The Wise Man's Fear IV (SPOILERS)

[Dremora]

I like the theory of the Ctheah being Incanis, I already thought that too. But maybe there is more to the similarities between Incanis and Haliax.

The Ctheah said that Cinder did him a bad turn once Maybe that bad turn was to do with him being caught as Incanis or maybe its somehow Lanre in the tree now. If Cinder somehow unbound Incanis and bound Lanre there instead I don't know, its a weak theory with no evidence.

[ShanRawr]

I noticed a couple things regarding Bast I wanted to share. (One of which relates to alchemy :stunned: )

• Kvothe is teaching Bast Alchemy
  
  Cellum Tinture
  is the only book he keeps from Caudicus's library. He gifts it to Deevi shortly after he returns to the University 'cause it's a useful resource for an alchemist without access to the archives.

  
  

• Bast has enemies
  
  Among the decorations adorning his room, "Rings of horn and leather and woven grass." it might be nothing.

  
  

Kvothe learns Alchemy. I missed that before. Oops.

He sure has a lot to do in book 3. I can't wait to see how PR pulls it all off.

[Who's on Third]

Merihathor - great post...the alchemical connections in the book definitely strike a chord.

I don't think the "doors of stone" lead to the Fae necessarily. Perhaps a part of the Fae that is more like a prison. Here is why:

[parts cut out for clarity]

Felurian: 'he stole the moon and with it came the war.'

Kvothe: "Who was it?....Was he of the faen courts?"

Felurian: "no. as I said, this was before the fae. the first and greatest of the shapers."

Kvothe: "What was his name?"

Felurian: "no calling of names here. I will not speak of that one, though he is shut beyond the doors of stone."

This strongly implies that "he" is not in the Fae with Felurian.

[Board_Drifter]

Agreed. Merihathor, that was truly an insightful analysis.

[Merihathor]

Merihathor - great post...the alchemical connections in the book definitely strike a chord.

I don't think the "doors of stone" lead to the Fae necessarily. Perhaps a part of the Fae that is more like a prison. Here is why:

[parts cut out for clarity]

Felurian: 'he stole the moon and with it came the war.'

Kvothe: "Who was it?....Was he of the faen courts?"

Felurian: "no. as I said, this was before the fae. the first and greatest of the shapers."

Kvothe: "What was his name?"

Felurian: "no calling of names here. I will not speak of that one, though he is shut beyond the doors of stone."

This strongly implies that "he" is not in the Fae with Felurian.

Good point :-)

Regarding Aleph being Skarpi:

Aleph is the name of the first letter of the Proto-Canaanite language, thought to mean "ox" in West Semitic (I will come back to "ox" in a moment). Some additional information in regards to the Hebrew form of the letter (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_%28letter%29):

• 'Aleph is also the first letter of the Hebrew word emet, which means truth. In Jewish mythology it was the letter aleph that was carved into the head of the golem which ultimately gave it life.
  
• Aleph also begins the three words that make up God's mystical name in Exodus, I Am who Am (in Hebrew, 'Ehyeh 'Asher 'Ehyeh אהיה אׁשר אהיה), and 'aleph is an important part of mystical amulets and formulas.
  
• Aleph in Jewish mysticism represents the oneness of God. The letter can been seen as being composed of an upper yud, a lower yud, and a vav leaning on a diagonal. The upper yud represents the hidden and ineffible aspects of God while the lower yud represents God's revelation and presence in the world. The vav ("hook") connects the two realms.
  
• Jewish mysticism relates Aleph to the element of air, the magician (number 1) of the major arcana of the tarot deck,[1] and the Scintillating Intelligence (#11) of the path between Kether and Chokmah in the Tree of the Sephiroth.
  

On the last point in the above list--The Tree of the Sephiroth combines the two trees in the Garden of Eden, the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, thus connecting indirectly to the caduceus and Yggdrassil. The caduceus has two snakes, which could symbolize two paths or two trees; in any case, a duality. Yggdrassil connects the earth and sky, so again, where two combine and meet. In alchemy, we have the metal Mercury, where the two opposites of iron and copper meet and marry (notice: iron and copper). Kether and Chokmah are two spheres located on the Tree of Life diagram: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_life_%28Kabbalah%29. Kether is the crown, associated with perfection and God. Chokmah is the sphere of wisdom. Reading about each sphere on Wikipedia might be interesting and I'll just link those:

Kether: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keter

Chokmah: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokmah_%28Kabbalah%29

Further, from aleph we get alpha; they are etymologically related. To keep this brief, I would encourage folks to read the "History and symbolism" section in this Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha. In short, alpha symbolizes creation, God and also connects to runes (sygaldry).

