The Wise Man's Fear III [Spoilers and Speculation within]

[Gaston de Foix]

The evidence of unreliable narration is overwhelming, obvious, and impossible.

In the frame story, Kvothe all but admits to it more than once. Bast suggests and accepts it. Chronicler embraces it as part of his life's work. And the regulars at the Waystone bicker over details of stories constantly; and the Newarre community actively engages in an editing process regarding the freaky mercenary.

Kvothe never admits his narration is other than faithful. Bast does infer there is some padding, but out of desperate wishfulness rather than sincere belief. Chronicler accepts Kvothe's terms, but actually weeds out the lies from Oren Velciter's stories.

It's true the regulars bicker over the details of stories, but that's what makes Kvothe's narrative so fresh and refreshing. It's a first hand story. The truth behind the stories, the light behind the shadow. The whole premise of Chronicler convincing Kvothe is that the Chronicler is holding the truth hostage, people can only know of Kvothe's life what they have been told.

[lanceschaubert]

Perhaps. But given the Cthaeh's nature, it's also possible that the knowledge that the Masters have is nothing more than children's stories that they don't share because, well, they're children's stories.

True, but then again, that's not a withholding of information. That's a restraint of interest. I still think they know something...

I also think we are reading a tragedy, not a "hero's journey".

"Hero's Journey" as Campbell defines it (whom Rothfuss blatantly interacts with, both critiquing and reinventing), is a broad category encompassing both tragedy and comedy. The tragedy is: do they accept the task or reject it? Faust counts as a hero's journey, but he deals with the devil. Just because Kvothe's tragic doesn't mean he's not a hero, and just because "he knows what kind of story this is", implying a depressing one, doesn't mean he's not on a journey to be refined. It's obvious that book one was nigreddo (emptying him of the chaff and dross) and that book two was albedo (filling him with new information, power and insight). A hero's journey? Oh yes, but a sad one...

It's fantasy, an author can do whatever he wants.

True.

A barrow is a man-made mound or hill above a grave, usually reserved for the graves of royalty and other high nobility. A barrow king would be a king buried in a barrow, thus in this case either a spectre or ghost, or an undead.

Yes to the first, no to the second. A barrow king could be a king buried in a barrow. It could also be king over a barrow(s) as in a mass grave (which we have allusion to). It could also be the king of death/barrows - similar to Hades himself. This would fit some of the descriptions of the baddies in the book. Remember that just because two words are next to each other doesn't mean we know the relationship - we need context. "I've rescued sleeping princesses back from barrow kings" could be an undead king, or could be the king of the dead just as easily.

Someone mentioned how dennas song might be for the maer. Here is my thought on that: what if the maer believes lanre to be a hero. What if he believes the opposite of kvothe: chandrian are good amyr are evil. It would explain why dennas song is written the way it is. What if the maer and kvothe both ultimately end up at the stone doors but the maer believes oPening them will do good but kvothe realizes that they will release evil. It would explain the cthathe's "witty" remark.

Thoughts?

I've thought the same and like this train of thinking.

Bast cites "the creation of The Nameless," as one of the things the Cthaeh is responsible for, and the word appears when Kvothe draws the attention of whatever while they're gathering shadows. But I kind of wondered if it didn't have something to to with the Lackless rhymes.

Kvothe not learning a few names tops my list of literary fouls.

Lance, now that you've finished, are you more convinced book three will be rubedo? After reading your blog post I toyed with the idea that Stapes's ring was sort of a literary nod to citrinitas rather than an actual error.

To the first, I would quote this:

On his first hand he wore rings of stone,

Iron, amber, wood, and bone.

There were rings unseen on his second hand.

One was blood in a flowing band.

One of air all whisper thin,

And the ring of ice had a flaw within,

Full faintly shone the ring of flame,

and the final ring was without name. -- Sure I like Felurian as the last name, seeing as he might not like to share that detail (asking a namer to list their names is like asking how often they make love to their wives). Sure I like Denna (since she changes her name so often). But honestly, the only other time we find something "Nameless" is the Cthaeh.

