403 replies to this topic

[AverageGuy]

Old thread here.  

I'm leaning toward Ash=Cinder at this point.  Though Bredon seemed to fit pretty well.

Okay, go.

Edited by AverageGuy, 15 April 2011 - 09:52 PM.

[wrathofdog]

I have to wonder if Denna doesn't know who she's working for.  It would explain why she hasn't left Ash yet; Denna doesn't seem like the type of girl who would tolerate physical abuse, but what if Ash/Cinder has told her that she'll be killed if she leaves, knowing what she does about the Chandrian?  Denna would realize that even her ordinary tactic of leaving in the middle of the night would be useless in that scenario.

Also, she seemed fairly receptive to the idea that it was the Chandrian who committed the massacre in Trebon in the first book.  In TWMF, however, she is surprisingly scornful towards Kvothe when he implies that the Chandrian are more than mythical.  Methinks the lady doth protest too much?


Also, this popped up a couple threads back, and struck me as rather ominous.

kingkiller said:

A dark thought I have always had is that Denna has something to do with the Chandrian. I remember one of the lines from that song mentioned in TNOTW that has a lyric going something like this:

See a girl pale as snow
Easy come easy go...

that pretty much sounds like her to me. Is she thousands of years old? Is she Lyra?

I don't remember that specific verse, but if it's legit, it could have some fairly grim implications.  The song lyric does seem to match Denna rather uncannily (though I doubt she's actually Lyra).

Edited by wrathofdog, 13 April 2011 - 12:52 AM.

[Ski the Swift]

wrathofdog, on 13 April 2011 - 12:51 AM, said:

I have to wonder if Denna doesn't know who she's working for.  It would explain why she hasn't left Ash yet; Denna doesn't seem like the type of girl who would tolerate physical abuse, but what if Ash/Cinder has told her that she'll be killed if she leaves, knowing what she does about the Chandrian?  Denna would realize that even her ordinary tactic of leaving in the middle of the night would be useless in that scenario.

Also, she seemed fairly receptive to the idea that it was the Chandrian who committed the massacre in Trebon in the first book.  In TWMF, however, she is surprisingly scornful towards Kvothe when he implies that the Chandrian are more than mythical.  Methinks the lady doth protest too much?


Also, this popped up a couple threads back, and struck me as rather ominous.



I don't remember that specific verse, but if it's legit, it could have some fairly grim implications.  The song lyric does seem to match Denna rather uncannily (though I doubt she's actually Lyra).

Maybe, maybe not. It is mentioned that Bast has met Denna, you would think that would have taken place recently. I'm sure someone, be it Bast or Kvothe, would of noticed, mentioned or let slip that she is more.

Edited by Ski the Swift, 13 April 2011 - 01:19 AM.

[Alytha]

2 questions:

1) When's the next one coming out?
2) Could Bast be Kvothe's and Felurian's son? (I'll have to reread Name of the Wind, I can't remember all the details anymore...)

[thistlepong]

wrathofdog, on 13 April 2011 - 12:51 AM, said:

I have to wonder if Denna doesn't know who she's working for.  It would explain why she hasn't left Ash yet; Denna doesn't seem like the type of girl who would tolerate physical abuse, but what if Ash/Cinder has told her that she'll be killed if she leaves, knowing what she does about the Chandrian?  Denna would realize that even her ordinary tactic of leaving in the middle of the night would be useless in that scenario.

Also, she seemed fairly receptive to the idea that it was the Chandrian who committed the massacre in Trebon in the first book.  In TWMF, however, she is surprisingly scornful towards Kvothe when he implies that the Chandrian are more than mythical.  Methinks the lady doth protest too much?
I don't remember that specific verse, but if it's legit, it could have some fairly grim implications.  The song lyric does seem to match Denna rather uncannily (though I doubt she's actually Lyra).

See a woman pale as snow?
Silent come and silent go.
What's their plan?  What's their plan?
Chandrian.  Chandrian.

-Denna

In Skarpi's "Lanre and the Creation War," Lanre himself confirms that Lyra is dead; it's his motivating force.  In Shehyn's rendition, "Pale Alenta brings the blight," so given the absense of vegetation whithering around her, Denna's probably not the pale one...

