The Wise Man's Fear IV (SPOILERS)

[Gaston de Foix]

I actually thought you were suggesting Marten’s prayer was the proper way to call Tehlu & Pals. They, like, put it in The Book of the Path so they could have a heads-up when significant events went down. “Tehlu anyway,” gets no traction.

Tehlu & Pals certainly have agency and mobility. And Tehlu’s absolutist. Everyone’s wicked.

Atreyon and Savien certainly, and Gibea probably with Kvothe fairly certain there were 3000 of them 300 years ago. These were temporal representatives analogous to Tehlin priests of the eternal Amyr: Selitos & Pals. But four thousand years is a vast gulf of time. I confess I got distracted reading AsoIaF so the timeline might have clues I haven’t been back over yet. I couldn’t find Gibea’s trial with a quick look.

Yes. To be honest I see that every time Dagon enters the room. Then Dagon loses an eye and it feels like I’m trapped in part V of “The Waste Land” trying to remind myself that this story isn’t going there.

First, sorry for pulling this out of context, Mandy. I'm willing to rethink whether these sections were good, but they were undoubtedly necessary. Both of them describe events from Kvothe's intital boast and both yeild a wealth of details we don't get anywhere else. Would you be willing to elaborate?

I went looking. A similar vague statement cropped up on sffchronicles recently as well. Odd.

I think one of the form of words used by Marten was the right one. Reading the scene closely you can actually work it out

"Tehlu, whose eyes are true,

Watch over me".

That's the exact moment Cinder pauses and cocks his head as if listening to something.

Then later it's "Tehlu, son of yourself, watch over me".

Again Cinder continues to listen intently as if hearing something.

then there is a repetition of the phrase "Tehlu...watch over me"

And a few moments/minutes later Cinder repeats the motion he made at the murder of the troupe scene, searching the sky.

So to sum up, the phrase is "Tehlu...watch over me".

Btw this chimes well with Skarpi 2 and Aleph's words

"No. All personal things must be set aside, and you must punish or reward only what you yourself witness from this day forth".

Cinder himself refers to Tehlu and pals as "You are as good as a watcher, Haliax" in the troupe murder scene.

Clearly witnessing or watching is key to the role that they play. the chapter heading is- "Tehlu's Watchful Eye" !

Thistle, I think you are taking Tehlinism too seriously in assuming that Tehlu is a scourge of mankind, Old Testament God kind of figure. Skarpi is a much better source, and he actually contradicts settled Tehlin dogma very convincingly in his conversation with Erlus.

In terms of agency and mobility, they have to be present as witnesses. That I think is the key. And they can punish or reward but not wage pre-emptive warfare the way the Amyr do.

About Dagon. I thought he was being set up as a Gregor Clegane-Randyll Tarly combo figure by Rothfuss and as a possible antagonist for Kvothe. I never seriously treated him as an Amyr. I mean I get he and the Amyr both like burning things down, but that's the only shared characteristic I see.

[Merihathor]

I'm starting to wonder if the Amyr and Chandrian and even the watchers/angels are not what we all think they might be, given several reasons: (1) stories are made up of lies, as is said often in the books; (2) the color version of the Amyr I saw on Pat's blog. I'm rereading the books to see if anything else points in this direction, but I'm starting to wonder if I'm building this out of air. Sigh.

[Gaston de Foix]

I'm starting to wonder if the Amyr and Chandrian and even the watchers/angels are not what we all think they might be, given several reasons: (1) stories are made up of lies, as is said often in the books; (2) the color version of the Amyr I saw on Pat's blog. I'm rereading the books to see if anything else points in this direction, but I'm starting to wonder if I'm building this out of air. Sigh.

(2) the color version of the Amyr I saw on Pat's blog.

Where exactly is this, I've looked but I cannot find it.

[thistlepong]

I think you are taking Tehlinism too seriously

Are you familiar with the amusing idiom where the pot calls the kettle black? I welcome you as a brother.

