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The Wise Man's Fear IV (SPOILERS)


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@Meriathor

If we assume on the fact that Scarpi=Aleph, then Scarpi would be really old. And I mean, really really really old! So how could he be still alive, unless we assume that Aleph is, if not godlike, then something more than a mere human...

On the business of Kvothe dying, I also think he will, but that's not the only issue I could see. There are 2 actually I find realistic:

1)Kvothe dies

2)Kote dies and Kvothe revives

I'd say the chances for the first one are 65% and for the second one are about 33%

I'm leaving 2% of chances for PR to come up with something else and make it credible. Any ideas?

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As to why I think Skarpi is Aleph:

NTW, hardcover, pages 189-192

"God have mercy on you," he [the Justice] said in a cold, trembling voice. Skarpi looked at the Justice mutely for a moment. Then he started to laugh. Great, booming, helpless laughter from the bottom of his soul...The storyteller's eyes rolled around to focus on the Justice. "Mercy on
my
soul." He gave a weak croak that might have been a chuckle on a better day. "You don't know how funny that sounds coming from you."

"..."I have
friends in the church
who can help me, but there's nothing you can do here. Go."

The mocking tone Skarpi has above towards the priests fits his name in that sense. Also, he is a storyteller, so fits his name in this manner as well. The fact that a beggar chose the name Sceop in Kvothe's story in WMF fits the form of a god or someone of power in mythology, and the fact that he offers a story to the Edema Ruh also fits his name. Stories are shaping, of sorts, and shaping is a stretch away from naming. In any case, I think they are all the same person.

So nice Merihathor!

I never thought of Scarpi = Aleph, but it brings a different meaning when Skarpi says "Tehlu always said-" and "Tehlu hates you more than the rest of the world does..."

It implies the church has moved away from its original Tehlu fae-catching MO.

This goes along with the false-start of Trapis' story, "Tehlu was unhappy...his church was corrupt. They stole form the poor and did not live by the laws he had given..."

The church seems to be, if not outwardly anti-arcanum, encouraging superstitions against magic users.

Ben's welcome in the first town "We're God-fearing people...we don't want any meddling with dark things better left alone. We don't want the trouble your kind can bring."

The Amyr/church split could have left the Amyr with the university and the church everywhere else.

Haliax is described as wearing "a deep cowl like some priest wear," and just before Skarpi 2 Kvothe mistakes a priest for Haliax, bringing back the memories of the night his parents were killed.

Maybe the church is supporting Haliax et al.

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@Meriathor

If we assume on the fact that Scarpi=Aleph, then Scarpi would be really old. And I mean, really really really old! So how could he be still alive, unless we assume that Aleph is, if not godlike, then something more than a mere human...

Yeah, he is, but I don't think he's human in the same sense that most everyone else in the books are. Other long-lived folks: all the Chandrian, any Amyr still around, and Felurian. Those are the only folks we've heard about or met, but perhaps others exist. We don't know exactly when the six followers of Lanre/Haliax became the Chandrian, but stories seem to indicate around the time of the Amyr and Angels emergence/creation. We also don't know if the six that we've met are the original six or if the previous members have died and been replaced. Given that we have not yet been told either way, we can probably assume for now that they are the original members--until told otherwise, of course. Regardless, we know Felurian to be very old as well, and she's not worshiped as a goddess.

I don't know if Aleph is a god or not. Some people might label someone with a certain level of power a god, and some wouldn't. For example, some people think that Jesus of Nazareth was God incarnate, others think he was a great teacher, while others think he was a prophet. Accordingly, opinions vary on Aleph's nature--some stories say he is God, some say a powerful namer, and if he is indeed Skarpi/Sceop, a rumormongerer and powerless beggar. These discrepancies exist because of the perspective of who first told a story about Aleph, who that storyteller was, where the story was told and, further, when the story was told. All of these shape perceptions and how the story is warped over time as it spreads.

