The Wise Man's Fear IV (SPOILERS)

[tze]

Haliax and Encanis share some unique descriptors; we shouldn't ignore that outright.

In Trapis's Tale, Encanis is the seventh initial refuser, isn't he? And the third is a demon? We don't have any reason not to consider the possibility that the Seven are Faen, partially or wholly.

The skin dancers are: shamble-men, draugar, the mercenary, and the skin stealers in Trapis's Tale.

Encanis is definitely separate from the 7 in Trapis's tale:

In the end, seven stayed on the other side of the line. Tehlu asked them three times if they would cross, and three times they refused. After the third asking Tehlu sprang across the line and he struck each of them a great blow, driving them to the ground. But not all were men. When Tehlu struck the fourth, there was the sound of quenching iron and the smell at burning leather. For the fourth man had not been a man at all, but a demon wearing a man's skin. When it was revealed, Tehlu grabbed the demon and broke it in his hands, cursing its name and sending it back to the outer darkness that is the home of its kind. The remaining three let themselves be struck down. None of them were demons, though demons fled the bodies of some who fell. After he was done, Tehlu did not speak to the six who did not cross, nor did he kneel to embrace them and ease their wounds.

The next day, Tehlu set off to finish what he had begun. He walked from town to town, offering each village he met the same choice he had given before. Always the results were the same, some crossed, some stayed, some were not men at all but demons, and those he destroyed.

But there was one demon who eluded Tehlu. Encanis, whose face was all in shadow. Encanis, whose voice was like a knife in the minds of men.

He strikes down three, who were not "demons," then sends the fourth, who is a "demon", into outer darkness. He then strikes down three more not-demons. Then he goes off and harasses more people/demons. Then he starts hunting Encanis, who is clearly separate from anyone mentioned beforehand.

The true story of the Chandrian is a giant puzzle---practically every story that Kvothe tells or hears has some element of their true story within it, but always mixed with half-truths and outright lies. It's entirely possible that Haliax was conflated with one of the Fae. Maybe some long-forgotten human witnessed a fight between Haliax and one of the Sithe, and centuries of retelling eventually resulted in the story of Tehlu and Encanis.

[Tyytan]

I've just finished WMF. Sorry to butt in, but my brother told me that apart from the Kingkiller Chronicle itself, there will be a separate trilogy dealing with Kvothe, Bast et al in the present. I couldn't see any mention of this during a very brief period of looking, so is this true?

I think it's just a rumour unfortunately - there's been a fair few people on the internet saying Rothfuss has denied this at signings. Which means either the last book is going to be very disappointing and have huge chunks missing, or it's going to be about 3000 pages long :-)

[thistlepong]

At the most recent signing, he guessed the length of DoS at 700-800 pages. One woman asked if he really thought he could wrap it all up in one book. With casual absolute confidence, he replied, "Yup."

He isn't forthcoming about further stories with the present cast because knowing who's left standing would be spoilerific.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

At the most recent signing, he guessed the length of DoS at 700-800 pages. One woman asked if he really thought he could wrap it all up in one book. With casual absolute confidence, he replied, "Yup."

He isn't forthcoming about further stories with the present cast because knowing who's left standing would be spoilerific.

Seriously. Kvothe is constantly described(in the present) as a man waiting to die. I really only see two possible endings to this story. Either he dies at the end of the third day, or something happens resulting in the 'death' of Kote and the rebirth of Kvothe.

PR has said, I believe, that he has more stories to tell in this setting, we just don't know if Kvothe will be the central character.

[Tears of Lys]

Seriously. Kvothe is constantly described(in the present) as a man waiting to die. I really only see two possible endings to this story. Either he dies at the end of the third day, or something happens resulting in the 'death' of Kote and the rebirth of Kvothe.

PR has said, I believe, that he has more stories to tell in this setting, we just don't know if Kvothe will be the central character.

I see no reason why Kvothe couldn't be the central character in any futher trilogies. He's got a lot of life left in him, IMO. He's a young man, not out of his 20s yet. The Kingkiller Chronicles could be just the beginning. Let's say this trilogy ends with bringing us up to present day. The Chandrian are still out there, Kvothe has exorcised all, or most, of the demons that have been plaguing him and which have resulted in the loss of his powers. He regains the tools and more to fight the Chandrian, which, face it, he didn't have a chance in hell of making a dent in one of them even at the height of his powers thus far. He needs to join up with Amyr. "Kingkiller" is why he's hiding right now, right? Clearing his name (or alternatively, political changes) could make the kingkilling moot.

Carrying on with Kvothe's story may open Rothfuss up to criticism from some quarters, but certainly not from me. :P I'm all for more Kvothe stories.

[11th Heaven]

I can't imagine that Patrick Rothfuss could wrap up the story of Kvothe's past amd the story in the present in another single book. At least not without it being ridiculously rushed/compressed. Perhaps he plans to just finish the story of Kvothe's past and leave the story on a melancholic note, with Kvothe depressed and the world being torn apart, scrael eating people etc. I hope not though - I'm a sucker for happy endings. I also really like the world and characters, and want to read lots more books with them in.

At least if he doesn't write any more books I won't have to try and deal with names like Cthaeh. How are you meant to pronounce that? (Only joking. It's probably the best series I've read since ASOIAF. I'd deal with more than a few difficult names in order to read more of it!)