To the second, I must clarify. Of course I know the children's rhyme, but simply because it's in the story doesn't mean it happened that way. Kvothe didn't burn down the entire city of Trebon, only part of it, and only on accident, contrary to what the active phrase "I burned" implies. Just because there's a rumor about his rings doesn't mean he has all of those - we've only come across iron, wood, and bone on his first hand, after all (though obviously a lot could change). What I mean is we have no indication that he becomes a namer in any formal sense of the word. We know he gets kicked out of the university fully (this he affirms at the end of book one concerning what Ambrose did to get him out), so no arcanum guilder (in one sense) means no namer. I simply mean that it's vague, not that he knows no names. I have my personal doubts as to how many names he truly acquires in the end (though I hope he has like twelve). I don't see the literary foul here... (or perhaps this was directed at the other person...)

As for the Rubedo, absolutely. I know Rothfuss didn't plan much, but he's pretty confident about the main storyline. As a framework, the alchemy gig makes more sense than anything else. That said, in two books we've heard "it was the sound of a man who was waiting to die" or something along those lines four times in a row at the beginning and at the end. Rubedo necessitates death in some sense to achieve reconciliation - some blood needs spilt. The questions remaining: whose blood? who's divided? what needs reconciled? and most importantly - how does kvothe need to change/grow up/get harder, better, faster, stronger?

& now for something completely different...

People have mentioned how Kv has no moral compass. That's not entirely true as some things piss him off, innocent girls being raped, harrassed (by Ambrose), or brigands terrorizing the roads for instance. These things consistently evoke DRASTIC violent responses from Kvothe, after the culmination of which he starts to Sympathize with the Amyr, not only for their battle against the Chandrian, but for the way they dole out justice. Some of you suspect hidden Amyr documents behind the wall. Others suspect Maer on the opposite side of the Amyr hunt, explaining Denna's song, and the facination with the lock-less box (parallel in mystery to the lock-less door in the library). Still others recognize that the most recent Amyr are human. I'll add to these that after the crazy show-down with the bandits, Kvothe's arms were covered with blood (Amyr tatoo, anyone?)

For your consideration: What if Kvothe's best chance of defeating the Chandrian and/or the Cthaeh (if you're in the crowd even considering that) was to find and join the Amyr?

[Barnes]

Apologies if this has been mentioned already, couldn't see it anywhere, I'm wondering if Kingkiller could be referring to Maer, he's mentioned as a King in the book, any thoughts?

[flare]

He is not mentionend as a King

"This was a man who, but for a twist of history, would now be king of all Vintas"

[lanceschaubert]

He is not mentionend as a King

"This was a man who, but for a twist of history, would now be king of all Vintas"

Yeah, but he's constantly referred to with "rich as the king of Vint." Kvothe's called the Arcane, but isn't Arcanum when he is. He could be called kingkiller without killing a literal king.

I've wondered about this myself.

[Thaykora]

I'm looking for opinions on this; I've included quotes from the relevant parts of the book, plus some additional details.

Ari and Auri, Auri and the Fae

After finding a ride out of Tarbean, Kvothe stops by Trapis' basement. I left some pieces out of this quote just to cut down on size, yet still set the scene. From the first book:

Trapis wasn’t there [...]Several grubby urchins stood around a bushel basket on the table, clutching winter apples. [...] None of them recognized me. [...] Just then Trapis came back, carrying several flat loaves of bread under one arm and a squalling child in the other. “Ari,” he called to one of the boys standing near the bushel basket. “Come help. We’ve got a new visitor and she needs changing.”

The boy hurried over and took the child out of Trapis’ arms. He lay the bread on the table next to the bushel basket and all the children’s eyes fixed on him attentively.

Questions: Why the similarity between Ari and Auri? Coincidence? I remember PR saying he cut down on the book to make sure there was no fluff. Did this get missed? Or is there a connection?

Wild speculation: Ari is Auri. Or perhaps the little girl that is brought in is Auri? One could argue that Auri has been to the Fae-world as there are a few justifications come to mind. 1.) Auri says in TNotW, "I wanted a piece of the moon, but blue-dragonfly-shine was as close as I could get." 2.)Elodin's advice to Kvothe about interacting with Alder Whin is nearly the same advice Kvothe gives Elodin about Auri up on the rooftops. This may just indicate that the same trauma happened to both of them, which could include venturing into the Fae, or even speaking with the Cthaeh while there. That would explain what drove them mad, why Auri seems to imply knowledge of the Cthaeh, and why everyone in the crockery hates a full moon.

