The Wise Man's Fear IV (SPOILERS)

[Spaceman Hobbes]

You'd think that at some point the Sithe would know that the one thing they're supposed to be guarding is dead idk

Yeah but they carry long bows so they don't risk speaking to anyone who has spoken to the Ctheth.

[Zizoz]

I personally believe the singers are the "angels". There's been some discussion of them before and I consider that the most likely possibility. I think there was some mention of the angels singing in Skarpi's story.

[Thaykora]

Here's another list of questions, answer if you'd like. Note: These weren't intended to be questions to ask Rothfuss... they're way too specific. I'll share my own replies to this in a new post.

1. 
   
2. Does the Cthaeh have many heads, like a hydra?
   
3. Is Illien the leader of the city that did not fall; known to the Adem as the one who did not forget the Lethani?
   
4. If so, Illien being one of the Ruach, and being Edema Ruh, what does that make Kvothe?
   
5. Is Trapis' story of Tehlu the tale of the first humans, and their separation from the Fae who chose the Faen-realm?
   
6. What does Tehlu's binding of Encanis (Haliax) to the iron wheel actually represent, given that Haliax cannot die and is alive and well?
   
7. Is there significance in that Bast/Bastas is "The Prince of Twilight" and Felurian is "The Lady of Twilight"?
   
8. Why is Felurian called "The Lady of the First Quiet"?
   
9. Does Felurian send Kvothe away for the day because the final part of his Shaed requires Shaping-magic, and she has a reason for not being seen using it or revealing it?
   
10. Would that mean the 'old magic' Elodin identifies in the Shaed is Shaping; and Kilvin's list of 'old magic' devices are items created through Shaping?
    
11. Is there significance to Alchemy being the only magic that always refers to "unbinding principles", while the other two "teachable" magics (Sympathy and Sygaldry) both refer to "binding principles"?
    
12. Are Sympathy, Sygaldry and Naming all part of the same, single type of magic?
    
13. Or does Sygaldry have more in common with Shaping?
    
14. Was the number of bandits that were killed explicitly by the lightning (9) another indication that it was actually the Amyr, and not lightning called by Kvothe?
    
15. Or is Selitos considered one of the Amyr, even while Tehlu is the greatest?
    
16. Are the Aleu the stars, or named by the constellations among the stars?
    
17. Why does Bast say that no one will teach him, if not for Kvothe?
    
18. What is Fela making with cut-tile, glass and obsidian? For who or what class?
    
    

I'll follow this with my replies, which might explain why I chose these questions.

[Thaykora]

1. Possibly. Multi-headed and snake-like. Reminds me of the greek Lernaean Hydra... even moreso after reading the wikipedia entry. Quotes: "“Come now,” the voice continued, now coming from a different part of the tree ... I thought I saw a sinuous motion among the branches ... a dramatic sigh that seemed to come from several places in the foliage at once"

2. He seems the most likely to me. Felurian knew of him, but not Taborlin. She's been in the Fae since the Creation War, and that means Illien was likely around at that time as well.

3. A descendant of Ruach? Maybe he has blood in him the same as the first people, before they were distinctly humans and fae. If humans and fae were the same at one point (candidate for what the Ruach were), perhaps Kvothe has some skill or power that has since been lost.

4. If you interpret it as such: Those who came to Tehlu's 'side' lost their power, yet remained in Ergen under the protection of the Amyr, and are now known as 'human'. Those who did not cross to his side kept their power, yet only in the Faen-realm without protection from the Amyr, and are now known as 'fae'. As for the one who would not cross, and was struck down by Tehlu? Maybe they are now the Tahl, who live across the mountains, which is "the outer darkness that is the home of its kind" because they wished to still follow some shaping. Could explain why they sing songs that can supposedly make trees dance. But that would then imply a connection between singing and shaping... we'll save that for another post.

5. Either 1.) I have no idea or 2.) That part, and the heavy allegory throughout is part of the fluff added by the church.

