you've talked to the Cthaeh you can't do anything about it, but it's better not to give it the chance to mess things up.

[Slick Mongoose]

Wear ear plugs.

[Gaston de Foix]

Slick Mongoose, on 23 March 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:

Wear ear plugs.

I was thinking the same thing. But since it can see the future maybe it would just put giant posters up all over the place? What I find surprising is that someone hasn't killed the thing. I picture it as a giant chesire cat, grinning madly. I would just take some iron tipped arrows or something.

[AverageGuy]

grinachu, on 23 March 2011 - 01:07 PM, said:

one slight disagreement I read the passage as referring to all the occupants though of Crockery not just Alder Whin.

Yeah, you're right, sorry.  And you even had the passage there, ugh.  Sometimes I rely on my memory too much.

[Stego]

grinachu, on 23 March 2011 - 03:23 PM, said:

I was thinking the same thing. But since it can see the future maybe it would just put giant posters up all over the place? What I find surprising is that someone hasn't killed the thing. I picture it as a giant chesire cat, grinning madly. I would just take some iron tipped arrows or something.

Hmm. I pictured it as the tree itself, like a dryad.

[Maysek22]

There are a number of things I see having to happen in book 3 to get to the point where kvothe is kote at the waystone inn.
In no particular order

-kvothe has to travel again to fae - he has to meet bast somehow, probably when he's f*cking up the world letting scrael and such into it
-he has to rescue princess aria (auri i presume, and i also presume that the "sleeping barrow king" has somthing to do with the tunnels under the university, which could be construed as barrow like, plus massive kvothe exaggeration.
-kvothe has to kill an angel - or somthing angel like "I've killed men and things that were more then men, every one of them deserved it"(paraphrasing)
-kvothe has to kill a king - obvious
-kvothe has to get "expelled" from the university - some people believe this has happened already. I don't. Likely something to do with the secret entrence to the archives - "locks have never been much of a problem for me.  mores the pity"(paraphrasing) - or perhaps that "mores the pity" part could be about the 4 plate door or doors of stone IDK.
-kvothe has to design/make, buy, find or steal that chest of pure awsomeness that he cant open
-kvothe has to let the fae into the world "the war the scrael all of it is my fault"(paraphrasing)
-someone, possibly denna, is going to betray him.  I've always assumed it was denna b/c i dont like the cut of her jib, but i'm beginning to wonder if Sim is the betrayer, supporting the "poet killer" moniker

I"m sure there are many more things that have been forshadowed that have to happen next issue, those are off the top of my head.

On another topic, i think the whole oath to denna causing lack of use of kvothes good left hand is ridiculous personally.  The passage many use to back it up, him losing his grip on the mercenary who's kicking his ass reads differently to me.  My first impression was that he remembered he was kote, and let the guy break his grip.  My second impression, and the one i believe is correct is that he is just out of practice.  he tells bast that the beating was probably a good thing, b/c it reminded him of somthing he had forgotten.  To me that somthing is that you have to practice martial arts to remain good at it - thus he begins practincing his ketan to finish up the book...

can anyone else think of some prophetic things that have to be resolved b4 kvothe become kote? lets try to get the facts down here

[trickster]

Stego, on 23 March 2011 - 05:02 PM, said:

Hmm. I pictured it as the tree itself, like a dryad.

I think it's similar to a serpent (garden of Eden parallel?) cause Kvothe saw something "sinuous" in the tree.

Edited by trickster, 23 March 2011 - 05:14 PM.

[Gaston de Foix]

Maysek22, on 23 March 2011 - 05:09 PM, said:

There are a number of things I see having to happen in book 3 to get to the point where kvothe is kote at the waystone inn.
In no particular order

-kvothe has to travel again to fae - he has to meet bast somehow, probably when he's f*cking up the world letting scrael and such into it
-he has to rescue princess aria (auri i presume, and i also presume that the "sleeping barrow king" has somthing to do with the tunnels under the university, which could be construed as barrow like, plus massive kvothe exaggeration.
-kvothe has to kill an angel - or somthing angel like "I've killed men and things that were more then men, every one of them deserved it"(paraphrasing)
-kvothe has to kill a king - obvious
-kvothe has to get "expelled" from the university - some people believe this has happened already. I don't. Likely something to do with the secret entrence to the archives - "locks have never been much of a problem for me.  mores the pity"(paraphrasing) - or perhaps that "mores the pity" part could be about the 4 plate door or doors of stone IDK.
-kvothe has to design/make, buy, find or steal that chest of pure awsomeness that he cant open
-kvothe has to let the fae into the world "the war the scrael all of it is my fault"(paraphrasing)
-someone, possibly denna, is going to betray him.  I've always assumed it was denna b/c i dont like the cut of her jib, but i'm beginning to wonder if Sim is the betrayer, supporting the "poet killer" moniker