I wasn't surprised by Denna's reaction.  She asked him three times what he thought of her song.  She entertained three different criticisms before he brought his pet obsession into it.  And she'd been travelling for a year researching her version.  Kvothe's insufferable.  It was in character.

She almost certainly knows who she's working for.  In the mundane case, her patron is allowing her to see the world, financing instruments and research, and may be providing access to training otherwise only available at the univesity; she says, in fact, that she knows things even the masters don't.  Kvothe is arguably enduring beatings for less and paying for the privilege.  If it's Cinder, it's at least unlikely she's missed it.

[Rhaegar's Son]

I looked through the prior three threads again, and despite all the comments about internal inconsistencies, I don't think a single one is mentioned.

Could those who are so eager to bring them into the conversation please begin listing them.  I am quite curious to determine if any of these may hold useful pieces of information about our narrator and/or the story.

[thistlepong]

Rhaegar, on 13 April 2011 - 07:35 AM, said:

I looked through the prior three threads again, and despite all the comments about internal inconsistencies, I don't think a single one is mentioned.

Could those who are so eager to bring them into the conversation please begin listing them.  I am quite curious to determine if any of these may hold useful pieces of information about our narrator and/or the story.

I'm eager to see them pointed out as well.

One's been pointed out, and I'll add one.

• Stapes's ring:
  

  Stapes gives Kvothe a silver ring.  Kvothe returns a gold ring.  Howl!

• The period between Hallowfell and the murder of Kvothe's parents.
  

  Essentially, there's missing time.  The leave Abenthy in Hallowfell in the spring, months pass, the troupe is murdered, Kvothe spends the summer in the woods and ends up in Tarbean in the fall.  Between four months and a year are missing or inserted.

  _{The timeline here is pretty solid, provided span by span, with months noted.  Howl!}

[wrathofdog]

Rhaegar, on 13 April 2011 - 07:35 AM, said:

I looked through the prior three threads again, and despite all the comments about internal inconsistencies, I don't think a single one is mentioned.

Could those who are so eager to bring them into the conversation please begin listing them.  I am quite curious to determine if any of these may hold useful pieces of information about our narrator and/or the story.

There's also the issue of Kvothe reading Chronicler's book about Draccuses during his first visit to the Archives, and Chronicler telling Kvothe that he was already a legend when Chronicler attended the University.

So either Chronicler attended the University very late in life after a career as an author (and iirc it's only been a few years since Kvothe left the University, so Chronicler's term there would have had to have been pretty short), or we have a distortion of the time continuum.

Edited by wrathofdog, 13 April 2011 - 08:30 AM.

[Who's on Third]

thistlepong, on 13 April 2011 - 07:18 AM, said:

...and may be providing access to training otherwise only available at the univesity; she says, in fact, that she knows things even the masters don't...

Any speculation on Denna's repeated mention of the magic of writing something down, and if you read it, it becomes true for you?  Her hands are making funny symbols on the table as she discusses this.  I doubt that Denna, or anyone for that matter, would willingly work for or support the Chandrian, if only because of their reputation.  It sounds like a powerful, and potentially old, magic - has Cinder bound Denna to not reveal his identity?  Would Bredon be capable of this kind of thing?

I only have questions here...no answers.

[thistlepong]

wrathofdog, on 13 April 2011 - 08:29 AM, said:

There's also the issue of Kvothe reading Chronicler's book about Draccuses during his first visit to the Archives, and Chronicler telling Kvothe that he was already a legend when Chronicler attended the University.

So either Chronicler attended the University very late in life after a career as an author (and iirc it's only been a few years since Kvothe left the University, so Chronicler's term there would have had to have been pretty short), or we have a distortion of the time continuum.

I can probably handwave this with apocrypha, but it's worth adding.  In a few early interviews Rothfuss describes Chapter one of NotW originally being Skarpi and Chronicler hunting down legends and catching wind of Kvothe's whereabouts.  So it's probably a sloppy callback to that; and Chronicler's older than Kvothe by quite a bit.