I think one of the form of words used by Marten was the right one. Reading the scene closely you can actually work it out...

Btw this chimes well with Skarpi 2 and Aleph's words

"No. All personal things must be set aside, and you must punish or reward only what you yourself witness from this day forth".

Cinder himself refers to Tehlu and pals as "You are as good as a watcher, Haliax" in the troupe murder scene.

Clearly witnessing or watching is key to the role that they play. the chapter heading is- "Tehlu's Watchful Eye" !

If it were a simple phrase Tehlu's existence would be very tedious.

I searched "watch over me." Six of ten uses, in a row, are Marten. It looks like a liturgy.

I'ma stand firm. One must recite the prayer in order to actually call Tehlu & Pals.

* I bet

Tehus antausa ehu

translates to "Tehlu watch over me."

Thistle, I think you are taking Tehlinism too seriously in assuming that Tehlu is a scourge of mankind, Old Testament God kind of figure. Skarpi is a much better source, and he actually contradicts settled Tehlin dogma very convincingly in his conversation with Erlus.

In terms of agency and mobility, they have to be present as witnesses. That I think is the key. And they can punish or reward but not wage pre-emptive warfare the way the Amyr do.

Ascribing primacy to any of the stories, particularly the least complete one, is an error.

Using a detail to support a point and dismissing the bulk of the story is an error.

Tehlu as presented in the entire narrative coalesces to a fella with incredibly high standards for who is and is not just. He is a ruach with superpowers who incarnated a thousand years ago. During that time he traveled on foot judging what he saw, harshly, and founded a church: agency within constraint.

About Dagon. I thought he was being set up as a Gregor Clegane-Randyll Tarly combo figure by Rothfuss and as a possible antagonist for Kvothe. I never seriously treated him as an Amyr. I mean I get he and the Amyr both like burning things down, but that's the only shared characteristic I see.

Hard eyes, shaven head, chainmail, willingness to raze a dozen villages and burn a thousand acres to catch a few bandits, and then he loses an eye like the founder of the Amyr... The parallell imagery reverberates.

I don't seriously treat him as an Amyr any more than I do Auri as one of the Seven.

The second is unbelieveably tempting 'casue it sews up the whole heart's desire thing.

Merihathor: The greater good is also the lesser evil?

[Gaston de Foix]

I bet Tehus antausa ehu translates to "Tehlu watch over me."

Ascribing primacy to any of the stories, particularly the least complete one, is an error.

Using a detail to support a point and dismissing the bulk of the story is an error.

Tehlu as presented in the entire narrative coalesces to a fella with incredibly high standards for who is and is not just. He is a ruach with superpowers who incarnated a thousand years ago. During that time he traveled on foot judging what he saw, harshly, and founded a church: agency within constraint.

Merihathor: The greater good is also the lesser evil?

see the question I want to ask you is, would the phrase Tehus antausa ehu be Temic?

I don't think there's a liturgy. What would it be? Perhaps you can only truly call Tehlu in circumstances of need.

I don't know how we can come to the conclusion that Tehlu formed the Tehlin church. The church is an organic growth arising from a misunderstanding of theology.

[Merihathor]

Merihathor: The greater good is also the lesser evil?

I really don't know if this edges onto spoiler or not, given that the color image seems to be missing from his site now, so I'll just put my response in spoiler text just in case:

Or even that their roles are reversed, or not what has been shared about them thus far in the books by the characters? The Amyr are the Chandrian, and vice versa. In the color version of the Amyr artwork, the fire on the brand he carries is is blue, as is the fire in the house behind him. Now, the draccus Kvothe killed was also blue, and seemed to be work of the Chandrian until Kvothe and Denna found out that it was the draccus, so I really don't know if that was a red herring or if there is some other reason why fire would turn blue; it doesn't always show up as blue around the Chandrian. Maybe this has to do with the nature of how the fire is called up for both the draccus and the Chandrian (or Amyr...I don't know any more). In any case, I'm trying to sift through the books to see if any answers lie there.