Regardless, I will grant that he is something more than human, whether that means a very powerful and perhaps enlightened man, or a divinity. I don't have enough information on him to emphatically state that he is a god, but I can say that he is a powerful namer. We don't know how naming can change your nature (one aspect being longevity), but we know from Elodin and other namers that naming can change aspects if not the entire foundation. So, him being old doesn't bother me.

Sorry for the length.

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I have a mountain of a discourse about the Ademre and Lethani, but time is precious lately and I'm getting distracted by real-world research these days. So, I haven't forgotten, but wanted to at least acknowledge that I'm working on something that I can share for discussion and it will be forthcoming :-) So much fun to discuss ideas with all of you that I'm having a hard time focusing on my work these days!

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two quick points.

first merihathor interesting post. I don't. buy the Skarpi=Aleph theory but I found interesting nothing the less.

second read the scene with bast and the mercenaries, carefully guys "the far end was a glowing knot of coal".

Who do you think he might be? Just a storyteller or no one of much consequence?

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So why would Aleph take the name Sceop/Skarpi? I think this is a play on words, which is highly appropriate, given that he said to be one of the greatest namers (perhaps the primary one). A skald/scop in Nordic culture was a bard, and this is where the English language gets such words as "scoff" and "scald." Skarpi certainly scoffs/mocks the Tehlin priests in NTW (quotes below). Bards were not only historians and keepers of stories, but also creators of satire. In Celtic culture, the bard was a lower class of priest as well, with the highest level being the druid; I find the connection to trees here interesting. Regardless, see this article for more information on the bard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bard

The wise old man/beggar is a common theme in mythology, where a god or someone of power takes a lowly form in order to test the hearts of men. A classic example is Zeus and Odin.

As to why I think Skarpi is Aleph:

NTW, hardcover, pages 189-192

"God have mercy on you," he [the Justice] said in a cold, trembling voice. Skarpi looked at the Justice mutely for a moment. Then he started to laugh. Great, booming, helpless laughter from the bottom of his soul...The storyteller's eyes rolled around to focus on the Justice. "Mercy on
my
soul." He gave a weak croak that might have been a chuckle on a better day. "You don't know how funny that sounds coming from you."

"..."I have
friends in the church
who can help me, but there's nothing you can do here. Go."

The mocking tone Skarpi has above towards the priests fits his name in that sense. Also, he is a storyteller, so fits his name in this manner as well. The fact that a beggar chose the name Sceop in Kvothe's story in WMF fits the form of a god or someone of power in mythology, and the fact that he offers a story to the Edema Ruh also fits his name. Stories are shaping, of sorts, and shaping is a stretch away from naming. In any case, I think they are all the same person.

Great posts Merihathor. I simply love them.

A tiny little addition to the Aleph=Skarpi theory:

Why would Skarpi start such a roaring (almost Homeric) laughter?

If he is a divine person, a sort of god himself, then the justice's remark really would be a complete joke:

"God have mercy on you" (= God have mercy on 'god')!

It would explain Skarpi's remark: "You don't know how funny that sounds coming from you!"

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The Chaeth is amused at its own "wit" in the sentence "Stick by the Maer, and he will lead you to their (the Amyr's) door". This makes me think the answer is more than just that staying close to the Maer will give Kvothe the answer.

Maybe it is actually a reference to Bredon (who has a stick, and lives in the same place as the Maer). If he isn't Cinder, then maybe he is an Amyr - and his learning to dance and absences at the same time as Denna, are actually due to him tracking Cinder?

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Who do you think he might be? Just a storyteller or no one of much consequence?

I think he's a Namer or an Amyr or both. Skarpi looking at Kvothe like a book he could read in retrospect makes me think of Elodin looking at Kvothe before lighting Hemme's room on fire. From looking into Kvothe, Elodin was presumably able to get the "trumps" question (of course we know this is wrong and he's really Manet).

