423 replies to this topic

[Winter's Knight]

Kittykatknits, on 08 December 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

I can see where you are coming from, not sure if I'm in 100% agreement though. I don't mind them either, but I have stopped reading other fantasy because, after awhile, I felt as if I was reading the exact same story over again.

I'm fine with Jon/Dany happening, as long as Martin writes it well and I have no doubt that he could. By big hangup over it as that I still don't see the foreshadowing that I've been told is there. The flower on the wall giving off a sweet smell doesn't seem like enough for me. But, perhaps its my reading skills at play here.

Waiting for PatrickStormborn or WK to come out and correct me on the above here.

The blue flower is obviously a rose Kits.

Symbolically: In some cultures, blue roses are traditionally associated with royal blood, and thus the blue rose can also denote regal majesty and splendor. In Chinese folklore, the blue rose signifies hope against unattainable love.

Furthermore, this is the only vision that has an olfactory detail: the rose fills the air with sweetness.

Then of course there is the wording:

Quote

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpsestood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

In my opinion, it seems to symbolise her three mounts: one to bed (obviously Drogo, since Martin disagrees with my personal thoughts on how this is just as likely to be the mount she dreads), and the next two.

But Patrick has a better grasp on this than I.

[NotSoSilentSister]

My problem with Jon/Dany is not that I think such a couple would be cliché per se (in fact, I can't even think of a an already existing compareable fictional couple right now; many people bristle at the notion of pairing the ostensibly most heroic guy with the ostensibly most sought after woman, but since I don''t think Jon is necessarily more heroic than Davos or Sam or Mance and Dany's desireability is hardly her defining feature, I have less of a problem with that) - I just fear that it might be entangled with a lot of other plot developments that I would find very cliché (eg. Jon Starkaryian, Dany as Nissa2.0 and such things).

There are three potential forces that might pull Dany and Jon together:

a) politics: only works if Jon's true lineage becomes common knowledge. I don't want that to happen, so I'm of course against a Jon/Dany marriage based on political considerations. And yes, Jon Starkaryan, the hidden heir who saves the day and takes the throne would be horribly cliché in my eyes. Let him save the day (in collaboration with a lot of others), but keep him off the throne for the sake of the old goods and new.

prophecy: I would hate that too, because I hate the idea of Jon and Dany slavishly executing their respective prophecies. I want their heroism to be motivated by a genuine concern for the common good, not because they are f'cking chosen ones. A rehash of the original AA/Nissa-Nissa story would be the very definition of clichéed for me.

c) genuine attraction: as a member of the apparent minority of fans who are equally fond of both Jon and Dany, I could actually see them growing to genuinely like each other - but it think it would take quite some time and I'm not sure there will be enough opportunity for them to interact with each other to plausibly and organically develop such a relationship. But who knows... I didn't think Martin would ever make me like Jaime or Theon either. He's a f'cking wizard.

While my objections to a) and are mainly ideologically motivated (I don't like what such plot developments would say about the importance of free will and the importance of bloodlines), c) is an objection on purely aesthetic grounds. It's the only option in which a Jon-Dany-pairing could feature under the subheading "romance" and I just don't like underdeveloped romances and would rather have none at all than a half-hearted one. So far Martin has not developed any plausible attraction between Jon and Dany (which would necessitate having them interact with each other in some way), so I remain sceptical for the time being.

I would probably okay with it, under a following conditions:
a) it doesn't lead to marriage
it doesn't lead to AA/NissaNissa
c) it's not rushed if based on genuine affection
d) it's not sold as a romance if based on mere physical attraction

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

Lady Sansa Stark, on 05 December 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

Eeeeehm, highborn doesn't differentiate between firstborns or thirdborns. Besides, Aegon came before Jon, so then Jon is the secondborn son of Rhaegar, who was the grandson of a secondborn son whose father was a fourthborn son of a fourthborn son. Ya know.

Yeah, I forgot about Aegon. But if Aegon is dead, then Jon is still first in line. And how direct a descendant you are is important - the blood of the first born (or if he dies, the next born) is the family line. Dany is insignifcant when you consider Jon (if he's true born). Jon is the heir, and I think this makes him higher born as he is more close to the most direct descendant.

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

Winter, on 05 December 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

They are both born directly from the royal line. They both carry the Prince/Princess title. For example: Prince William and Princess Anne are both equal in birth and rank, even though William is much closer than Anne is to the throne.

But the royal line has moved past Dany now, to Rhaegars children. It's just semantics, but. My original point was in vexing whatshisface about him saying Jon was a lowborn slack jaw.

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

PatrickStormborn, on 05 December 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

Dany was born as the Princess of Dragonstone and she is now the rightful Targaryen heir. She is far more highborn than a dead bastard at the Wall. Which is, technically, all that Jon is. Jon gave up any claim he may have when he swore his vows.