6. I'm not sure. Here's a few options: They're related by blood and Felurian had Bastas with Remmen... They both hold a share of the same land or power... it's a real Fae title, but humans misunderstand and over-use it in Fae stories... Bast's 150 years were spent mostly in the Fae, and MUCH more time has passed outside the Fae?

7. I have two guesses: She was around, or in power, during a period of quiet. Or it's a sexual innuendo.

8. Maybe, but she may have just been cranky about having to work with iron. Kvothe does say he was being shooed away from the presence of serious magic, but that could refer to Felurian herself. Then again, she did request a piece of iron and had to do something with it: Glamour wouldn't really apply, and Grammar is a bit of a stretch as well.

9. It's a possibility. The 'old magic' Elodin identifies in the Shaed could be the Grammarie, it's ancient creator (Felurian), or perhaps even Shaping. Kilvin's list of 'old magic' devices would mose likely fit as Grammar or Shaping.

10. Maybe. I'll have to dig further. If there is significance, perhaps Alchemy is a 'lesser version' of shaping, much like Sympathy appears to be.

11. Perhaps. Abenthy asks Kvothe if he wants to learn naming, then tells him he must start with Sympathy to learn "letters before he can write" and "fingerings on the strings before he can play and sing" and the University requires a basic grasp of it before admittance to the Arcanum. That shows a clear connection between those two. As for Sygaldry, it's called "Sympathy made solid".

12. Not sure. Kvothe says he enjoys it for the "shaping" with his hands, the "act of creation", but that it's also Sympathy made solid.

13. Given the other evidence as well, assuming Selitos is not among the Amyr, then it may be significant.

14. Not sure. Maybe he is, yet he doesn't travel about with them?

15. Not sure. Kvothe names some constellations: Ewan the hunter, the crucible, the youngagain

mother, the fire-tongued fox, the broken tower

16. Perhaps Fae only have access to certain magic, and as a result of circumstances, or the distrust of Fae in general, Bast knows Kvothe may be the only one who is willing or able. Perhaps the answer to this lies in how Bast and Kvothe meet.

17. No idea. Scriv stuff for Lorren?

One last really crazy idea that explains why nouns in Siaru seem to be randomly capitalized at times:

In Siaru, nouns are used as such: capitalization is used for both proper names and collective nouns; left lowercase they become an implicit indefinite/definite articles. Crazy... I know. But it explains a couple quotes and might give some better understanding into the language, on the off-chance it's right.

Quote when Kvothe names his horse, "“Tu Ketha?” I asked him. Are you coal? “Tu mahne?” Are you a shadow?"

Quote with Wilem/Sim, "“Melosi rehu eda Stiti,” Wilem muttered...“Eda Stiti?” I repeated. “You sleep next to fire?”"

[AverageGuy]

Here's another thought. Who are the singers?

1) The simple answer, just people like the Ruh or other storytellers. We know the Chandrian don't want their true history proliferating, and songs could spread fast.

2) More in line with your thought, a certain breed of Namer. When Kvothe named Felurian, he described her name as notes. That may just be coloring from Kvothe's POV, but maybe there's more to it.

3) Tehlu and his angels. After they transformed, they sang songs of power.

4) The leaders of the Tahl are said to be singers who can use their songs to do things like make trees move.

[Dremora]

One little inconsistancy I noticed is that TWMF is meant to all happen in a day, but the Audiobook is 42 hours long. Maybe Kvothe talks really really fast.

[Zizoz]

Yeah, I wouldn't want to be Chronicler. :P

Also, as I recall, Tehlu is an angel*, not an Amyr; Selitos founded the Amyr, while Aleph founded the angels.

*Is the term "angel" actually used? In any case, that's what they seem like. Also note that most of my knowledge of the book now comes from reading the threads on them here...

[Who's on Third]

@Demora

Haha that's awesome

[dcon]

Yeah but they carry long bows so they don't risk speaking to anyone who has spoken to the Ctheth.

I wonder how close the Sithe actually are to it. Are they always actually watching it? They'd have to be close if they are supposed to prevent people from talking to it. Really hope we see more of it in the last book.

[Angeleyes]

It occurred to me while reading TNotW that this cover has absolutely nothing to do with the first book that I could think of.