I"m sure there are many more things that have been forshadowed that have to happen next issue, those are off the top of my head.

On another topic, i think the whole oath to denna causing lack of use of kvothes good left hand is ridiculous personally.  The passage many use to back it up, him losing his grip on the mercenary who's kicking his ass reads differently to me.  My first impression was that he remembered he was kote, and let the guy break his grip.  My second impression, and the one i believe is correct is that he is just out of practice.  he tells bast that the beating was probably a good thing, b/c it reminded him of somthing he had forgotten.  To me that somthing is that you have to practice martial arts to remain good at it - thus he begins practincing his ketan to finish up the book...

can anyone else think of some prophetic things that have to be resolved b4 kvothe become kote? lets try to get the facts down here

He has to learn Naming. He has to resolve things with Maer Alveron, find the Amyr, obtain some sort of satisfaction or success in his quest against the Chandrian. Much to do, so little time.

Edited by grinachu, 23 March 2011 - 05:28 PM.

[Gaston de Foix]

Stego, on 23 March 2011 - 05:02 PM, said:

Hmm. I pictured it as the tree itself, like a dryad.

It's something that lives in the tree, not the tree itself. It can leave the tree.

[AverageGuy]

Stego, on 23 March 2011 - 05:02 PM, said:

Hmm. I pictured it as the tree itself, like a dryad.

A dryad-type Fae makes sense.  Kvothe sees something moving under the tree, and Bast says the Cthaeh can't leave the tree, which made me think the tree was some sort of prison.  But a dryad would have similar restrictions.

Maysek22, on 23 March 2011 - 05:09 PM, said:

On another topic, i think the whole oath to denna causing lack of use of kvothes good left hand is ridiculous personally.  The passage many use to back it up, him losing his grip on the mercenary who's kicking his ass reads differently to me.  My first impression was that he remembered he was kote, and let the guy break his grip.  My second impression, and the one i believe is correct is that he is just out of practice.  he tells bast that the beating was probably a good thing, b/c it reminded him of somthing he had forgotten.  To me that somthing is that you have to practice martial arts to remain good at it - thus he begins practincing his ketan to finish up the book...

There are five passages that make me believe something's wrong with Kvothe's left hand.

1) Failure to keep his grip on the soldier and further failure to break the soldier's grip.  My impression of what he'd forgotten was that he wasn't the Kvothe of the stories anymore.

2) Kvothe clumsily jamming a holly thorn deep into his thumb despite his often-remarked-upon "clever hands" but not really reacting.  Right after saying anyone with "two good hands" would be out helping with the harvest.  

3) When Bast says the flower of the Cthaeh's tree is a panacea, capable of curing any wound, Kvothe looks down at his hands and says he can see why that would be tempting.

4) When with the Adem, he meets the cook who lost the fingers of one hand, no longer able to fight as a redshirt.  The cook says something like, "I'm not the same person I was.  When I dream, I have two hands."  That read like foreshadowing to me.

5) When done with his tale for the night, Kvothe absentmindedly massages his left hand with his right.

I've said this before, but I don't believe it's a magical backlash.  Not Kvothe goes looking for Denna's patron and suddenly his hand stops working.  More like, Kvothe goes looking for Denna's patron and he runs into something very dangerous which coincidentally ends up resulting in some nerve damage.  There's actually a term for coincidence like this in Greek tragedy, though I don't remember what it is.  

But even if he doesn't hurt his hand when looking for Denna's patron, I still believe he hurts his hand somehow, which causes a loss of sensitivity and strength that may not lead to a total loss of use in the hand but does take away most of his abilities-- as a musician, as an artificer, and as a fighter.  Finally, this change to everything he is affects him in other ways, shatters his self-image, which is related to his will, which is his alar.  It would account for a lot of the changes we see in him.