If we reject the idea, we could simply say that the similarity in names is a coincidence, as Kvothe picked Auri's name. And Auri's talk about wanting the moon, and blue dragonfly-shine comes from just knowledge of stories she has heard.

[thistlepong]

Questions: Why the similarity between Ari and Auri? Coincidence? ... Or is there a connection?

In your example, the character Ari takes the child from Trapis so Trapis can deal with the bread; which he lays on the table. The children attend to Trapis, who proceeds to give them instructions.

The descriptive similarities between Ari and Auri begin and end at blond and barefoot. The girl who stays in the Half-Mast during Skarpi’s arrest is described as blond and barefoot as well.

The name Tam is used four times for four different characters over the course of the two books. There’s nothing to support they’re all the same person. Coincidence? Yes. Connection. No.

Rubedo necessitates death in some sense to achieve reconciliation - some blood needs spilt. The questions remaining: whose blood? who's divided? what needs reconciled?

Whose blood? The text suggests:

• A King - which is kind of traditional anyway
  
• Kvothe - willingnesss to shed blood for the school (he also fakes his own death)
  
• An /(angel)/ - from Chronicler's musing
  

Who is divided? (limited to more obvious binary pairs)

• Kvothe and Denna - their stories are parallell in more ways than I initially thought
  
• The Amyr and the Chandrian - 5000 year old conflict at the center of the story
  
• The Corners and the Fae
  

What needs reconciled? (limited to bitter partings)

• Jax and the Tinker (likely = The Corners and the Fae)
  
• Lanre and Selitos
  
• Meluan and Kvothe
  

The Cthaeh suggests that his best chance for killing the Chandrian is hooking up with the Amyr. Which should cause the response: "No, Kvothe! No!"

Apologies if this has been mentioned already, couldn't see it anywhere, I'm wondering if Kingkiller could be referring to Maer...?

He's in line for the throne of Vintas behind the prince regent, who died while Kvothe was on his way back from Ademre. While the folks between Jakis and Calanthis are dying off, and snotty Ambrose is all psyched, the obstacles between Roderic and Lerand, who shore up power marrying Meluan, number five or six, are also disappearing. Both of them, along with Baron Jakis, have to die for Ambrose to gain the throne of Vintas. Plenty of potential kings there.

What kind of magic do you think Denna uses?

I think Sygaldry and Naming, along with the scrollworked artifacts, the braids, and Kvothe's dream after the Chandrian /(attack)/ suggest the possibility of Yllish magic. It seems odd to spend words on it otherwise.

_{I looked these up:}

_{Blac - pale, shining, white (OE)}

_{Drossen - to abscond (Dutch)}

_{Tor - tower, hill, outcropping (many)}

[unJon]

Maer could easily work as the king that is killed, but first I expect that he'll need to actually be crowned King of Vintas.

[Gaston de Foix]

Whose blood? The text The Cthaeh suggests that his best chance for killing the Chandrian is hooking up with the Amyr. Which should cause the response: "No, Kvothe! No!"

He's in line for the throne of Vintas behind the prince regent, who died while Kvothe was on his way back from Ademre. While the folks between Jakis and Calanthis are dying off, and snotty Ambrose is all psyched, the obstacles between Roderic and Lerand, who shore up power marrying Meluan, number five or six, are also disappearing. Both of them, along with Baron Jakis, have to die for Ambrose to gain the throne of Vintas. Plenty of potential kings there.

I think Sygaldry and Naming, along with the scrollworked artifacts, the braids, and Kvothe's dream after the Chandrian /(attack)/ suggest the possibility of Yllish magic. It seems odd to spend words on it otherwise.