But it definitely reminds me of the C'thaeth. But... Kvothe seems to be wearing a cloak in this picture. So? Foreshadowing Kvothe's breaking of the tree in book 3?

I love all of the times we are spotting deliberate allusions to the moon and Denna and Auri in this book. One of the theories I have been playing with for a long time is that 'Denna' is the name of the wind. She matches the wind, and her name is ever changing. I was reading the selas flower conversation earlier and was struck by the following quote.

Paraphrased for lazy: 'You are like a Willow flower... The willow is servant to the wind more than any other tree. The willow bows to the wind, but never breaks'

When Denna finally betrays Kvothe he breaks, like a willow tree finally snapped in a terrible storm. Thus, Maedre -> Broken Tree

@Thaykora

17) "I was surprised to learn that she'd been working with Elodin for the last several months. She did some sculpting for him, and in exchange he occasionally tried to teach her" TNotW 463

[Thaykora]

@Thaykora

17) "I was surprised to learn that she'd been working with Elodin for the last several months. She did some sculpting for him, and in exchange he occasionally tried to teach her" TNotW 463

Ahh thank you. I knew there had to be an answer somewhere. I read half of that line and skipped over the sculpting part at least 2-3 times. Although it does just end up creating more questions! What did she make for him? Why?

Thanks!

[Gaston de Foix]

Here's another list of questions, answer if you'd like. Note: These weren't intended to be questions to ask Rothfuss... they're way too specific. I'll share my own replies to this in a new post.

1. 
   
2. No way of knowing how many heads the Ctaeth has. There is nothing in the text to support the suggestion that it has many heads.
   
3. Illien is known as being a master musician and one of the Edema Ruh. If the wandering culture of the Edema is true then it's hard to square with being a leader of a city.
   
4. There's no evidence that Illien is one of the Ruach. In any event given that the Edema Ruh are very often not related by blood at all, it doesn't have any implications for Kvothe's race.
   
5. Possibly.
   
6. A restraint on his power perhaps?
   
7. I think that's just poetic license.
   
8. I think it denotes her age.
   
9. I think it requires her to handle iron and that's very painful for her.
   
10. Good catch about the old magic, I tend to agree.
    
11. hmm not sure. Ask those who know more about alchemy than me?
    
12. No they are not. Naming is an older magic. See pg. 315-316 WMF.
    
13. I don't think sygaldry has anything in common with shaping.
    
14. No I think it was Kvothe killing the bandits. But I do believe there was more going in that scene with the references to Tehlu. Tehlu is an angel though, not an Amyr.
    
15. Selitos isn one of the Amyr.
    
16. the Aleu may well be the stars.
    
17. Because which human would trust a Fae enough to teach him human knowledge?
    
18. I have no idea. It may just be an independent research project.
    
    

[thistlepong]

Zizoz: Angels are only mentioned by Tehlins.

dcon: The minumum safe distance from the Cthaeh is half a mile.

• The path Kvothe leaves skirts it by half a mile.
  
  
  Bast says the Sithe shoot from half a mile off.

It's possible Trapis's story is an historical account.

The time he sets it in coincides with the founding of the Aturan Empire and the beginning of Tehlin record keeping.

It could be grafting a mythology onto an older story or it could be a repetition of that story.

As far as KKC goes, we know pretty much nothing about alchemy as well.

Edit: For the folks who want to believe a piece of the name of the moon is in the Loeclos Box, it seems like a stretch that it would rattle around.

[Gaston de Foix]

Zizoz: Angels are only mentioned by Tehlins.

Thistle, Angels are mentioned by both Skarpi (who is certainly not an orthodox Tehlin if he is one at all) and by Chronicler. Chronicler may be a Tehlin (although it's not clear whether the iron he wears around his neck is a guilder or an iron wheel) but certainly he refers to the story that Kvothe has killed an angel.

Plus of course there is the whole circumstantial, did Cinder run away from the angels when Marten repeatedly called Tehlu's name?