Errata

• Stapes's ring:
  

  Stapes gives Kvothe a silver ring.  Kvothe returns a gold ring.  Howl!

• The period between Hallowfell and the murder of Kvothe's parents.
  

  Essentially, there's missing time.  They leave Abenthy in Hallowfell in the spring, months pass, the troupe is murdered, Kvothe spends the summer in the woods and ends up in Tarbean in the fall.  Between four months and a year are missing or inserted.

  _{The timeline here is pretty solid, provided span by span, with months noted.  Howl!}

• The Mating Habits of the Common Draccus
  

  Kvothe reads it in his first term at University.  One of the first stories Chronicler hears about Kvothe when he gets to the University is about Kvothe learning Tema in a day. Howl!

Edited by thistlepong, 13 April 2011 - 10:03 AM.

[Zizoz]

Is it certain that when Chronicler goes to the University after Kvothe is a legend, it's not just to find information on him? That was my impression. I don't know if he also studied there at that time or if that was earlier.

[word]

Quote

I agree, Master Ash is Cinder. Look at this:
"Just tell me when I hit one you like . . . Federick the Flippant. Frank. Feran. Forue. Fordale. . . ."

Right after this, leaf in the mouth.

Quote

Yeah, that was my thought as well. If the wind hadn't blown the ash leaf into his mouth, I bet he would have said "Ferule" within the next 5 tries.

So are we suggesting that the wind protected him from saying one of the Chandrian's true names, which might alert them to his location?

The Chronicler timeline is screwy mostly because he knows the name of Iron and because the book was already written when Kvothe went there, so chances are that he attended before Kvothe.  I kinda just figure he meant that he returned to the University at some point and was hearing stories about Kvothe then.  What was the exact quote? Something like "That's one of the first stories I heard about you at the University". Something along those lines, wish I had my book near me.  

The silver-gold ring thing is an inconsistency but really not a big deal. The supposed timeline issue between when they left Abenthy and when Kvothe's parents died is really not an issue at all.  Nothing important happened between leaving Ben and his parents dying.  He wasn't learning new sympathy, so he was probably just performing plays and singing songs no need to mention it really.

[Gaston de Foix]

Zizoz, on 13 April 2011 - 11:02 AM, said:

Is it certain that when Chronicler goes to the University after Kvothe is a legend, it's not just to find information on him? That was my impression. I don't know if he also studied there at that time or if that was earlier.

Chronicler also talks about studying Naming with Master Namer as Elodin.

It's necessary to the story that Chronicler is older than Kvothe since Kvothe read his book at the age of 16 at the University. So Chronicler either was a mature student after Kvothe was expelled or he had already left by the time Kvothe attended.

If he had already left, there are two problems with this thesis. First it appears Elodin only started teaching Naming again while Kvothe was at the university. Second how does he hear stories about Kvothe, the way it's presented it sounds like Chronicler all bright eyed and bushy tailed hearing stories about the person whose name had become both curse and praise at the university.

IF he attended after Kvothe as a mature student, well Chronicler says he only matured after attending, studying with Elodin, leaving university and travelling. So it doesn't make complete sense. I mean even the construction of this complicated scenario to make it work is silly, Rothfuss goofed plain and simple.

Edited by grinachu, 13 April 2011 - 12:06 PM.

[Gaston de Foix]

Thistle I was going to wait for the weekend and make a comprehensive list complete with quotes and page numbers, and double check my work but you've tempted me with your sneaky unfinished lists. I did make a comprehensive list for myself somewhere...

[u]Errata[/u]

• Stapes's ring:
  

  Stapes gives Kvothe a silver ring.  Kvothe returns a gold ring.  Howl!

• The period between Hallowfell and the murder of Kvothe's parents.
  

  Essentially, there's missing time.  They leave Abenthy in Hallowfell in the spring, months pass, the troupe is murdered, Kvothe spends the summer in the woods and ends up in Tarbean in the fall.  Between four months and a year are missing or inserted.

