403 replies to this topic

[unJon]

ShanRawr, on 15 April 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:

Whatever Elodin did to break down the wall oxidized the copper (since it turned into a green web).

Or it could have been oxidized before he knocked it down, I suppose.

Second explanation is likely right.  It doesn't take copper long to oxidize.  And Elodin spoke the name of stone to break the wall.  We have no reason to think that would have any impact on copper.

grinachu, on 15 April 2011 - 03:03 PM, said:

good thought about shaping copper in some way so it cannot be named, that makes good sense.

Shaping seems to be a "lost art."  Plenty of Kilvin quotes implying this, showing Kvothe all of the cool stuff that no one can make anymore.  I doubt Copper needs to be shaped in order to not be named, since in the present day, they used copper for the Elodin room, and no reason to think that copper was shaped, and some reason to think that it is impossible it was shaped: 1) Shaping lost in present time; 2) If shaping is related to naming and then changing the name, and if copper is naming resistant, it is probably shaping resistant.

ShanRawr, on 15 April 2011 - 06:38 PM, said:

Dremora, I like simple explanations best too.  For the most part, I agree with you and that was my initial reaction.

But Kvothe has other barrels in the tavern before the brass ones show up.  Why the sudden concern for Bast?  Maybe the others have brass too, and it isn't mentioned.  If so, they weren't made by the same guy that made the ones that are delivered.  It was his first time.

Even if they were the first bought off that guy, that guy clearly knew Kvothe wanted brass ones, IIRC.  And zero evidence that Kvothe's other barrels are not brass.

Dremora, on 15 April 2011 - 06:49 PM, said:

Its quite possible that there is a more complicted explintion, but I don't have any idea why brass. I thought maybe its because he's expecting a visit from the Chandrian and maybe brass doesn't rust when they are near, but I can't see why some barrels would be important if they did attack his inn.

Don't buy this. Would think you would want some iron around so you can spot that sign of the Chandrian if they show up.  Who cares if they rust a barrel or a door lock?  Caring about Bast explanation works and is in character and is a nice subtle touch.

[chanonyx]

"Oh," Elodin said suddenly, laughing. "That was half-clever of them." He took two steps back from the
wall. "CYAERBASALIEN. "
Is it possible that Elodin here "speaks copper into oxidation"? That he speaks to the veins of copper running through the blocks of stone that made the wall, - that half-clever work as he calls it?
CY-AER-BASALIEN:
CY: from copper <cyprium < the Greek name for the copper island, Kypros (cyprus)
AER from Greek/Latin for air, wind ---

Sort of: let the CY-prium react with AER so that the stone
(BASAL- like foundation??) shall break?

Quarter-clever, very quarter-wit of me, I think though...

[GM Pierce]

I think you are trying to over-interpret this one. "Half-clever" simply means that they changed the wall so that it would not recognize the language that Elodin used to tell the stone to break. CYAERBASALIEN probably means "stone break" in the language it could now understand. And the copper probably oxidized on its own - no help needed.

[chanonyx]

GM Pierce, on 16 April 2011 - 02:16 PM, said:

I think you are trying to over-interpret this one. "Half-clever" simply means that they changed the wall so that it would not recognize the language that Elodin used to tell the stone to break. CYAERBASALIEN probably means "stone break" in the language it could now understand. And the copper probably oxidized on its own - no help needed.

I agree with you as to the meaning of "half-clever" in this context and my over-interpretation of oxidation.
It's only a bit of the etymology of names I'm trying to stammer, quarter-wittily as Elodin and Hemme would say…

Take, for example, the word "AERLEVSEDI":
Here the surface "etymology" seems to be somewhat like:
AER = air, wind
SEDI: < Latin sedare, English to sedate
LEV: perhaps <Latin levare, English to level (?)

So, on the surface, we could "translate": "Wind, be levelled and sedated!"