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(snip)

Now, why is Encanis not Haliax?

I can very much see why folks think this. I'm tempted to think this too, as the evidence is compelling. However, I think the fourth person that Tehlu strikes in Trapis' story, which releases a demon, is Iax or an Amyr. Why? The demon is cast into the outer darkness--bound beyond an edge if you will. Does this remind you of the one that is bound beyond the doors of stone? Further, the demon emerges from the fourth person Tehlu strikes. Fourth. Looking at the alchemical stages in metal, the fourth metal is copper. How many copper plates are on the door in the Archives? Four. Why four? Why copper? Because four is associated with copper, thus why it is the fourth person struck that reveals the demon. Copper seems to be difficult if not nearly impossible to name, which would prevent a namer from either calling this person back through the door, or the person themselves being able to use their inner power (as Lanre fell victim to) to come through on their own. So, I think that demon is Iax. Haliax/Lanre and Iax have similar imagery in this story because of how they used/gained their naming power.

(snip)

apologies for length, I wanted to respect the original post with a considered response

I wanted to address the assumptions particular to the story rather than the broader aclhemical imagery you bring to bear on the text. The timeline we're provided calls into question the way you've chosen to assign the characters. Since it may be just a matter of rethinking a point or to, or reassigning a corresponding image, I think this might be useful to you.

Iax is the most likely moon thief given the similarities between Hespe's story and Felurian's. If this is true, then it's unlikely he's the fourth individual (demon) struck down by Tehlu as his actions and imprisonment preceded Tehlu's empowerment. I'm not sure you're conflating Lanre(Haliax) and Iax, but it's not clear from the quoted paragraph. I take them to be separate given Iax's position as the catalyst for the Creation War and Lanre's role in it's conclusion. Finally, while we don't know for sure, the Cthaeh in the tree appears to be ancient both in terms of imagery and location via Bast's commentary. Because both Iax and Lanre spoke to it before taking their disasterous actions, I interpretted the story to say it had been confined and stationary for some time before the events of Trapis's story.

On a similar note, I wonder if aggressively assigning symbols to particular characters and then drawing characters from the rest of the story and calling them coequal - Skarpi/Aleph, Encanis/Cthaeh - is the only way to think about it. I was constantly reminded of "as above, so below," while reading the novels. However I was thinking more in terms of reverberation than equivalence. The clearest example would be the tragic relationship of Lanre and Lyra repeating through Jax and Ludis, Aethe and Rethe, Savien and Eloine, and finally Kvothe and Denna.

I see the similarities between the legendary figures and the primary characters (sa: earlier comments on Skarpi/Aleph or Dagon/Selitos), but I think it's possible to apply these similarities in multiple ways. A good example here is Auri, who shares descriptors with Ordal and an unclear interest in or hostory with the Amyr, but also calls to mind,
"Usnea lives in nothing but decay."
While the outer project of the magnum opus is physical transformation, it also refers to a spiritual purification. Seen through that lens an individual (and/or a story) can have a place in the epic narrative, expressing the same archetypal characteristics, without actually being the other character(s) in that narrative.

Kvothe's Scheherazade moment (telling the story of himself telling a story) at the foot of Stonebridge (Kindle loc 5896) contains a cautionary line:
"In real life old beggars are almost always old beggars."
The almost might be just the piece of evidence anyone needs to support coincidental identity. On the other hand it suggests that, like you say in a more recent post, stories depend on temporal and geographical distance from their intital conditions as well as the repeated reminders in text about the interplays between and commonalities between stories.
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apologies for length, I wanted to respect the original post with a considered response

I wanted to address the assumptions particular to the story rather than the broader aclhemical imagery you bring to bear on the text. The timeline we're provided calls into question the way you've chosen to assign the characters. Since it may be just a matter of rethinking a point or to, or reassigning a corresponding image, I think this might be useful to you.