  [sub]The timeline here is pretty solid, provided span by span, with months noted.  Howl![/sub]

• The Mating Habits of the Common Draccus
  

  Kvothe reads it in his first term at University.  One of the first stories Chronicler hears about Kvothe when he gets to the University is about Kvothe learning Tema in a day. Howl!

• Sim, Son of a Duke
  

  Kvothe is told Sim is the son of a duke in Atur in NOTW. He has to relearn this all over again in WMF Howl!

• Auri doesn't talk during meals
  

  Auri apparently doesn't talk during meals in WMF. Except she does it all the time in NOTW. Howl!

[*]The Priest keeps changing his name

The priest is Pater Leodin, Leoden, Abbe Grimes. Apparently Kvothe think's he's a good guy in one part of the novel and then doesn't get on with him in another part of the novel.  Howl!

[*]The characters keep changing their names

There are a bunch of random widows floating around, having affairs with the Mayor or Bast or someone else. The names of the widows keep changing the characteristics are similar but not identical. Half the time Kvothe has the scoop on the local gossip, the other half of the time it's Bast. NOTW her name is Widow Sage and she has a daughter called Katie. In WMF the Katie, Bast is referring to is called Katie Miller and the Widow is Widow Creel. Howl!

[/list]
[/list]



[/list]


[/list]
[/quote]

[thistlepong]

I wanna be a bastard here.  
First, Elodin was Headmaster of the University before his little vacation in the Taborlin suite.  Introduction To Not Being a Complete Jackass is only the first class he's taught since he resumed the post of Master Namer.

However:
Location NotWc7:  He says only, "I heard about it at the university."
Location WMFc46:  He says, "But that's the first story I ever heard about you when I came to the University."
The change in disposition between the two books is what makes it howl.  The disparity in NotW can be explained away.  The additions in WMF make it ridiculous.

I'm concerned about handwaving the birthday 'cause he repeatedly calls out his age - when he learned or did this and that - and because it louses up my timeline.

[Slick Mongoose]

grinachu, on 13 April 2011 - 11:57 AM, said:

[*]The Priest keeps changing his name

The priest is Pater Leodin, Leoden, Abbe Grimes. Apparently Kvothe think's he's a good guy in one part of the novel and then doesn't get on with him in another part of the novel.  Howl!

I thought Pater = Father and Abbe = Abbot. Sort of like how father, vicar, rector and priest are often used for the same person. So his name would be Leoden Grimes.

[flare]

Couldnt the Chronicler had written the book before he attended the university?
And the duke thing... Maybe Wilem just forgot that Kvothe already knew.

[Angeleyes]

Yes.  Elodin was Chancellor before The Name of the Wind.  Something like 5 years before TNotW something happens to crack Chancellor Elodin.  Chancellor Herma takes over.  Something like 2 years before TNotW Elodin breaks out of the Rookery.  He is then aloud to simply roam around and act crazy.  

It is very plausible to me that Chancellor left the arcanum before Kvothe got there.  If Kilvin likes students to have completed schema to make them El'the, it may makes sense for Lorren to want Re'Lars to contribute to his great library.  We know Trebon has Draccus's and that it is close to the University, so perhaps Chronicler went chasing dragons in his youth only to write a great bio book on draccus'.  It would also explain why the Archives has a copy (though that shouldn't need explanation).  It my explain why Devi has a copy (she is 4-6 years older than Kvothe.  Assume handsome Devan is 15 years older than Kvothe.  You could definitely see some El'the E'lir flirtation there).


Back to Elodin!
We know during this time he still functions as the Master Namer.  He takes Fela to the quarry and makers her walk with clay in her shoes all day... As well as somewhere else.

In WMF is the first time Kvothe finds out he is teaching a class.  It was clearly invitation only.  My interpretation was that only after Elodin sees him name Auri does he allow Kvothe to enroll.  He does this by adding a class with room for a single student to the roster 'Introduction to not being a complete jackass.'