_{I looked these up:}

_{Blac - pale, shining, white (OE)}

_{Drossen - to abscond (Dutch)}

_{Tor - tower, hill, outcropping (many)}

I think the mere act of looking for the Amyr may be enough to bring about the disaster the Ctaeth wants, the Ctaeth seems to relish the thought of Kvothe finding the door to the Amyr through the Maer.

Sygaldry and Naming are very different. Not that you were implying similarity, but they can't be taken together to justify Yllish magic. Sygaldry is a counter-part to Sympathy rather than anything else, presumably by harnessing sympathetic forces in a permanent way. Not to say the workings of sygaldry aren't mysterious but there is nothing to suggest that it works simply by writing things down.

I admit to being a bit conflicted on Yllish magic. On the one hand, if it was successful it would make some kind sense of the Kvothe dream sequence of learning of knots and we do have some support for the idea that dreams teach us things (see Nina's dream of the pot). And there is scrollwork on the Loeclos box.

On the other hand, it doesn't make logical sense. The Yllish Empire was crushed by the boots of the Aturan Empire and if they had such a powerful magic at their command, they could just have written somewhere maybe the Emperor of Atur choke on a wishbone or something. Unless the Amyr wiped out the Yllish for the greater good? Hmm...

Plus there is no suggestion Denna's attempts to do magic are anything but obvious and ineffective. Every other magic system in the book has some logic to it. Writing things down in Yllish doesn't. Why should a knot make things real? And how does this interact with Naming and Shaping which are the two magical systems that are actually fully fleshed out and foreshadowed in the book?

In the language of Ergen which sounds vaguely like Anglo-Saxon.

Blac= Battle

Drossen Tor= Place.

[flare]

Tor is the German word for gate/gateway.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Flare,

The German word for "door" is "Die Tur".

[Decius]

Flare,

The German word for "door" is "Die Tur".

True, but "das Tor" does indeed mean gate and/or large door. It is also often used for doors that are publicly accessible even if they are doorsized (example: Friedhofstor - graveyard gate, Kirchentor - church door).

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Decius,

But "Tor" in English is usually a "Rocky hill or peak".

[Tears of Lys]

/snippy

I read and reread NotW with a healthy skepticism. Somewhere partway through WMF I lost it. By the time I reached the parts folk feel are tedious, I was swept up. Tarbean seemed to drag the first time through and I think I slept through it when we listened to it. But it was densely packed; and the same holds true for the Fae and Ademre in WMF. They seem overlong and overwrought, but there's a lot to digest and sort through.

I agree. It's almost as though you're purposely lulled into a kind of lethargy so that you miss the important bits. :P

[lanceschaubert]

Yeah, and Tor could be a soft "Th", implying "Thor." the reality is, we're grasping at straws with this one.

Whose blood? The text suggests:

• A King - which is kind of traditional anyway
  
• Kvothe - willingnesss to shed blood for the school (he also fakes his own death)
  
• An /(angel)/ - from Chronicler's musing
  

Who is divided? (limited to more obvious binary pairs)

• Kvothe and Denna - their stories are parallell in more ways than I initially thought
  
• The Amyr and the Chandrian - 5000 year old conflict at the center of the story
  
• The Corners and the Fae
  

What needs reconciled? (limited to bitter partings)

• Jax and the Tinker (likely = The Corners and the Fae)
  
• Lanre and Selitos
  
• Meluan and Kvothe
  

The Cthaeh suggests that his best chance for killing the Chandrian is hooking up with the Amyr. Which should cause the response: "No, Kvothe! No!"

He's in line for the throne of Vintas behind the prince regent, who died while Kvothe was on his way back from Ademre. While the folks between Jakis and Calanthis are dying off, and snotty Ambrose is all psyched, the obstacles between Roderic and Lerand, who shore up power marrying Meluan, number five or six, are also disappearing. Both of them, along with Baron Jakis, have to die for Ambrose to gain the throne of Vintas. Plenty of potential kings there.