Perhaps I was wrong to include her position as Queen of Meereen, although it certainly shows that she is FAR higher than Jon by her own making. She didn't just rely on her birthrights.

Gods this is a load if wind. You obviously arn't interested in sense. Jon was born about the same time as Dany, and if Aegon was dead, he was born the rightful heir. That he took the black afterwards again does not affect his birth and the lofty height of it.

For what it's worth, Rhaegar, whose heir is the one entitiled to the throne (Aegon or Jon), seems to have specifically wanted Jon to go the Wall. From what it reads, it sound like Rhaegar and Lyanna wanted Ned to send him there, when he was of age. And Rhaegar believed he would then become the Prince who was Promised, a great King to lead the world to rights. I do not think Rhaegar's dying words were, "Please, my little sister, she must have everything because she's more highborn than mine own children and Patrick is right."

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

PatrickStormborn, on 05 December 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

If that's shallow, I have no problems with it whatsoever. Their relationship reads as being very healthy for Dany IMO.

Anyway, Jon's two "romantic interests" (Val and Ygritte) both show him to be at least as shallow as Dany. He likes Ygritte because of her personality, but he spends a fair amount of time thinking about her appearance in his chapters. His relationship with Ygritte is certainly comparable to Dany's with Drogo, although I hope we can all agree that Dany's was far more dangerous and sinister, and does not in any way reflect her future sexual preferences. With Val, his attraction to her is pretty much purely on a physical level, and closely parallels the relationship between Dany and Daario.

Jon has never been in a relationship with Val, however.

And Ygritte WAS a relationship, that developed over time. Jon pretty much fell in love. Physical attraction is just a perk, what counts is that you fall in love with someone before you sleep with them, otherwise you get to the shallow end of the relationship pool...

The issue with Dany is that she is sleeping with Daario for sexual pleasure rather than to build an actual sort of relationship with him. Or that's the way I see it. It makes her prone to be promiscuous, which she no doubt will be when she's older. Not a pleasant trait for a woman who thinks people must respect her unconditionally...

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

The Idiots Lantern, on 05 December 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

Unless Rheagar made Lyanna his second wife in secret, then the laws of the land apply to Jon like they apply to everyone else. A bastard born to unwed parents has no standing in Westeros, no matter how important those parents are.

There would have been witnesses. I don't think you can actually have a wedding without them.//./.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Boromir-Bloodstorm, on 09 December 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

Jon has never been in a relationship with Val, however.

And Ygritte WAS a relationship, that developed over time. Jon pretty much fell in love. Physical attraction is just a perk, what counts is that you fall in love with someone before you sleep with them, otherwise you get to the shallow end of the relationship pool...

Jon falls gradually for Ygritte after he had already started sleeping with her, but it's a bit of a red herring anyway - it's not as if he had all that much choice in the matter to begin with.

Quote

The issue with Dany is that she is sleeping with Daario for sexual pleasure rather than to build an actual sort of relationship with him. Or that's the way I see it. It makes her prone to be promiscuous, which she no doubt will be when she's older. Not a pleasant trait for a woman who thinks people must respect her unconditionally...

Poppycock. Losts of people like sleeping around in their youth and then prove perfectly capable of settling into stable monogamous longterm relationships. It's called "sowing your wild oats".  

Take Tyrion for instance. That's certainly one promiscuous little guy who sleeps around a lot, yet we buy into the idea that he would have been capable of being faithful to Tysha or Shae. Occasionally enjoying casual sex based on nothing but physical attraction and the desire to build sustainable relationships based on genuine affection is apparently no contradiction for Tyrion - why would it be for Dany?

[Ingelheim]

Boromir-Bloodstorm, on 09 December 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

Jon has never been in a relationship with Val, however.

And Ygritte WAS a relationship, that developed over time. Jon pretty much fell in love. Physical attraction is just a perk, what counts is that you fall in love with someone before you sleep with them, otherwise you get to the shallow end of the relationship pool...

The issue with Dany is that she is sleeping with Daario for sexual pleasure rather than to build an actual sort of relationship with him. Or that's the way I see it. It makes her prone to be promiscuous, which she no doubt will be when she's older. Not a pleasant trait for a woman who thinks people must respect her unconditionally...

I would love to see a Jon/Val relationship

And yes, Dany is young and a teenager, and Daario is a atractive guy, a "bad" guy. She wants, like all the girls as young as her, a man who makes her feel like a woman.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Ingelheim, on 09 December 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

I would love to see a Jon/Val relationship

And yes, Dany is young and a teenager, and Daario is a atractive guy, a "bad" guy. She wants, like all the girls as young as her, a man who makes her feel like a woman.