Edited by AverageGuy, 23 March 2011 - 06:09 PM.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

Zizoz, on 23 March 2011 - 02:47 PM, said:

It would be a bad idea, though, wouldn't it? Once you've talked to the Cthaeh you can't do anything about it, but it's better not to give it the chance to mess things up.

But Bast doesn't care about it being a bad idea anymore. He wants his Reshi back. Chronicler basically convinces to just do whatever he wants.  

Imagine if you were the Cthaeh, if you saw a path where in you could get your freedom, what better way ever would have occurred than to set actions in motion wherein Kvothe loses his powers, and his apprentice happens to be a Faen Prince?

[Maysek22]

AverageGuy, on 23 March 2011 - 05:39 PM, said:

A dryad-type Fae makes sense.  Kvothe sees something moving under the tree, and Bast says the Cthaeh can't leave the tree, which made me think the tree was some sort of prison.  But a dryad would have similar restrictions.


There are five passages that make me believe something's wrong with Kvothe's left hand.

1) Failure to keep his grip on the soldier and further failure to break the soldier's grip.  My impression of what he'd forgotten was that he wasn't the Kvothe of the stories anymore.

2) Kvothe clumsily jamming a holly thorn deep into his thumb despite his often-remarked-upon "clever hands" but not really reacting.  Right after saying anyone with "two good hands" would be out helping with the harvest.  

3) When Bast says the flower of the Cthaeh's tree is a panacea, capable of curing any wound, Kvothe looks down at his hands and says he can see why that would be tempting.

4) When with the Adem, he meets the cook who lost the fingers of one hand, no longer able to fight as a redshirt.  The cook says something like, "I'm not the same person I was.  When I dream, I have two hands."  That read like foreshadowing to me.

5) When done with his tale for the night, Kvothe absentmindedly massages his left hand with his right.

I've said this before, but I don't believe it's a magical backlash.  Not Kvothe goes looking for Denna's patron and suddenly his hand stops working.  More like, Kvothe goes looking for Denna's patron and he runs into something very dangerous which coincidentally ends up resulting in some nerve damage.  There's actually a term for coincidence like this in Greek tragedy, though I don't remember what it is.  

But even if he doesn't hurt his hand when looking for Denna's patron, I still believe he hurts his hand somehow, which causes a loss of sensitivity and strength that may not lead to a total loss of use in the hand but does take away most of his abilities-- as a musician, as an artificer, and as a fighter.  Finally, this change to everything he is affects him in other ways, shatters his self-image, which is related to his will, which is his alar.  It would account for a lot of the changes we see in him.

You make some good points there sir. I'm still not convinced, but perhaps you will prove correct!
I feel that the story of kvothe is largely allegorical; The point isnt that kvothe is some "mary sue" or whatever, its that storytellers, especially autobiographical storytellers, often have the propensity for exaggeration - if you ever read rock biographies/autobiographies for example, the rock stars sleep with hundreds/thousands of women (possibly true), are always drunk/high on heroin/coke or whatever, but they NEVER have problems playing their instruments perfectly or preforming sexually - they're always what we perceive rockstars to be; perfect despite circumstance.  

I personally equate kvothe with Michael Jordan; Sublimely talented, at the top of his craft (naming/sympathy vs basketball) but fallible and far from perfect.  If MJ didnt practice all week he would miss a jumper or free throw at a key point of a game, much like kvothe with the soldiers. But people always talk about the game winning shots MJ has hit, or the clutch D or whatever - they rarely mention the missed shots, and defensive assignment, which i can assure you are many. Kvothe is a guy who hasn't practiced a martial art he was only moderately good at in 2 plus years.  He is not a superhero; he is a really smart but otherwise normal dude who is a good storyteller, and this hardened soldier kicked his out of practice ass. period. If Kvothe's hand was that hurt, i dont feel like he would have been "startled" when the soldier broke his grip; If i had a bum hand, tried to use it and failed i sure wouldn't be "startled" it would have been expected... meh just my long long winded 2 cents

[Curethan]

unJon, on 23 March 2011 - 07:15 AM, said:

@Curethan, book three is supposed to take us up to the present day framing story. If there is a second trilogy it is not about the backstory.

Cheers, thats what I suspected.