[thistlepong]

I really don't know if this edges onto spoiler or not, given that the color image seems to be missing from his site now, so I'll just put my response in spoiler text just in case:

Or even that their roles are reversed, or not what has been shared about them thus far in the books by the characters? The Amyr are the Chandrian, and vice versa. In the color version of the Amyr artwork, the fire on the brand he carries is is blue, as is the fire in the house behind him. Now, the draccus Kvothe killed was also blue, and seemed to be work of the Chandrian until Kvothe and Denna found out that it was the draccus, so I really don't know if that was a red herring or if there is some other reason why fire would turn blue; it doesn't always show up as blue around the Chandrian. Maybe this has to do with the nature of how the fire is called up for both the draccus and the Chandrian (or Amyr...I don't know any more). In any case, I'm trying to sift through the books to see if any answers lie there.

Meh. Spoilers has been in the title of the thread for like 1500 posts. Folks know what they're getting into.

Nonetheless, readers can draw similar conclusions, or at least ask the same questions, without the illustration.

With the materials presented in NotW a Chandrian attack can be faked.

The curse that ends "Lanre Turned," Your own name will be turned against you, that you shall have no peace. This is my doom upon you and all who follow you, supports an inversion of roles.

I'll leave it there, but you're definitely not building it out of air.

see the question I want to ask you is, would the phrase Tehus antausa ehu be Temic?

It is Temic, which is confusing as... heck. It's going in the Errata.

[Gaston de Foix]

Meh. Spoilers has been in the title of the thread for like 1500 posts. Folks know what they're getting into.

Nonetheless, readers can draw similar conclusions, or at least ask the same questions, without the illustration.

With the materials presented in NotW a Chandrian attack can be faked.

The curse that ends "Lanre Turned," Your own name will be turned against you, that you shall have no peace. This is my doom upon you and all who follow you, supports an inversion of roles.

I'll leave it there, but you're definitely not building it out of air.

It is Temic, which is confusing as... heck. It's going in the Errata.

weren't you going to a reading today?

[Spaceman Hobbes]

Alright, so the idea here is that the Chandrian exist to oppose the extremist Amyr(and maybe are good guys?)? So....

Larne and whoever helped him betray Selitos' city to the Amyr, were then cursed by Selitos to oppose the Amyr.

The AMYR are actually going around killing people to cover up the purpose of the Chandrian and the true nature of the Amyr.

The Chandrian are the 'villains' in songs and bedtime stories because the Amyr have better PR.

Lorren tells us that the Amyr grew out of travelling judges in the earlier Arturian Empire. What if this was partially true? The Amyr choose the act as travelling judges and eventually formalized the order in the public eye.

If the Amyr were travelers both before and after their Arturian prominence, could the have transitioned back to their original disguise after their downfall? (namely, tinkers)

If this is the case, could Ben be an Amyr and the target of the Chandrian attack on Kvothe's Troupe(this would be Cinder lied when he said, 'someone's parents have been singing the entirely wrong type of songs.')

Alright, that's a lot of wild speculation, but I think it covers a lot of implications of the Amyr not being the superheroes from the stories.

[Thaykora]

Hard eyes, shaven head, chainmail, willingness to raze a dozen villages and burn a thousand acres to catch a few bandits, and then he loses an eye like the founder of the Amyr... The parallell imagery reverberates.

I don't seriously treat him as an Amyr any more than I do Auri as one of the Seven.

It is worth it to consider that Caudicus deliberately caused the loss of Dagon's eye (or that Stapes tells Kvothe this) to make a point.

Also, Auri seems to repeatedly bring to mind Ordal from Skarpi's story; explaining lots of her oddities. Elodin seems to approve of Kvothe's choice in names, so it might be worth noting: Au is the shorthand for gold, and Or is Old French for gold; both derived from the way the latin word for gold is pronounced: aurum

Or even that their roles are reversed, or not what has been shared about them thus far in the books by the characters? The Amyr are the Chandrian, and vice versa. In the color version of the Amyr artwork, the fire on the brand he carries is is blue, as is the fire in the house behind him.