Now, back to aleph and "ox." The ox has symbolized many things over time and across various mythologies, which isn't surprising, as domesticated cattle was one of the lynchpins of civilization. One common thread across all cultures is the duality of the ox--bull and cow. The bull a symbol of male fertility, the sun god (see Apis and Mithra) and power through the male. The cow a symbol of the moon and feminine power (Hathor as one example). Many bull cults have arisen over time, although one in particular might apply to Rothfuss' story: that of Poseidon. Early on in Greek religion, oxen were the prime sacrifice for Poseidon (he later became associated with the horse and his association with the ox dwindled). Poseidon was seen as the god of the seas, as well as governing earthquakes. The ox (and later, the horse) when running sounds much like the rumbling of the earth, of thunder, and thus why these animals became associated with earth and ocean deities over time. Ocean imagery related to Skarpi:

NTW, hardcover, page 173:

The first thing I saw on entering the Half-Mast

(notice the name of the inn he's in)

was Skarpi. He was sitting on a tall stool at the bar, an old man with eyes like

diamonds

and the body of a

driftwood

scarecrow. He was thin and weathered with thick white hair on his arms and face and head. The whiteness of it stood out from his deep brown tan, making him seem splashed with

wave foam

.

The old man nodded almost imperceptably to the bartender. "Fallows Red."

"So what would everyone like to hear about today?" Skarpi

rumbled. His deep voice rolling out like distant thunder.

Diamonds have a unique chemical lattice, called the diamond cubic (a square pattern, so four corners). The brilliance and clarity of the diamond has been linked with fire and perfection over time, and I think this use of the word is deliberate. I'm reminded of the work of alchemists to obtain perfection.

Regarding Fallow's Red, this is simply personal interpretation--I thought of the Odyssey and its phrase, "the wine-dark sea."

So why would Aleph take the name Sceop/Skarpi? I think this is a play on words, which is highly appropriate, given that he said to be one of the greatest namers (perhaps the primary one). A skald/scop in Nordic culture was a bard, and this is where the English language gets such words as "scoff" and "scald." Skarpi certainly scoffs/mocks the Tehlin priests in NTW (quotes below). Bards were not only historians and keepers of stories, but also creators of satire. In Celtic culture, the bard was a lower class of priest as well, with the highest level being the druid; I find the connection to trees here interesting. Regardless, see this article for more information on the bard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bard

The wise old man/beggar is a common theme in mythology, where a god or someone of power takes a lowly form in order to test the hearts of men. A classic example is Zeus and Odin.

As to why I think Skarpi is Aleph:

NTW, hardcover, pages 189-192

"God have mercy on you," he [the Justice] said in a cold, trembling voice. Skarpi looked at the Justice mutely for a moment. Then he started to laugh. Great, booming, helpless laughter from the bottom of his soul...The storyteller's eyes rolled around to focus on the Justice. "Mercy on

my

soul." He gave a weak croak that might have been a chuckle on a better day. "You don't know how funny that sounds coming from you."

"..."I have

friends in the church

who can help me, but there's nothing you can do here. Go."

The mocking tone Skarpi has above towards the priests fits his name in that sense. Also, he is a storyteller, so fits his name in this manner as well. The fact that a beggar chose the name Sceop in Kvothe's story in WMF fits the form of a god or someone of power in mythology, and the fact that he offers a story to the Edema Ruh also fits his name. Stories are shaping, of sorts, and shaping is a stretch away from naming. In any case, I think they are all the same person.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

If Aleph is Skarpi than his 'friends' in the church could be the angels he created after the creation war.

"Ok, thanks for arresting me. Teuhla will be here in about five minutes to roast you alive for this."

Here a thought I just had, we all assume that the creation war, the conflict between shapers and namers, the corners and fae, is a thing of the past. What if it isn't? What if the war transitioned from being a 'hot war' with legendary battles and sacked cities, to being 'cold war' fought with subterfuge in the shadows. Kvothe story is the story of how he accidentally heated the war back up, and, assuming that the next trilogy features Kvothe, the story of how the war reaches a peaceful resolution.

[Board_Drifter]

If Aleph is Skarpi than his 'friends' in the church could be the angels he created after the creation war.

"Ok, thanks for arresting me. Teuhla will be here in about five minutes to roast you alive for this."

Here a thought I just had, we all assume that the creation war, the conflict between shapers and namers, the corners and fae, is a thing of the past. What if it isn't? What if the war transitioned from being a 'hot war' with legendary battles and sacked cities, to being 'cold war' fought with subterfuge in the shadows. Kvothe story is the story of how he accidentally heated the war back up, and, assuming that the next trilogy features Kvothe, the story of how the war reaches a peaceful resolution.