Iax is the most likely moon thief given the similarities between Hespe's story and Felurian's. If this is true, then it's unlikely he's the fourth individual (demon) struck down by Tehlu as his actions and imprisonment preceded Tehlu's empowerment. I'm not sure you're conflating Lanre(Haliax) and Iax, but it's not clear from the quoted paragraph. I take them to be separate given Iax's position as the catalyst for the Creation War and Lanre's role in it's conclusion. Finally, while we don't know for sure, the Cthaeh in the tree appears to be ancient both in terms of imagery and location via Bast's commentary. Because both Iax and Lanre spoke to it before taking their disasterous actions, I interpretted the story to say it had been confined and stationary for some time before the events of Trapis's story.

On a similar note, I wonder if aggressively assigning symbols to particular characters and then drawing characters from the rest of the story and calling them coequal - Skarpi/Aleph, Encanis/Cthaeh - is the only way to think about it. I was constantly reminded of "as above, so below," while reading the novels. However I was thinking more in terms of reverberation than equivalence. The clearest example would be the tragic relationship of Lanre and Lyra repeating through Jax and Ludis, Aethe and Rethe, Savien and Eloine, and finally Kvothe and Denna.

I see the similarities between the legendary figures and the primary characters (sa: earlier comments on Skarpi/Aleph or Dagon/Selitos), but I think it's possible to apply these similarities in multiple ways. A good example here is Auri, who shares descriptors with Ordal and an unclear interest in or hostory with the Amyr, but also calls to mind,
"Usnea lives in nothing but decay."
While the outer project of the magnum opus is physical transformation, it also refers to a spiritual purification. Seen through that lens an individual (and/or a story) can have a place in the epic narrative, expressing the same archetypal characteristics, without actually being the other character(s) in that narrative.

Kvothe's Scheherazade moment (telling the story of himself telling a story) at the foot of Stonebridge (Kindle loc 5896) contains a cautionary line:
"In real life old beggars are almost always old beggars."
The almost might be just the piece of evidence anyone needs to support coincidental identity. On the other hand it suggests that, like you say in a more recent post, stories depend on temporal and geographical distance from their intital conditions as well as the repeated reminders in text about the interplays between and commonalities between stories.

Thanks much for sharing your thoughts :-)

To clarify: I don't think Iax and Lanre/Haliax are the same person. I did at one point, but came to the conclusion that they're separate at a later point.

I see what you're saying about some of the characters reflecting the transformation arcs of the archetypal characters, and I admire your viewpoint. I think in many cases that this is accurate, but I still hesitate to label Skarpi/Sceop as someone who is a reflection of the Aleph arc due to his verbal responses to the Tehlin justice. However, we don't have the full story yet, so I could simply be stuck in my thinking as far as this character is concerned. I appreciate your attempt at broadening the vista; I'll think on this and try to maintain objectivity.

I haven't had time to write this up, but I'll mention this briefly in order to spark more discussion--I noticed some parallels in the underlying themes to Zoroastrianism. I don't think he wrote specific characters as pure reflections of the figures and ideals within this religion, but I think he took some of the religion's characteristics and allowed these to color the story a bit, like a wash does for a painting...if you follow my analogy.
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I meant to add to the response above that perhaps Rothfuss only meant to add Odyssian (is that even a word?) imagery to Skarpi, to liken him in some way or another to Ulysses. Just a passing thought I had.

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I haven't had time to write this up, but I'll mention this briefly in order to spark more discussion--I noticed some parallels in the underlying themes to Zoroastrianism. I don't think he wrote specific characters as pure reflections of the figures and ideals within this religion, but I think he took some of the religion's characteristics and allowed these to color the story a bit, like a wash does for a painting...if you follow my analogy.

I had a similar thought, though I was thinking more Manichaeism. Perhaps I'm not familiar enough with both to account for the differences and similarities between the two. But the two initial worlds of the creation, the lack of omnipotence, the champions of light and dark, and the mortal world as the battleground between the two resonated for me.