I find that this fits with the way Elodin and the university at large operate with secrecy based on level.  In TNotW, very few people talk about naming at all.  Maybe because it is so hard, but it seems like most members of the University haven't even heard of it.  While the members of the Arcanum harldy seem to discuss it.  Indeed while the rank Re'Lar seems to be given to anyone who knows a name, many Re'Lars seem to be advanced simply because they are 'on track' to graduate so to speak.  Elodin only teaching a class on naming to a handpicked bunch seems to fit the classic mold of the 'old days university'.

Things I noticed in my latest reread of TNotW
-Elodin waggles his fingers alot for no apparent reason which most people take as a sign he is crazy.  We now have reason to believe he is using Ademic hand speach at all of those junctures.  It might be fun to look for meanings he is trying to convey.

-Chronicler binds Bast at the beginning of TNotW while touching an iron ring around his neck.  Presumably the one he made when he learned the name of iron.

ETA:  It seems that the place that the Arcanum and University collectively occupy is called 'The University'.  As opposed to 'The magic school by Imre'.  I think it is plausible that Chronicler refers to the University as its place name.  As in, that was the first story I heard when I came to Myr Tariniel!

Edited by Angeleyes, 13 April 2011 - 02:08 PM.

[thistlepong]

Chop:

Angeleyes, on 13 April 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:

-Chronicler binds Bast at the beginning of TNotW while touching an iron ring around his neck.  Presumably the one he made when he learned the name of iron.

Possibly neither here nor there, but it's a Tehlin wheel.

grinachu, on 13 April 2011 - 11:57 AM, said:

4. Sim, Son of a Duke

Kvothe is told Sim is the son of a duke in Atur in NOTW. He has to relearn this all over again in WMF Howl!

flare, on 13 April 2011 - 01:16 PM, said:

And the duke thing... Maybe Wilem just forgot that Kvothe already knew.

NotWc37 – Sovoy: “Simmon’s father is a paper duke bowing to a tin king in Atur.”
WMFc39 – Wil: “Sim’s father holds a duchy in Atur.” cue Kvothe’s surprise

^{There's a few pages of surprise followed by exposition.}

[Gaston de Foix]

Slick Mongoose, on 13 April 2011 - 01:00 PM, said:

I thought Pater = Father and Abbe = Abbot. Sort of like how father, vicar, rector and priest are often used for the same person. So his name would be Leoden Grimes.

You are right that Pater=Father and Abbe=Abbot. Abbots and Fathers are two different things though, abbots are generally heads of communities of monks, whereas priests are just priests. But you know let's just accept the local priest is called Abbe in the Four Corners.

There are also two different spellings of Leoden in the novels.

Actually beyond these trivial errors, it actually bothers me that characters are kept so fluid. I get what the author is trying to accomplish by bringing in the Widow Creel and Mary and Bast's rumoured (or admitted) affair, etc etc. But there's a point to consistency too. GRRM manages to keep a cast of thousands virtually always straight and his plot structure is much more complicated than the Kingkiller Chronicles. PR has done a realistic job with the cast of Shep, Carter, Aaron, Jake, Cob. They all have some backstory and its mostly consistent. Jake is a Tehlin, Cob is a storyteller unafraid to embroider, Aaron's unimaginative but brave.

There are times when the character mask slips. He could stop using the phrase "all sorts of clever" for instance. But broadly its well executed. But when you get to the secondary minor characters he just switches them around for no reason, or messes up details. Either Kvothe has a high opinion of the local priest or he doesn't. Either Kvothe is going to knowingly inform Bast of the goings-on in the village or Bast is going to do it for Kvothe. Don't make them take turns. Because when I read that, I'm like, hunh, a character's gone from being remarkably well informed/savvy with local gossip to completely obtuse in one chapter. And maybe it's because I'm a fan of ASOIAF I do catalogue characters in my head. When details switch around it's a different kind of bad writing from a continuity error or making a mistake on timing/eye colour. And Rothfuss has vocally criticised J K Rowling for instance for not consistently world-building or following through the logic of the rules of the world he's set.

Don't get me wrong, I love the books, and I think Rothfuss has a huge amount of talent. He deserves the fame he's earned. But putting aside any possible subjective criteria, could he make the books better? Absolutely.