Please, excuse my deficiency in expressing myself in English. (I'm a classical scholar, from Germany… and I permanently enjoy your equally quick-witted and thorough ideas in this forum.)

[ShanRawr]

chanonyx is a Namer...  

[Thaykora]

Fairly simple question: Where did the shapers come from? Felurian tells us the story of how the old name-knowers existed first, and then came the shapers. Did the shapers arise from within the old name-knowers, or were they a separate people from another land?

Quote:

Quote

She drew a deep breath and let it out in a sigh. “then came those who saw a thing and
thought of changing it. they thought in terms of mastery. “they were shapers. proud dreamers.”

Any evidence you can think of? I'm gonna try to build a quick genealogy tree (on a timeline) and knowing the answer to this will make it loads easier.

[Zizoz]

I don't think it was a matter of changing the language that the stone "understood". If you know the name of stone, you know the name of stone, and it shouldn't matter what language you speak it in, if indeed the concept of languages applies to names. I like the theory that the copper had something to do with it better. Otherwise, what was the point of the copper -- it may be naming-proof, but if one could just use the name of stone to destroy the rest of the wall, then bend the copper to get out, it's not serving much of a purpose. But if it had some effect on the stone such that merely knowing the name of stone wasn't enough, and something more was needed, that would explain its presence.

[Foreverlad]

Hey all, been away for awhile, had quite a bit of catching up to do reading through these additional threads.

Totally outside the theorizing, but I had a tiny nitpick I wanted to ask about:  Stitches.  Is it just me, or are stitches the chicken soup of Kvothe's world?  Paper cut on your hand?  That's going to require stitches.  Been whipped something fierce?  Stitches.  Carpet burn? Stitches!  Bruised Ego?  Stitches!

Okay, I do exaggerate, but am I wrong?  It seemed that every single physical cut, bruise or pimple popped resulted in stitches for Kvothe.  I dunno, maybe I'm in the minority, but I was ready to turn it into a drinking game for my next read-through, they appeared so frequently.

[Direwolves are totally sweet]

After reading through these hundreds of terrific posts, I am absolutely on the Left Hand Damage theory. Very curious about his box; if it's the lute, why go for it, assuming his hand is too injured to play well?

Man, I am stoked for the third book. Heck, and the second trilogy also.

For now, I am slogging through a careful re-read of Bakkerworld.

[Dremora]

Has it been said anywhere that there will be a second trilogy or are we just assuming? I really hope there is.

[dcon]

Dremora, on 17 April 2011 - 11:05 AM, said:

Has it been said anywhere that there will be a second trilogy or are we just assuming? I really hope there is.

I posted an interview he gave from 07 in the 3rd wmf thread where he said there would be a second trilogy but wouldn't say what it was going to be about. Not sure if it deals with Kvothe or someone else in his world.

[rdbrown]

So at his signing Friday night in Austin, someone asked Rothfuss how many different types of magic there were including Naming and Sympathy. His response after some counting in his head was 6. Later someone followed up and asked how many of those six we have seen so far, and he said five. So, what are they?

1. Sympathy
2. Naming
3. Grammary?
4. Glamourie?
5. Yllish knots?

6. ? Shaping?

Is sygaldry a separate magic? Maybe he considers the Fae magic as one type? Thoughts?

[AverageGuy]

rdbrown, on 17 April 2011 - 03:35 PM, said:

So at his signing Friday night in Austin, someone asked Rothfuss how many different types of magic there were including Naming and Sympathy. His response after some counting in his head was 6. Later someone followed up and asked how many of those six we have seen so far, and he said five. So, what are they?

1. Sympathy
2. Naming
3. Grammary?
4. Glamourie?
5. Yllish knots?

6. ? Shaping?

Is sygaldry a separate magic? Maybe he considers the Fae magic as one type? Thoughts?