In interviews, Rothfuss has expresed aversion to cliches; which informs the way I read the texts. In particular, he's not a fan of evil or villains whose motivation is destruction. It seems more likely that the greater pwers at large in The Kingkiller Chronicle act for both deeper and more personal goals. I wonder, as a few folks have already, if we'll get all the answers about the legendary figures, or if providing all that in this story limits further stories that can be told.

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Who do you think he might be? Just a storyteller or no one of much consequence?

my first comment was basically about knot magic. We were discussing it before your posts as to the potential relationship between knot magic and grammarie. the fact that Bast points with a glowing knot of coal is obviously very significant and strengthens the suggestion that there is a relationship between knot magic and grammarie. it's the first real clue I think that knots do have some or genuine magical property intrinsic to them.

ok, I know nothing about alchemy and I found your explanation of as above so below particularly insightful. Also Rotfhuss has a background in alchemy so clearly there is something alchemical going on in there. @Thistle having thought about it I don't think alchemy counts as one of the magic systems because it is supposed to be a science isn't it? certainly the in world explanation makes me think science not magic but no doubt the line dividing the two is probably very delicate if not non existent. still gut feeling is alchemy won't take centre stage in the novels as a discipline obviously as a motif/ underlying the novel is a whole different ball game.

ok the desire to turn Skarpi into Aleph is totally against my reading of the novels. He's a story teller who gets roughed up and nothing abouat him or Chronicler seems mystical, apart from his knowledge of Kvotjes name. Aleph is actually a figure removed from the world in presentation. the two incidental sights of him are the claim he named the world and his empowering tehlu.

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ok, I know nothing about alchemy and I found your explanation of as above so below particularly insightful. Also Rotfhuss has a background in alchemy so clearly there is something alchemical going on in there. @Thistle having thought about it I don't think alchemy counts as one of the magic systems because it is supposed to be a science isn't it? certainly the in world explanation makes me think science not magic but no doubt the line dividing the two is probably very delicate if not non existent. still gut feeling is alchemy won't take centre stage in the novels as a discipline obviously as a motif/ underlying the novel is a whole different ball game.

If alchemy is a 'science' then I think it's hard to say that sympathy is not a 'science.' Sympathy has rules with precise measurements and follows the law of the conservation of energy and diminishes with distance (or, and this is just a guess, the square of distance).

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my first comment was basically about knot magic. We were discussing it before your posts as to the potential relationship between knot magic and grammarie. the fact that Bast points with a glowing knot of coal is obviously very significant and strengthens the suggestion that there is a relationship between knot magic and grammarie. it's the first real clue I think that knots do have some or genuine magical property intrinsic to them.

That was a good catch. Thanks for pointing this out.

ok, I know nothing about alchemy and I found your explanation of as above so below particularly insightful. Also Rotfhuss has a background in alchemy so clearly there is something alchemical going on in there. @Thistle having thought about it I don't think alchemy counts as one of the magic systems because it is supposed to be a science isn't it? certainly the in world explanation makes me think science not magic but no doubt the line dividing the two is probably very delicate if not non existent. still gut feeling is alchemy won't take centre stage in the novels as a discipline obviously as a motif/ underlying the novel is a whole different ball game.

Well, alchemy could be a science, but that all depends on how you'd define science.

ok the desire to turn Skarpi into Aleph is totally against my reading of the novels. He's a story teller who gets roughed up and nothing abouat him or Chronicler seems mystical, apart from his knowledge of Kvotjes name. Aleph is actually a figure removed from the world in presentation. the yawl incidental sights of him are the claim he name the world and his empowering tehlu.