I would add these to the lists:

Whose blood? The text suggests:

• A King - which is kind of traditional anyway
  
• Kvothe - willingnesss to shed blood for the school (he also fakes his own death) "The Bloodless"
  
• An /(angel)/ - from Chronicler's musing
  
• Bast - from his substitution-healing (note how the milk is pink, a mix of white and red pointing toward the rubedo. He's taking The Bloodless' Blood
  
• Denna - the one true weakness Kvothe has
  

Who is divided? (limited to more obvious binary pairs)

• Kvothe and Denna - their stories are parallell in more ways than I initially thought
  
• The Amyr and the Chandrian - 5000 year old conflict at the center of the story
  
• The Corners and the Fae
  
• The Various Races & Empires
  
• The University & The Uneducated
  
• The Rich & The Poor (Tarbean, Severen)
  
• The Myth & The true Story
  

What needs reconciled? (limited to bitter partings)

• Jax and the Tinker (likely = The Corners and the Fae)
  
• Lanre and Selitos
  
• Meluan and Kvothe
  
• Denna & Kvothe (this counts for both as the major romantic interest)
  
• Ruh & the World
  
• Both stories need to collide - the myth and the truth are interacting, dancing back and forth through the Waystone.
  
• 
  

Anyone still interested, I'm thinking about writing a big alchemy post in the next few weeks. Collecting various symbols down in the comments here. I've got one person for sure who's big into the hunt right now, even though she's sick.

[thistlepong]

Yeah, and Tor could be a soft "Th", implying "Thor." the reality is, we're grasping at straws with this one.

I’ll say I’m 90% certain that the Blac of Drossen Tor took place in or around Severen based on grasping at those straws.

[lanceschaubert]

I’ll say I’m 90% certain that the Blac of Drossen Tor took place in or around Severen based on grasping at those straws.

see, I like that. I went back and read yours. dunno how I missed it. I meant the others, but yours i like alright. Shine of the Fleeing Mounds? White of the Absconding Towers? What're you getting at?

[Zizoz]

Perhaps Drossen Tor is a tor either to or from which someone absconded?

[wrathofdog]

I've been following these threads; they've been excellent. Good catch with Kvothe's mom, especially. And, of course, unmasking Manet.

I wanted to share this review that I stumbled upon, which sums up my feelings on The Wise Man's Fear fairly well.

I'll quote part of it here:

Kvothe, up to this point, is cunning and clever, scraping by on wits and bailing wire, literally having to pawn nearly everything he owns at one point or another to get by. He's bad with women. He's hopelessly chasing some dreadful bitch who will never settle down with him. He's always broke. He's not much of a physical combatant. He has no real influence. His reputation is smoke and mirrors. He's talented, but clearly not all-knowing, and he has weaknesses. His contemporaries often are better than him at certain subjects.

I loved this.

And then... he runs off with Felurian.

...

For those of you who have not read the book and do not care if you are spoiled - Felurian is basically a fairy of immense power and unspeakable beauty. She is irresistible to men. For ages, she has seduced them and either exhausted them to death or driven them completely mad with her affection.

In short, she should, by any measure, have made short work of a 16 year old virgin. No matter how much latent arcane talent he had.

...

So, not only does he repeatedly bed, then magically subdue, then resist the irresistible charm of the most beautiful creature any man could hope to encounter, but this is how he loses his virginity.

Go ahead, I'm waiting for the Chuck Norris joke.

Sums up my feelings while reading the Felurian segment.

Also, I may catch flak for this, but I really didn't like the Adem society. I get that Rothfuss is a feminist and everything; just about every single female character in the books is Strong, Independent, Beautiful (and wants to have sex with Kvothe), but the Adem were simply too much. Not only are the woman all beautiful, but they're also better fighters than the men for some vague reason and they're positive that men are completely irrelevant to their society because fatherhood is a ridiculous barbarian myth. And, of course, they all want to have sex with Kvothe. It broke the immersion for me; in a world in which even the magic seems realistic, the Adem were just too absurd. Don't they have farm animals that they have to breed? How could they trace the history of their swords back thousands of years, but never have noticed the correlation between sex and pregnancy? If this was Xena: Warrior Princess, I wouldn't have batted an eye, but Rothfuss-World usually makes more sense than this.

And then, as soon as Kvothe leaves the Adem, who does he run into but some rapists! Of course, he murders them all, painfully, except for one guy who lives long enough to taunt one of the kidnapped girls, so Kvothe and the girl take turns torturing him before leaving him to die of an agonizing gut wound.