[thistlepong]

Thistle, Angels are mentioned by both Skarpi (who is certainly not an orthodox Tehlin if he is one at all) and by Chronicler. Chronicler may be a Tehlin (although it's not clear whether the iron he wears around his neck is a guilder or an iron wheel) but certainly he refers to the story that Kvothe has killed an angel.

Plus of course there is the whole circumstantial, did Cinder run away from the angels when Marten repeatedly called Tehlu's name?

Skarpi does not use angel.

It is clear that the iron Chronicler wears is an iron wheel.

• K13290: Last of all he removed the simple iron wheel from around his neck and laid it on the nightstand.
  
• K13294: He laid the key on the nightstand, then frowned and picked up the stylized iron wheel and put it back around his neck before snuffing the lamp and crawling into bed.
  

In the interest of clarity, Marten never uses angel either.

Looking back through, Kvothe uses, "Tehlu and all his angels," colloqiually and Denna uses, "Sweet angel Ordal above," while stoned. Other than that, it's all Tehlins all the time.

Does Skarpi's description seem like something out of Milton? Sure.

Marten calls on Tehlu, Perial, Andan, and Ordal and Cinder looks up after the last three are added. Just sayin'. Cinder ran from something, probably any or all of those named. Calling them angels is as good a label as any other, but no one in the story outside Tehlins and people referencing The Book of the Path gives them that label. You do.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

C uses his iron wheel when he binds bast. If you only knew one name you'd keep that element on you wherever you went. I get the impression that C where's the wheel because most thieves are going to steal a religious symbol out of superstition or common decency.

[Gaston de Foix]

Skarpi does not use angel.

It is clear that the iron Chronicler wears is an iron wheel.

• K13290: Last of all he removed the simple iron wheel from around his neck and laid it on the nightstand.
  
• K13294: He laid the key on the nightstand, then frowned and picked up the stylized iron wheel and put it back around his neck before snuffing the lamp and crawling into bed.
  

In the interest of clarity, Marten never uses angel either.

Looking back through, Kvothe uses, "Tehlu and all his angels," colloqiually and Denna uses, "Sweet angel Ordal above," while stoned. Other than that, it's all Tehlins all the time.

Does Skarpi's description seem like something out of Milton? Sure.

Marten calls on Tehlu, Perial, Andan, and Ordal and Cinder looks up after the last three are added. Just sayin'. Cinder ran from something, probably any or all of those named. Calling them angels is as good a label as any other, but no one in the story outside Tehlins and people referencing The Book of the Path gives them that label. You do.

You are right about the wheel, I had forgotten, although I do agree with Dune: Given the preparations Chronicler took against getting robbed, it need not speak to his fervour that he had an iron wheel in the shape of a Tehlin wheel. It could just be a good disguise given the overwhelming majority of the world seems to be Tehlin.

That brings me to my second point. It is true that a LOT of the references to angels are from Tehlins, but that's largely because even with its sceptics and critics the Tehlin church is pretty much dominant in the parts of the world we have seen. We haven't really been introduced to any alternative religion although the Cealdish do seem to have different beliefs from the church.

Marten refers to Tehlu's wings when praying. I mean this is a semantic point basically, isn't it? Aleph creates winged beings in Skarpi's tale and grants them some powers. I take all your textual points; they are all right, but if you step back and look at the story, there can be some ambiguity about the relative roles of angels and the Amyr and some of what we have been shown could be dubious but there's really not room in the narrative for all of it to be flat-out wrong. What we are being shown is basically the Skarpi gloss on Tehlinism as a close approximation of truth.

[thistlepong]

Marten refers to Tehlu's wings when praying. I mean this is a semantic point basically, isn't it? Aleph creates winged beings in Skarpi's tale and grants them some powers. I take all your textual points; they are all right, but if you step back and look at the story, there can be some ambiguity about the relative roles of angels and the Amyr and some of what we have been shown could be dubious but there's really not room in the narrative for all of it to be flat-out wrong. What we are being shown is basically the Skarpi gloss on Tehlinism as a close approximation of truth.

Regarding the bold bit: yes. It's a semantic point with possible repercussions situated on a timeline that has some bearing on the story being told.