I've noticed the role-reversal myself, but I'd like to see this color version! I'll dig around and see what I can find, if you can find it, that'd be awesome.

Now, the draccus Kvothe killed was also blue, and seemed to be work of the Chandrian until Kvothe and Denna found out that it was the draccus, so I really don't know if that was a red herring or if there is some other reason why fire would turn blue

Denna says the bodies were cut by blades if I remember right. Although you dont have tons of reason to trust her.

Blue flame is said to come from "coal-gas", which is likely referring to natural gas / methane. Kvothe says that when mixed with arsenic it can ignite, or the draccus could make a small spark like eels do. Personally, I think there is a connection between the draccus, the Chandrian, and dennerlings of lore.

it doesn't always show up as blue around the Chandrian. Maybe this has to do with the nature of how the fire is called up for both the draccus and the Chandrian (or Amyr...I don't know any more). In any case, I'm trying to sift through the books to see if any answers lie there.

It's not always blue because the blue is caused by Cyphus. He makes the torches blue in one of the Taborlin stories.

Speaking of Taborlin stories, I'm fairly certain that in Marten's story of Taborlin is telling us that the key, coin and candle are actually Taborlin's cloak, staff and sword (if the order is respective). Given Taborlin's staff "held much of his power:, would that make Kvothe's tools his Shaed, lute and Caesura? What does that imply for the 'candle' reference in the Lackless riddles?

Alright, so the idea here is that the Chandrian exist to oppose the extremist Amyr(and maybe are good guys?)? ...

If the Amyr were travelers both before and after their Arturian prominence, could the have transitioned back to their original disguise after their downfall? (namely, tinkers)

If this is the case, could Ben be an Amyr and the target of the Chandrian attack on Kvothe's Troupe

I agree that Tinkers seem to play an important role in the series, but I only see vague hints of a connection between them and various groups. Their interaction with Kvothe has had a huge influence on how Kvothe's tale evolved. That may answer questions about the two scenes Mandy mentioned:

However, in each of these books there is one section of fantastical CRAP that doesn't seem like it belongs in the book. I feel like they absolutely didn't need to be there, both for the furtherance of the storyline and for the bulk of the book. In The Name of the Wind, it's the draccus. I hated this part of the book. In Wise Man's Fear, it's the chapters with Felurian. ...

If you look at what the Tinker outside Trebon offers, and what Kvothe takes (note that the Tinker seems to have been slightly upset by his choice), you can't help but see how the lode-stone affects the outcome. Kvothe turns down wine, to Denna's dismay, and rope which was also sought by Denna and potentially used to climb on top the greystone. The shirt he picks instead gets torn, and ends up being grabbed by Denna to pull him ontop the greystone.

The Tinker before the Eld scenes gives him the knife which he uses in the bandit scene. More importantly, he tempts Kvothe with ink and paper and suggests trading capes. The ink and paper itself doesn't prove obviously useful for his note to Denna, but later he writes to the Maer about his delay. But without the ink/paper temptation, Kvothe would not have swapped cloaks. The significance of this comes here: Marten lifted up the threadbare cloak I had bought from the tinker. ... “It was caught on a branch. ... If it had been made of stronger stuff he might still be with us here tonight.”

[Who's on Third]

Maybe fire turns blue around cyphus because he has gas? That was Kvothe's theory on the Draccus...

As for my identity, I was going to come up with a clever poem that rhymed with "Manet" in denial, but I still can't decide whether to pronounce it with a hard or silent "t", so clearly I am neither PR nor Manet...

[Who's on Third]

Thay, don't forget the shoe wax/ wet shoes re the tinker too

[Thaykora]

Thay, don't forget the shoe wax/ wet shoes re the tinker too

Ahh yes. The tinker before The Eld also sells him candles, but Kvothe turns down the rubbing wax to keep his boots dry despite the Tinker's warning of rain.