Yeah, I understand why you'd think that. All we know of Aleph right now is what we've been told in story form. So, you see Aleph in the light as he's presented in the stories, so when the possible real Aleph appears, it doesn't match the image created by the stories. Correct? Much like the reaction of the blacksmith's apprentice when Kvothe told him who he really was; he didn't match the apprentice's image of Kvothe, so he didn't believe it. Funny how insidious stories can be :-) Rothfuss does such a good job of showing this, I think. I'm not quite sure what to think myself, so it's nice to discuss ideas.

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my first comment was basically about knot magic. We were discussing it before your posts as to the potential relationship between knot magic and grammarie. the fact that Bast points with a glowing knot of coal is obviously very significant and strengthens the suggestion that there is a relationship between knot magic and grammarie. it's the first real clue I think that knots do have some or genuine magical property intrinsic to them.

So you convince me and then dissuade yourself? I took the time to look at instances of knot in WMF and saw that one as well. Most of them predictably have to do with Kvothe's guts, but the ones that don't tend toward proximity to Yll or Faen in the story. It still seems weird that grammarie would be explicitly related to knots and weaving, but I suppose that's the kind of thing we're looking for.

Yeah, I understand why you'd think that. All we know of Aleph right now is what we've been told in story form. So, you see Aleph in the light as he's presented in the stories, so when the possible real Aleph appears, it doesn't match the image created by the stories. Correct? Much like the reaction of the blacksmith's apprentice when Kvothe told him who he really was; he didn't match the apprentice's image of Kvothe, so he didn't believe it. Funny how insidious stories can be :-) Rothfuss does such a good job of showing this, I think. I'm not quite sure what to think myself, so it's nice to discuss ideas.

Given Sceop's role in Kvothe's story, the other significant character he could refer to is Illien. The Ruh purportedly learn many stories from him and he's aware of their ways.

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Way to go guys and gals. Now my brain feels mushy.

Digging and digging through the books, I can't seem to put my finger on exactly how the all these characters fit together. Don't get me wrong, I hear all the suggestions and theories from every one, but I'm left thinking that I only half see what is going on with the majority of the lesser-heard-from characters.

God knows if I catch myself trying to translate Yllish or Siaru one more time (while sitting in traffic, or eating breakfast) then maybe I should take the hint.

I guess my question is simple. Do you feel that you've gained something from all this theory-crafting? Or are we chasing our own tails, too impatient to wait for the last book to unlock the missing bits?

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Way to go guys and gals. Now my brain feels mushy.

Digging and digging through the books, I can't seem to put my finger on exactly how the all these characters fit together. Don't get me wrong, I hear all the suggestions and theories from every one, but I'm left thinking that I only half see what is going on with the majority of the lesser-heard-from characters.

God knows if I catch myself trying to translate Yllish or Siaru one more time (while sitting in traffic, or eating breakfast) then maybe I should take the hint.

I guess my question is simple. Do you feel that you've gained something from all this theory-crafting? Or are we chasing our own tails, too impatient to wait for the last book to unlock the missing bits?

Both though I still find many people on this board incredibly intelligent/insightful and I enjoy reading these threads.

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Well, gang, sorry it's been so long. I've been writing poetry all month - good in the long run, bad in the short. I'm @ page 8 so far...

...significant that one of the locks is copper.

My working assumption from the Elodin chapters in NOTW was that copper was somehow nameless or resistant to naming and shaping both. That would explain the following things.

The Four Plate door is protected from being Shaped from without or within. The copper somehow protects the stone from being named and broken.

Taborlin has a copper sword because it is protected from being shaped or named. There is also the other possibility that he had a copper sword because one of the Chandrian had some power over iron but I think this is a better explanation (Q: if copper cannot be shaped or named, how would you get it to hold an edge?)

Second relevant question: how would copper knives protect against the Fae? Iron clearly irritates Bast but he handles the copper lock freely enough. So what difference do copper knives make? Hmm..I don't have an answer for you there.

I am reasonably confident that copper is the metal which cannot be named. That is why Elodin's prison was made out of copper. No other metal was safe. And that should have something to do with the Four Plate Door- after all this was the university where the most powerful namers lived.