Elodin mentions sygaldry and sympathy separately in one of his Naming lectures, but I got the impression that they're not really different.  Sympathy, Sygaldry, Alchemy, Grammarie, Glamourie, Naming, and Shaping are definite systems I can think of, but that's seven.  Sygaldry and Sympathy, Glamourie and Grammarie, or Naming and Shaping, any of them may double up as different sides of the same thing.

[thistlepong]

AverageGuy, on 17 April 2011 - 05:03 PM, said:

Elodin mentions sygaldry and sympathy separately in one of his Naming lectures, but I got the impression that they're not really different.  Sympathy, Sygaldry, Alchemy, Grammarie, Glamourie, Naming, and Shaping are definite systems I can think of, but that's seven.  Sygaldry and Sympathy, Glamourie and Grammarie, or Naming and Shaping, any of them may double up as different sides of the same thing.

Maybe I can get him to name them on Thursday.
They look like they come in pairs
Sympathy/Sygaldry
Glamourie/Grammarie
Naming/?

I think the ? is the Yllish knotwork.  I know folks aren't comfortable with it, but let me throw a couple things out there.
First, shaping is described as "seeing a thing and thinking to change it."  That's an entirely accurate description of what Elodin and Fela do to stone.  It also seems adequate to making fruit with an historical record visible in its skin.  It seems like bold, or dangerous, naming; nothing more.
Second, in a doorstopper of a book Rothfuss spends a fair amount of time hinting at it.  Either its existence is important and significant.  Or its non-existence is.  I can't think of a good reason for its absence to be important and significant.
Finally, the pairs seem to be immediate/constant.  A constant for naming would be written - or woven - and affect every viewer over time rather than a a single broken wall.

Grin asked earlier why Yll got trampled by Atur if they could do this.  Two responses come to mind.  Concretely, only those who see it would believe it.  Fancifully, Atur may have been able to protect itself via naming; potentially even naming performed by Tehlu.  That's like to start a secondary argument, but whatever.

[ShanRawr]

He does so many other things in sevens, and chooses six magic systems instead of seven?  He should have added one more for the heck of it.  Silly, lazy, PR.  jk

[AverageGuy]

thistlepong, on 17 April 2011 - 06:01 PM, said:

It seems like bold, or dangerous, naming; nothing more.

I agree with the theory to a point.  I agree that Shaping is probably bold or dangerous Naming,  However, I think terminology creates some confusion.  When Fela makes her ring, even though that is changing the existing "shape," I think it's still Naming.  After Fela's done, the ring is still stone, the Name of stone will still affect it.  I got the impression Shaping is changing the Name itself.  Like turning people or animals into Fae, or the weird tree Felurian mentioned, or the way Selitos changed Tehlu et al.  If Fela'd made the ring luminous or brought it to life or something, that would be Kvotheworld Shaping.

Also, I agree with you about the knots.  Even if it's not the knots themselves, whatever Denna's got a hint of is probably related to the final magic system.

[Gaston de Foix]

thistlepong, on 17 April 2011 - 06:01 PM, said:

Maybe I can get him to name them on Thursday.
They look like they come in pairs
Sympathy/Sygaldry
Glamourie/Grammarie
Naming/?

I think the ? is the Yllish knotwork.  I know folks aren't comfortable with it, but let me throw a couple things out there.
First, shaping is described as "seeing a thing and thinking to change it."  That's an entirely accurate description of what Elodin and Fela do to stone.  It also seems adequate to making fruit with an historical record visible in its skin.  It seems like bold, or dangerous, naming; nothing more.
Second, in a doorstopper of a book Rothfuss spends a fair amount of time hinting at it.  Either its existence is important and significant.  Or its non-existence is.  I can't think of a good reason for its absence to be important and significant.
Finally, the pairs seem to be immediate/constant.  A constant for naming would be written - or woven - and affect every viewer over time rather than a a single broken wall.

Grin asked earlier why Yll got trampled by Atur if they could do this.  Two responses come to mind.  Concretely, only those who see it would believe it.  Fancifully, Atur may have been able to protect itself via naming; potentially even naming performed by Tehlu.  That's like to start a secondary argument, but whatever.