Not buying boot wax

In regards to their influence on the story, the boot wax he turned down would have kept his feet dry. In Chapter 89, Kvothe notes that his feet had been wet for days and that made his argument with Dedan, over the lack of fire, so much worse. Dedan's unruly behavior became an issue again in the next chapter...but luckily Kvothe did buy the candles.

Buy Candles

The candles were used to make a mommet/simulacra, which he ends up using on Dedan as a small trick to get his cooperation. Dedan then listens to Kvothe's orders, which may have been the reason Dedan and Hespe are captured by the bandits. Without their capture acting as both a distraction and a catalyst, Kvothe's rampage may have failed, or the attack may have never happened.

I won't be surprised if the catalyst leading to Tempi/Kvothe's relationship also has curious roots.

[Kettricken]

I've been lurking, finally created an account so I could weigh in on the thistle/grin show!

I like this latest tinker theory, hadn't considered the nuances to that one.

I waited a long time for someone to say what I had been guessing, that Denna is (or is related to) the wind,

with the ever changing name plus her capriciousness, PLUS the first time Kvothe calls the wind, he has been

pondering Denna while watching the pattern of the wind in the fountain. Maybe she helps wake his sleeping mind there?

Also, and this is my biggest wild speculation: Kvothe and Denna are Luke and Leia!!! Not sure how that would be explained, but I thought for sure after the Felurian episode they would get it on, or at least, you know, kiss... Yet they remain chaste with one another; just seems strange to me. Add in their similarities (music, good with languages, attractive to every darn member of the opposite sex). I would love to hear others takes on this theory...

[Gaston de Foix]

I've been lurking, finally created an account so I could weigh in on the thistle/grin show!

I like this latest tinker theory, hadn't considered the nuances to that one.

I waited a long time for someone to say what I had been guessing, that Denna is (or is related to) the wind,

with the ever changing name plus her capriciousness, PLUS the first time Kvothe calls the wind, he has been

pondering Denna while watching the pattern of the wind in the fountain. Maybe she helps wake his sleeping mind there?

Also, and this is my biggest wild speculation: Kvothe and Denna are Luke and Leia!!! Not sure how that would be explained, but I thought for sure after the Felurian episode they would get it on, or at least, you know, kiss... Yet they remain chaste with one another; just seems strange to me. Add in their similarities (music, good with languages, attractive to every darn member of the opposite sex). I would love to hear others takes on this theory...

It's really the Thistle show. I'm just his sancho panza B)

Did anyone go the reading at Iowa with PR tonight?

[Kettricken]

Oh yeah - after the genius insight into the "Not tally a lot less", I surmised that Ben's inscription of "Remember your father's song" refers to THAT song, not the Lanre one. So Ben knew who his mom was...

[Merihathor]

I still haven't found a link to the Amyr in color, which is unfortunate. Moral: save nifty things such as this to a hard drive for future reference ;-) In any case, another thought related to this color image occurred to me tonight as I read--perhaps the roles of the Amyr/Chandrian as presented currently in story and memory are somewhat accurate. However, did the Amyr then become "corrupt" over time by learning/using some of the powers of the Chandrian (blue fire being one) in order to augment their defense of their "for the greater good" creed? That this is another reason why they were sealed away?

It's not always blue because the blue is caused by Cyphus. He makes the torches blue in one of the Taborlin stories.

Thanks, Thaykora. I failed to specify and instead lumped, although they weren't lumped in my mind. Good idea to clarify; muddy waters are rarely beneficial to discussions :-)

Another thought:

Do the Edema Ruh hail from Faerie in some distant past, or are they descended from the line of people that left for Faerie when the war sprung up between the Namers/Shapers? Did they get stuck outside of Faerie for some reason, or do they feel a connection to Faerie still, and so they honor this connection/heritage by stopping at waystones (sometimes believed as doors/roads to Faerie, especially at the full moon), even though the reasons for honoring has slipped out of conscious memory? Another example to support my weak hypothesis: Kvothe's eyes change color with his mood, as remarked on by several characters, and Bast's eyes do as well (I can't recall if Felurian's change, but I would assume so, if this is indeed a characteristic of the Faen).