At this point, I'm just embarrassed for Rothfuss. It's like he took one too many Womens' Studies classes in college and now he's trying to rebuke the oppressive patriarchy through a self-insert Mary-Sue fantasy. And then, Kvothe gets the kidnapped girls back to town, where one of the townsmen suggests that they were partially at fault for their kidnapping. So Kvothe breaks his arm and leaves him puling in the street, exposing him for the weak coward that he is. Jesus, we get it, Rothfuss.

Apart from the preachy segments, though, I thoroughly enjoyed the book. The Maer in particular was a great character; waiting for the birds to start dying had me almost literally on the edge of my seat. Elodin's classes were a delight to read. Kvothe's increasingly casual use of malfeasance and general moral abdication (apart from where the mistreatment of women is concerned) is a fascinating turn to the story. Apparently unlike many of you, I really like Denna's appearances; she is perhaps the most sympathetic and interesting character, imo.

Anyway, these were my thoughts upon finishing the book.

[thistlepong]

_{I hesistate to get drawn into this again...}

_{Don't they have farm animals that they have to breed?}

_{They do. Kvothe asks the same thing. Penthe says they are not like animals. Explained? Yes. Poorly explained? Probably?}

_{The Levinshir scenes were terrifying. Kvothe is not like us. Still, it's difficult to fault him for wanting to break the kid's arm. If you were kidnapped and raped and the kid said you were asking for it, you probably wouldn't begrudge some ginger vigilante snapping his ulna.}

I admit to being a bit conflicted on Yllish magic.

Why would Atur crush Yll so thoroughly?

The knot magic isn’t well supported, but its possible presence on the Loeclos Box and the Thrice Locked Chest lends heft. The threads are peppered with examples of how and when it might be working, along with hints that Denna might be using magic(s.) Without running them down in a perfect withering barrage I probably couldn’t begin to convince anyone. It’s a feeling. Anyway, it wasn’t enough since he has her in that chest, now ;)

I think the mere act of looking for the Amyr may be enough to bring about the disaster the Ctaeth wants, the Ctaeth seems to relish the thought of Kvothe finding the door to the Amyr through the Maer.

Interesting. I do think Kvothe's defining, refining, moment comes when he's caught between the Seven and the Amyr. If the tricked a demon/killed an angel thing bears out, it does so there. It also moves him into the space he's in now.

What're you getting at?

You're asking me to show my work? Here's the non-speculative stuff.

As Grin pointed out Blac meant battle in Skarpi’s story. Nonetheless it also meant shining. An explosive word like Tor requires some diligence; thanks to Flare and Decius more than I thought. Ultimately though, a tor is a tor. And the Sheer is a tor; and sheer once meant shining. It’s also proximate to a tor through which one might abscond, or have absconded.

Incidentally it elegantly gives you at least half the symbols you’re looking for all in one place along with the mass grave reified by the more recent fire at its base. Though I kind of doubt you’ll get the massive reverberating payoff it looks like you’re hoping for. I think that illustrates the value of grasping at straws.

A poster called alekhia wrote this in the first thread and it’s informed my understanding of the story:

In book two, the adem call the chandrian the "rhinta".

The flowers of the ctheah are called "rhinna".

Also, in both books, it has been mentioned that the "massive stone doors" that lead to the archives at the university are engraved with the words "Vorfelan Rhinata Morie"

The Chaendrian consume the rhinna, the panacea, hence immortality.

To be honest I was willing to let the lexicography lie until I read Rothfuss say he’d punch T.S. Eliot in the mouth. I have no idea how the denna/dennais/denner/dennerling coincidence informs the story, but it probably does.

• Why does every story contain seven cities and one city instead of eight cities?
  
• Can we go all St Augustine on the Cthaeh and note that the possible is not the actual, that it’s perhaps prescient but not infallible?
  
• Tehlu’s choice of the path is grim. There's no carrot. How does that inspire a religion?
  
• Saicere's 31st owner died at Drossen Tor. So it was made like 500 years before that? Jurble's definitely better than Kvothe at math.