I suspect that Rothfuss will be done with Kvothe after "The Doors of Stone"

[Merihathor]

I wondered if anyone else noticed the draccus and how it might be the ouroboros, which would be appropriate if so, given the alchemical undertones in the books.

Why I think this--its scales are made of iron and its breath is blue, so may be an expression of copper. A blue flame often indicates the presence of copper in chemistry. Thus, the draccus combines the two alchemical opposites of iron (mars) and copper (venus), so thus is an ouroboros: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros

Also, I was struck by the imagery and symbolism in the Tree of Sephiroth, which I talked about above. Rothfuss seems to have interwoven music and musical philosophy into this books as well, and the Tree and it's Seed of Life and the related Flower of Life. Salient points about these symbols:

• First stage: Seed of Life, with seven spheres joined together to created an octahedron (image: http://www.ka-gold-jewelry.com/images/seed-of-life.gif)
  
• Second stage: Egg of Life, created from the same motion as the Seed of Life (image: http://www.ka-gold-jewelry.com/images/diagram-flower-of-life.jpg). This is diagram 8 on the image linked. The three-dimensional form (diagram 4) looks eerily like the pole figure of a diamond, incidentally (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DiamondPoleFigure111.png). This structure also forms the basis for music, as the distances between the spheres is identical to the distances between the tones and the half tones in music. (from this source: http://www.ka-gold-jewelry.com/p-articles/flower-of-life.php)
  
• Third stage: Flower of Life (diagram 8a and 8b).
  
• Other stages: Fruit of Life and Metatron Cube (diagram 8c).

The flower of life reminded me of the flower on the Cthaeh tree, which was a panacea (tangent: Panacea was a daughter of Asclepius, which seems appropriate for the story). I was also reminded by this shape of the iron wheel by which Tehlu bound Encanis.

Even Pythagoras seems to make an entrance in the books. Among other works, Pythagoras developed the relationship between math, geometry and music (a brief discussion here: http://members.cox.net/mathmistakes/music.htm). Looking at the dimensions of the pits used to bury demons, the first one listed struck me as it's a ratio that Pythagoras termed a fifth (roughly the note D): 20 x 15 = 4 x 3 = 4/3:

NTW, page 161, hardcover:

Tehlu gathered the people who were watching and chose a priest among them. Then he set them to dig a great pit in the center of the town, fifteen feet wide and twenty feet deep.

Some cool tidbits that tie in:

The plant associated with Aesclepius is the milkweed plant, which is the same plant Elodin uses in one of his naming lectures ;-)

Kilvin's name struck me, as it reminded me of kelvin, the unit of measurement used in physical sciences (such as alchemy's cousin, chemistry). Fits an artificer, I thought.

One final comment, and then I think I'm done--

The story of the Lethani and how it was created as shared by Shehyn. The names of the two who create the Lethani, one directly and one indirectly, is Aethe (the man who shoots Rethe and then later gathers her stories that become the Lethani) and Rethe (the woman who was shot by Aethe). Tehlu discusses a path in Trapis' story, and the first to cross the line in the dirt scribed by Tehlu is a man named Rengen, who is renamed by Tehlu as Wereth. I think these are all related. I don't have time to flesh this out, but I can come back later and do so if anyone is interested.

[Who's on Third]

One final comment, and then I think I'm done--

The story of the Lethani and how it was created as shared by Shehyn. The names of the two who create the Lethani, one directly and one indirectly, is Aethe (the man who shoots Rethe and then later gathers her stories that become the Lethani) and Rethe (the woman who was shot by Aethe). Tehlu discusses a path in Trapis' story, and the first to cross the line in the dirt scribed by Tehlu is a man named Rengen, who is renamed by Tehlu as Wereth. I think these are all related. I don't have time to flesh this out, but I can come back later and do so if anyone is interested.

Great sourcing on all of your posts, I'm learning a lot. You must have some serious kind of background in mythology, or did you research all of this independently?

Thanks for all the great material. I never would have connected Aethe and Rethe to Rengen and Wereth....would like to hear your reasons. I see the similarity between "Wereth" and "Rethe" but the cores of the stories don't really jive. I've always thought it would be great to sit down and make a chart of all of the names in the books, especially in the stories, to see if there are any parallels, just haven't had the time. I've especially wondered if we've seen a Perial character floating around.

[Merihathor]

Great sourcing on all of your posts, I'm learning a lot. You must have some serious kind of background in mythology, or did you research all of this independently?