The angels seem to be a polarizing issue in every forum I've read. Mostly folk hold the opinion that the Ruach arrayed before Aleph are being given the choice to become angels. Because Wil says, "A Cealdish historian would have very little interest in a heretic sect of pagan church," we can assume he wouldn't call Andan an angel, right?

We're being fed pieces of a story from various persepctives. At the beginning of Kvothe's narrative he suggests Aleph creates or names all things. In Skarpi 1, Selitos is most powerful. Conflating Felurian/Hespe folks suggest that Iax was first, most powerful. Felurian provides no names. And Tehlins believe Tehlu made the world.

Notably incomplete with glaring omissions, Skarpi 2 is less informative than the rest. I mean, why wait 4000 years to found a church? Did Aleph grant the Amyr immortality or was Selitos able to do that, too? Or was he just such a brilliant C.O.O. that his organization lasted that long and was able to strongarm its way into a church founded by actual superhumans? For that matter, what happened to Aleph?

[Gaston de Foix]

Regarding the bold bit: yes. It's a semantic point with possible repercussions situated on a timeline that has some bearing on the story being told.

The angels seem to be a polarizing issue in every forum I've read. Mostly folk hold the opinion that the Ruach arrayed before Aleph are being given the choice to become angels. Because Wil says, "A Cealdish historian would have very little interest in a heretic sect of pagan church," we can assume he wouldn't call Andan an angel, right?

We're being fed pieces of a story from various persepctives. At the beginning of Kvothe's narrative he suggests Aleph creates or names all things. In Skarpi 1, Selitos is most powerful. Conflating Felurian/Hespe folks suggest that Iax was first, most powerful. Felurian provides no names. And Tehlins believe Tehlu made the world.

Notably incomplete with glaring omissions, Skarpi 2 is less informative than the rest. I mean, why wait 4000 years to found a church? Did Aleph grant the Amyr immortality or was Selitos able to do that, too? Or was he just such a brilliant C.O.O. that his organization lasted that long and was able to strongarm its way into a church founded by actual superhumans? For that matter, what happened to Aleph?

Which other forums have any discussion on this?

I actually don't think we can jump to the implication that the Cealdish have no interest in Angels. While I accept there is a strong correlation between Tehlinism and the angels, it's possible the Cealdish do have a tradition of angels independent of Tehlinism with some other explanation. It's worth noting that Wilem is talking about the Amyr, not Angels when he says the Cealdish people are unlikely to be interested in the doings of a branch of a pagan church and both Wilem and Kvothe are operating on the assumption that the Amyr are merely a human branch of a pagan church. After all, if angels exist and dispense mercy and justice in the world, they would hardly exclude the Cealdish people from their jurisdiction would they?

I don't think anything necessarily happened to Aleph, why would it?

[Thaykora]

I don't buy that Tehlu was already an angel.

To me the whole story (Skarpi's second story) is quite clear about that: A group of Ruach are before Aleph when, as the start of the story implies, Aleph requests something of them. Selitos steps forward, asking if he will be given the power to confound Lanre should he fulfill Aleph's request, but he is told no. He makes his case with Aleph, saying he will oppose the chandrian with a group of faithful Ruach. Many of the Ruach were afraid, and did not want to become involved, but Tehlu is the first of them to step forward, volunteering to leave the mortal world behind to serve Aleph. Others join him, they all receive wings, power, sight, and disappear from mortal sight.

Yet other parts of the story still beg questions, especially considering that Skarpi tells Kvothe that a proper story requires that you don't give too much truth/honesty, as it will confuse the facts, make it seem insincere.

1.) Why is Selitos not considered one of the Amyr, or why does he not receive the power Aleph gave the others?

2.) Kvothe calls Savien Traliard the greatest of the Amyr; the Maer mentions his favorite Amyr story being about Atreyon. Why are they not listed in Skarpi's story? Are they other Amyr that came later? Is Savien the same as Tehlu, or is this just Kvothe's opinion?

3.) What does Aleph request right before the story begins? Or am I reading that wrong? Edit: It's reasonable that the offer is angelic power, maybe as a result of the new Haliax/Chandrian threat.