I can't believe you have a chance to meet Rothfuss. I'll try to think of interesting questions for you to ask him :0). I know he is very concerned about spoilers, so he is likely to RAFO anything even vaguely spoilerish.

what leads you to believe that grammarie is anything other than shaping? Glamourie is the art of making things seem, grammarie the art of making things be. Shaping is making things be. Bast brings what grammarie he has to bear on the holly and it will last longer because of his grammarie. All the Fae are minor shapers.

I agree with AverageGuy. What Fela does is Naming. It's not substantively different from Elodin commanding the stone to break or Kvothe summoning the wind.

[rdbrown]

just a suggestion to those who will try to get answers from rothfuss - try to ask vague questions that might get near an answer to what you really want to know. His stock answer to any specific questions regarding the text was ' that's a good question.'

[zottel]

dcon, on 15 April 2011 - 09:35 PM, said:

Yeah that's true. I guess I just think that Bast would know if someone killed it, unless he really isn't in tuned with the Fae world much anymore or his wording doesn't imply that it's alive.

As an aside I loved how the Fae use it in their plays as an ominous sign. Love any references to Greek tragedy.

Well, how would anybody know if Kvothe killed the Ctheath if everyone is killed after (presumably) speaking to it? ;)


On the topic of Sim:
WMFc39 – Wil: “Sim’s father holds a duchy in Atur.” cue Kvothe’s surprise

If I remember correctly, Kvothe was surprised because of the location, Atur, as it may have been part of Gibea's lands.


First post, read the last three incarnations of this thread, sorry if anything was already discussed in length or makes no sense at all.
Some theories:

• Caudicus is of the Amyr, trying to kill the Maer for the greater good. Kvothe, of course, foils that plot, and realising it and sympathizing with their cause, realizes the Cthaeth was right and laughs.
  
• If not Caudicus, I firmly believe Bredon to be of the Amyr, as an organisation that was forced underground centuries ago and still holds power must have a lot of people in important positions, think freemasons. Do we ever learn if Bredon IS in some way nobility, or might the iron ring be a clue to his low birth?
  
• Skarpi: "I only know one story. But oftentimes small pieces seem to be stories themselves....It's growing all around us. In the manor houses of the Cealdim and in the workshops of the Cealdar, over the Stormwal in the great sand sea. In the low stone houses of the Adem, full of silent conversation. And sometimes.....Sometimes the story is growing in squalid backstreet bars, Dockside in Tarbean."
  Kvothe was in Ardemre, might have traveled through the Stormwal Mountains on his way to/from Ademre, I have no idea about Ceald, although the workshops remind me of the Fishery, he IS in a squalid backstreet bar ... is Skarpi telling Kvothe's story?

A little crackpottery (random thoughts that ocurred to me, without good/any facts to support them):
-Let's say copper has no name. One of Kvothe's rings is nameless. It is a copper ring, and, badd-ass as he is, Kvothe managed to somehow name it/shape it anyway.
-The broken tree might refer to the family tree of some noble family, and would well fit the kingkiller theme.
-I don't believe the Chandrian have servants, we have never (knowingly) seen one, and they pose a great risk of spreading knowledge about them.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

I don't think Skarpi is Amyr. Chronicler name drops Skarpi while trying to get Kvothe to tell his story. I think this implies two things 1) Skarpi and Kvothe cause trouble together in book 3 and 2) their working relationship is public enough someone like Chronicler knows about it.

Alternative crackpot theory that I like more. Skarpi IS Amyr, so is Kvothe, and so is Chronicler. C says that Skarpi is the only one who knows he's there to let Kvothe know that he's another Amyr and therefore, Kvother should tell his story instead of killing Chronicler. Name dropping Skarpi is a clever way to tell let Kvothe in on that secret while keeping the readers in the dark.

Love the Left Hand theory btw.