I think the bad guy thing is another bit of red hering.

Girls want desireable guys who make them feel desireable themselves (I would not equate "feeling like a woman" to "feeling desireable" - there's a lot more and sometimes quite a bit less to it). That is most easily accomplished if the guy in question is attractive and passionate.

Jorah is certainly very passionate, but he's not very attractive.
Hizard is sufficiently attractive, but evidently not very into Dany (She remarks that he would be handsome enough, but he lacks Daario's passion).
Quentin rates a resounding meh on both accounts.

Considering those alternatives, I don't really fault Dany for turning to Daario.

[Ingelheim]

NotSoSilentSister, on 09 December 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

I think the bad guy thing is another bit of red hering.

Girls want desireable guys who make them feel desireable themselves (I would not equate "feeling like a woman" to "feeling desireable" - there's a lot more and sometimes quite a bit less to it). That is most easily accomplished if the guy in question is attractive and passionate.

Jorah is certainly very passionate, but he's not very attractive.
Hizard is sufficiently attractive, but evidently not very into Dany (She remarks that he would be handsome enough, but he lacks Daario's passion).
Quentin rates a resounding meh on both accounts.

Considering those alternatives, I don't really fault Dany for turning to Daario.

But Dany knows that all the men think of her; she is attractive and intelligent (IMO, of course). I don't like her but I'm sure that Daario is going to betray her.

To me, Daario and Val have the same purpose in their respective plot: they are the second love interest for Jon and Dany.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Ingelheim, on 09 December 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

But Dany knows that all the men think of her; she is attractive and intelligent (IMO, of course). I don't like her but I'm sure that Daario is going to betray her.

Yet Hizdar apparently considers the task of bedding her a chore. Daario might end up betraying Dany - and somehow I suspect Dany wouldn't even be too surprised about it; she does entertain the notion in Dance - but at least he can make a convincing case that he's really into sleeping with her.

[The Annazon]

Erudain, on 06 December 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

Well it's true that Jon is currently a Bastard....but if we go that way, then when Dany was born (technically speaking) she was princess of nothing since her family lawfully lost the right to the throne due to conquest rights.
The same could be said of her currently being "Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Breaker of Shackles/Chains, Queen of Meereen"...but not heir to the throne of westeros nor princess of dragonstone.

Actually she is in line for the throne, as Robert, Stannis,and Renly were in line for the throne before her anyway.However I am not sure if she comes before or after Sherieen and Myrcella.

[Faint]

Ingelheim, on 09 December 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

To me, Daario and Val have the same purpose in their respective plot: they are the second love interest for Jon and Dany.

It may be so, but I ask you: Why does Daenerys keep drawing the short end of the stick?

With the exception of the mystical animal category, in which they both probably draw in any case, Daenerys always seems to get the lesser tools. Inferior setting, cardboard villains, terrible sidekicks and then, in the most egregious injustice, one Daario Naharis. Honestly, Val is the far more fascinating character, and she would be so even if it turned out she was mute.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Faint, on 13 December 2012 - 01:00 AM, said:

It may be so, but I ask you: Why does Daenerys keep drawing the short end of the stick?

With the exception of the mystical animal category, in which they both probably draw in any case, Daenerys always seems to get the lesser tools. Inferior setting, cardboard villains, terrible sidekicks and then, in the most egregious injustice, one Daario Naharis. Honestly, Val is the far more fascinating character, and she would be so even if it turned out she was mute.

So Jon will look so much better when it finally happens?

[willy york]

i seriously doubt jon and dany end up together.  jon has claim to nothing really while dany marries only for power.  dany is only attracted to barbarian men.

[Bushido]

Lady Sansa Stark, on 22 November 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

Oh no, most people are reaaaaaally serious about their shippings. Robb and Sansa are shipped as well for example. I haven't seen it here yet, but seriously, Tumblrpeople are sometimes even crazier than we here.

Show fans ship Jon/Sansa. It's unbelievable

[Nausicaä]

Bushido, on 13 December 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

Show fans ship Jon/Sansa. It's unbelievable

Please, book fans have been shipping Jon and Sansa before the show came along

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Bushido, on 13 December 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

Show fans ship Jon/Sansa. It's unbelievable

Oh I can understand that. Then I can understand Robb and Sansa as well. They look so beautiful together..

But, on a serious note.. I mean, shipping them for real? Neeeeh.

[Scipio Africanus]

Nausicaä, on 13 December 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

Please, book fans have been shipping Jon and Sansa before the show came along

While I doubt they'll ever be together it does still beat Sansan, Tyrsan or any "san" which involves a teenage girld hooking up with some smelly old guy more then twice her age...