Although, this Faerie blood that Kvothe may or may not have might have come from the Lockless side, as well. I realize that this might be my subconscious mind fitting together "lock" and "door," however.

After thinking about this last night, I thought maybe I was off, given that Kvothe (at least) handles iron. Nevermind :-)

I also wondered if Naming becomes Shaping when you change the name of something (Kvothe to Kote; Denna to Dianne, etc.) or try to capture something by using its name (i.e. Iax and the moon), or if you weave true names into stories to then shape the world around you, or a combination. Stories become memories become truth, or at least shades of truth, so by using one level of names, you shape the world indirectly...especially if you can weed out all the "incorrect" stories (as the Chandrian seem to). I came across this thought when Denna was asking whether or not writing something down and then having this read would make the words into truth (or something along those lines).

Ugh...I'm not sure if I'm making sense. Very tired :-) Sorry if I've muddled this hopelessly!

[thistlepong]

I asked the language question.

In short, attentive readers can translate the the languages. They're not fully developed like Tolkien's, but the words aren't random. There was a linguist in the crowd who followed up by mentioning that his efforts to make them sound like languages were spot on. She was surprised he intuited his way to that.

Regarding the use of actual foreign words he denies it. He used Carceret as an example. A reader at another signing asked if he knew Latin; apparently it means something like "to imprison." His concern was making sure people didn't read "Car Car Et." He mentioned that being well read could have exposed him to words. Taken with his explanation of shamble men from the blog, chances are archaic English is intended while Latin, Dutch, Hindi, &c. are not.

He passed around copies of The Adventures of the Princess and Mister Wiffle and um... had story time. Then he read through it again, pointing out the details that folks miss or have no context for the first time through. Then he rather archly said there was a lesson there.

My wife asked who his favorite unreliable narrator was, having just wrapped Midnight's Children with her students. He doesn't believe in reliable narrators. He responded with, roughly, "That assumes some narrators are reliable," and talked a little bit about The Princess Bride and some early versions of The Hobbit..

[AverageGuy]

I'm willing to rethink whether these sections were good, but they were undoubtedly necessary. Both of them describe events from Kvothe's intital boast and both yeild a wealth of details we don't get anywhere else.

I don't know that the draccus was necessary considering Rothfuss didn't originally have it in there and only included the scene at his editor's request. The initial boast is from the frame story, so it was probably written later. The Chandrian stuff doesn't really matter, we already know they each have a sign and get more concrete information from the Adem, the existence of Master Ash does.

[Tyytan]

Hi guys, first post on this particular forum though I've been discussing the books in plenty of places. First off, you guys are amazing with the sheer intricate details you've found. One thing that's bugging me, and I'm sure it's been discussed in the countless pages of these threads, is the thing that originally 'killed' Lanre in the battle. Anyone any ideas what it could be? Here is the passage:

"Lanre was always where the fight was thickest, where he was needed most. His sword never left his hand or rested in its sheath. At the very end of things, covered in blood amid a field of corpses, Lanre stood alone against a terrible foe. It was a great beast with scales of black iron, whose breath was a darkness that smothered men. Lanre fought the beast and killed it. Lanre brought victory to his side, but he bought it with his life.

After the battle was finished and the enemy was set beyond the doors of stone, survivors found Lanre’s body, cold and lifeless near the beast he had slain. Word of Lanre’s death spread quickly, covering the field like a blanket of despair. They had won the battle and turned the tide of the war, but each of them felt cold inside. The small flame of hope that each of them cherished began to flicker and fade. Their hopes had hung on Lanre, and Lanre was dead."

Apparently it's beyond the doors of stone, presumably spooning with Iax if it's the same doors. Perhaps it was Iax that Lanre fought, hence him changing his name to Haliax, and so it's because of him Iax is behind the doors of stone. Perhaps.