Thanks for all the great material. I never would have connected Aethe and Rethe to Rengen and Wereth....would like to hear your reasons. I see the similarity between "Wereth" and "Rethe" but the cores of the stories don't really jive. I've always thought it would be great to sit down and make a chart of all of the names in the books, especially in the stories, to see if there are any parallels, just haven't had the time. I've especially wondered if we've seen a Perial character floating around.

I'm an Egyptologist by trade, but also have a passion for mythology, thus my background regarding the myths.

When I get some time later, I'll come back and see if I can connect Aethe and Rethe to Wereth, although I'm not sure that there is a connection really. I'm wondering if I'm simply *wanting* to see a connection, so we'll see.

[unJon]

Good stuff, Merihathor. To add fuel to your Skarpi = Aleph theory.

1) Skarpi knows Kvothe's name. Possibly a sign that Skarpi is a powerful namer.

2) Skarpi seems to make Kvothe and the other kid invisible to the Telhu priests. The other time we've seen something like that is the Skarpi 2 story, when Aleph makes the angels and they fade from human sight.

[Ski the Swift]

I suspect that Rothfuss will be done with Kvothe after "The Doors of Stone"

I am of the opposite opinion of that. Rothfuss is building Kvothe and Bast up for something. I was under an impression that the retelling of Kvothe's younger days and all his stories was meant to be in one book so he could then continue onto another, newer tale.

[Sylvester]

Good stuff, Merihathor. To add fuel to your Skarpi = Aleph theory.

1) Skarpi knows Kvothe's name. Possibly a sign that Skarpi is a powerful namer.

2) Skarpi seems to make Kvothe and the other kid invisible to the Telhu priests. The other time we've seen something like that is the Skarpi 2 story, when Aleph makes the angels and they fade from human sight.

I really love the Skarpi=Aleph theory, although I'm not really convinced of its veracity because of a quote in tNotW:

It's when Chronicler says to Kvothe that he's in a way Skarpi's colleague. And Kvothe says "Rumormongers, both of you", which seems a wierd way to refer to a potential God...But on the other side, he's supposed to have "talked to Gods", so I assumed it would be Tehlu, but it could be Aleph for sure (or even both, since it's Gods). Of course, Skarpi might be Aleph but Kvothe doesn't know that, but that would be really wierd. In the beginning of the book, Kvothe starts with ""In the beginning, the world was spun out of the nameless void by Aleph, who gave everything a name. Or, depending on the version of the tale, ...". To me, it means that Kvothe isn't familiar with Aleph, since if he was, he would not have started his story that way. I don't know if I'm clear, but what I'm trying to say is that if Kvothe knew that Skarpi was Aleph, he would not have acted the way he did. There is no perfect quote in the book to show that, but my reasoning is, if that was true, he would have acted differently...

I agree that Skarpi is more than what he seems, but I don't think that he's Aleph, although I would really love that to happen.

[Vordare]

Vordare, that's an interesting take. Thanks for sharing it. To me, the Four Plate Door feels too distant from Vintas to be the Lackless Door. Their holdings would have been unimaginably vast (equivalent to the Aturan Empire) for that to be the case. And the rhyme degrades according to distance traveled. In Vintas it's about a door while in the eastern Commonwealth it's full of innuendo.

I thought so as well when I had the idea. That 2k miles is a great distance. But it is mentioned that the family is several thousands of years old. So my thought is that back when the real Amyr were active and fighting the Chandrian that the old families got together and created the University. One of those families being the Lackless family. And that while the University was made a contribution to the University was the 4-plate door by one of the Lackless' ancestors which is why it was named after them. And as to why the rhyme degrades I have two thoughts on that. 1) The University seems more respected among the nobles on the other side of the world then any village near it. And 2) The Lackless family is from 2k miles away originally so maybe someone there knew about the door better then locals even did and the rhyme was actually created over there.

So my thought wasn't that the family was the sole owner/ creator of the University only that they were part of its creation.

[Board_Drifter]

I am of the opposite opinion of that. Rothfuss is building Kvothe and Bast up for something. I was under an impression that the retelling of Kvothe's younger days and all his stories was meant to be in one book so he could then continue onto another, newer tale.

Rothfuss has said in several interviews that he is excited to move on to different stories after the trilogy is completed. Whether or not he will return to these characters some day is up to speculation.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

Rothfuss has said in several interviews that he is excited to move on to different stories after the trilogy is completed. Whether or not he will return to these characters some day is up to speculation.

Um....different stories. Not necessarily different characters. Kingkiller feels like a prelude to something bigger, and if Kvothe survives Doors of Stone I think the safe bet is that his story will continue in the next trilogy.

Although it would be VERY interesting if he told Kvothe's story from someone else's POV.