That's also why the Amyr carried copper shields . But clearly, copper is a very soft metal which makes it singularly inappropriate for a shield. So why a copper shield? Maybe there's a process for turning copper into an adamantine substance? That would explain the sword and the shield.

I think again of the ring without name. I know we've mentioned both Denna - the "nameless" one & Felurian, but now copper makes an interesting fit.

I had similar thoughts about copper, but how then is Elodin able to blow out the side of his room when the rocks are veined with copper? I would think such veins would be better at securing surrounding rock that the 4 plates on the aptly named door...

Maybe the copper from Elodin's room fails because it hasn't been through this shaping process, whereas the sword, shield and plates have...

Elodin's room didn't have copper at first, but the second one...

Whatever Elodin did to break down the wall oxidized the copper (since it turned into a green web).

Or it could have been oxidized before he knocked it down, I suppose.

I actually like this better than the natural explanation of it oxidizing over time. (1) because it's solid stone and it's hard to get air there (2) because Elodin's young, this wasn't forty years prior. Copper doesn't oxidized that fast, does it? Statue of Liberty?

That's what I thought. Would you normally make locks or barrel-bands with copper? Isn't it too soft?

I thought the barrel-bands were mentioned in context with the things that walk around inside people. Like with the Holly?

"Oh," Elodin said suddenly, laughing. "That was half-clever of them." He took two steps back from the

wall. "CYAERBASALIEN. "

Is it possible that Elodin here "speaks copper into oxidation"? That he speaks to the veins of copper running through the blocks of stone that made the wall, - that half-clever work as he calls it?

CY-AER-BASALIEN:

CY: from copper <cyprium < the Greek name for the copper island, Kypros (cyprus)

AER from Greek/Latin for air, wind ---

Sort of: let the CY-prium react with AER so that the stone

(BASAL- like foundation??) shall break?

Quarter-clever, very quarter-wit of me, I think though...

We could also have BAS - "low" ALIEN - "foreign"

or

BA could be conjunctive/pronominal suffix leading into SALIEN "the peice of a fortification jutting out at an angle" from Latin "salient"

So Copper with air in the bulwark or something like it.

I think you are trying to over-interpret this one. "Half-clever" simply means that they changed the wall so that it would not recognize the language that Elodin used to tell the stone to break. CYAERBASALIEN probably means "stone break" in the language it could now understand. And the copper probably oxidized on its own - no help needed.

I thought so, but then again the way he describes it makes it sounds like those metal webs they put inside shatter-resistant glass. If that's what they did - shatter-proof the wall - then the oxidizing makes sense.

whoops, that's embarassing. I meant to say since all civilised people agree there is no such thing as demons, it's not clear how amber would be of any use. I wasn't questioning the existence of amber. Your kindle citations are pretty much the same as mine on that point.

So I took it as read that on the left hand he wore rings that were about his position in the world. This fits a little uneasily with Elodin's quote that wearing rings on the left hand was something none of those studying naming were ready for yet, but beyond noticing the inconsistency between the rings Kvothe wearing on his left hand being about the mundane world of politics, and Elodin's suggestion that rings on the left symbolises something else, I'm not sure where to go with this (of course it's possible it was just a marriage gag by Elodin!).

We know that the wood and bone rings come from Meluan and Stapes respectively. Perhaps the iron is a sign that he is taken back into the good graces of Maer Alveron? It's hard to see another explanation for an iron ring on his left hand. We will definitely see Vint again, there are too many loose ends there.

Which leaves the amber ring with the supposed power to command demons, and the stone ring. Are rings of stone mentioned anywhere in the book? It's also strange if all these other rings are to do with politics then he should wear a ring with supernatural powers among them. But maybe he ran out of room on his other hand?

Yes, but Kvothe constantly compares both the Fae and the Chandrian to demons. It could be power over Faelings.

-- Lancelot

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