[Merihathor]

I really love the Skarpi=Aleph theory, although I'm not really convinced of its veracity because of a quote in tNotW:

It's when Chronicler says to Kvothe that he's in a way Skarpi's colleague. And Kvothe says "Rumormongers, both of you", which seems a wierd way to refer to a potential God...But on the other side, he's supposed to have "talked to Gods", so I assumed it would be Tehlu, but it could be Aleph for sure (or even both, since it's Gods). Of course, Skarpi might be Aleph but Kvothe doesn't know that, but that would be really wierd. In the beginning of the book, Kvothe starts with ""In the beginning, the world was spun out of the nameless void by Aleph, who gave everything a name. Or, depending on the version of the tale, ...". To me, it means that Kvothe isn't familiar with Aleph, since if he was, he would not have started his story that way. I don't know if I'm clear, but what I'm trying to say is that if Kvothe knew that Skarpi was Aleph, he would not have acted the way he did. There is no perfect quote in the book to show that, but my reasoning is, if that was true, he would have acted differently...

I agree that Skarpi is more than what he seems, but I don't think that he's Aleph, although I would really love that to happen.

I understand your points and you could very well be correct. I currently stand by my interpretation, however. Kvothe is a storyteller and has appreciation for the elaboration and even lies that go into stories at times; this distortion is what makes stories good in his mind. Only sharing one version of a story because one is more true than the other would contradict this, I think. Further, I don't get the impression that Kvothe reveres any god, whether Tehlu or Aleph, so the way he gently mocks both Chronicler and Skarpi doesn't bother me or seem out of character. Instead, this mocking seems highly appropriate, considering that both are bards of a sort and this is one aspect of the bard--to create satire and to mock those in power.

Others have labeled Aleph and Tehlu as gods in the stories, but this doesn't mean that they really are gods. Some stories we're given are from the perspective of the church, so that colors word choice and interpretation of events within those stories. We're then given another version of the stories that do not label these people as gods. So what then is the truth, and why should Kvothe, being Edema Ruh, adhere only to that facet?

I'm not discounting your interpretation by any stretch. Again, I can certainly see why you arrived at that conclusion. I'm just sharing why I continue to lean towards my interpretation :-) I'm looking forward to the third book; hopefully some clarity will emerge.

[Board_Drifter]

Um....different stories. Not necessarily different characters. Kingkiller feels like a prelude to something bigger, and if Kvothe survives Doors of Stone I think the safe bet is that his story will continue in the next trilogy.

Although it would be VERY interesting if he told Kvothe's story from someone else's POV.

Prelude or not, It's still Kvothe's story. I do agree that the first two books of the trilogy feel like a prelude to something much bigger yet I would personally like to see Rothfuss move away from Kvothe after "The Doors of Stone". A lot of fantasy writer's cop-out by re-hashing the same series over the corse of a career. Based on his interviews and the brief chat I had with him, I think Rothfuss is more diverse a writer then residing in his world for a mass amount of time. After the story catches up to the present, there will probably be a 50-70 page conclusion. "The Name of the Wind" took about that many pages before Kvothe starting telling his story. Also, I think Kvothe will die.

[Merihathor]

Prelude or not, It's still Kvothe's story. I do agree that the first two books of the trilogy feel like a prelude to something much bigger yet I would personally like to see Rothfuss move away from Kvothe after "The Doors of Stone". A lot of fantasy writer's cop-out by re-hashing the same series over the corse of a career. Based on his interviews and the brief chat I had with him, I think Rothfuss is more diverse a writer then residing in his world for a mass amount of time. After the story catches up to the present, there will probably be a 50-70 page conclusion. "The Name of the Wind" took about that many pages before Kvothe starting telling his story. Also, I think Kvothe will die.

I agree.

Also, he's said a number of times in various interviews that this trilogy is for Kvothe, but he will eventually come back to the world. Maybe he'll revisit some of the characters and maybe not. He's also said that he has an idea for an urban fairy tale, and a children's tale not for children, both in the wings currently.

[Board_Drifter]

I agree.

Also, he's said a number of times in various interviews that this trilogy is for Kvothe, but he will eventually come back to the world. Maybe he'll revisit some of the characters and maybe not. He's also said that he has an idea for an urban fairy tale, and a children's tale not for children, both in the wings currently.

Rothfuss has said that the urban fairy tale will be in a college setting.

The not for children children's book has been published. The Adventures of the Princess and Mr. Whiffle: The Thing Beneath the Bed, I found it to be a quick fun read. Rothfuss is working on a sequel.

http://www.amazon.com/Adventures-Princess-Mr-Whiffle-Beneath/dp/1596063130