[Spaceman Hobbes]

I see no reason why Kvothe couldn't be the central character in any futher trilogies. He's got a lot of life left in him, IMO. He's a young man, not out of his 20s yet. The Kingkiller Chronicles could be just the beginning. Let's say this trilogy ends with bringing us up to present day. The Chandrian are still out there, Kvothe has exorcised all, or most, of the demons that have been plaguing him and which have resulted in the loss of his powers. He regains the tools and more to fight the Chandrian, which, face it, he didn't have a chance in hell of making a dent in one of them even at the height of his powers thus far. He needs to join up with Amyr. "Kingkiller" is why he's hiding right now, right? Clearing his name (or alternatively, political changes) could make the kingkilling moot.

Carrying on with Kvothe's story may open Rothfuss up to criticism from some quarters, but certainly not from me. :P I'm all for more Kvothe stories.

I definitely want more Kvothe books, I just think outright saying, hey guys, I got a few more Kvothe trilogies coming gives away some things. The most likely ending to the book is what you described, but there are other possibilities as well.

[Tyytan]

Only problem is if he ends it on one giant cliffhanger at the present day, we'd have to wait ages until everything gets resolved. It's bad enough waiting 3 or 4 years for each book at the moment, waiting for a whole new series would be unbearable. I'd prefer it if he'd wrap it up in one giant book, or immediately starting on a second trilogy.

[Gaston de Foix]

Encanis is definitely separate from the 7 in Trapis's tale:

He strikes down three, who were not "demons," then sends the fourth, who is a "demon", into outer darkness. He then strikes down three more not-demons. Then he goes off and harasses more people/demons. Then he starts hunting Encanis, who is clearly separate from anyone mentioned beforehand.

The true story of the Chandrian is a giant puzzle---practically every story that Kvothe tells or hears has some element of their true story within it, but always mixed with half-truths and outright lies. It's entirely possible that Haliax was conflated with one of the Fae. Maybe some long-forgotten human witnessed a fight between Haliax and one of the Sithe, and centuries of retelling eventually resulted in the story of Tehlu and Encanis.

I like your analysis Tze and I actually agree with it more than the other proposition. But since you are taking a side, I'll take the other.

The story if you read it closely ends up with six you refused to cross the line and Encanis. The equivalent would be the other Chandrian and Haliax. We know very little about the relationship between Haliax and the other Chandrian, Skarpi's story is completely silent on the matter, but from their interaction it seems that the other Chandrian are bound to Haliax's purpose in some manner and this grants him control and authority over them.

[Gaston de Foix]

I can't imagine that Patrick Rothfuss could wrap up the story of Kvothe's past amd the story in the present in another single book. At least not without it being ridiculously rushed/compressed. Perhaps he plans to just finish the story of Kvothe's past and leave the story on a melancholic note, with Kvothe depressed and the world being torn apart, scrael eating people etc. I hope not though - I'm a sucker for happy endings. I also really like the world and characters, and want to read lots more books with them in.

At least if he doesn't write any more books I won't have to try and deal with names like Cthaeh. How are you meant to pronounce that? (Only joking. It's probably the best series I've read since ASOIAF. I'd deal with more than a few difficult names in order to read more of it!)

All the signs are that he knows exactly where he is going with the story. The last book will end, in my opinion, with either the first quiet steps of resurrection or with exactly the sort of foreclosure of Kvothe's story that has been so heavily foreshadowed. But if you look at the pace of the frame story, actually it's very dramatically in contrast with the pace of the narrative. It would strike a false note for Book 3 to have Denna burst through the front door, tearily confess her mistake to Kvothe and be joined with a rousing chorus of Sim, Fela, Manet and Master Kilvin.

I have to admit given the length of Book 2 I am surprised at his claim that Doors of Stone will be 600-800 pages. That implies a resolution to so many threads, although I have to continually remind myself that this is the story of a man's life and not the story of the entire four corners.

[Sylvester]

I have to admit given the length of Book 2 I am surprised at his claim that Doors of Stone will be 600-800 pages. That implies a resolution to so many threads, although I have to continually remind myself that this is the story of a man's life and not the story of the entire four corners.

I think you made a point there: in my opinion, at the end of book 3, there will still be many questions unaswered, perhaps even about some key points like the Chandrian. That's why I believe that there will be another trilogy, but probably not with Kvothe anymore.

I find it pretty clear that Kvothe will die, and here's why: You'd notice that all Chronicler's and Bast's attempts to sort of "help" Kvothe fail (except perhaps the one where Kvothe laughs after Chronicler is afraid of Bast), as though it was impossible to help him. And isn't that one of the key characteristics of a tragedy? In fact, Kvothe himself implies that fact several times "We know what kind of story this is. This is no comedy", and I think that that's the main role of the Chtaeh, to say:"this story has a bad ending" and to sort of justify it. That's also why I think we won't hear from the Chtaeh in the third book by the way.

So basically, Kvothe will most certainly die in the third book, and I guess the next trilogy, if there is one, will probably star Chronicler and Bast (and Manet, of course).

[Who's on Third]

My theory on how the books end: with a reading of those few pages which are crumpled on Kvothe's desk. I think there is not much left for PR to cover in terms of the back story, it will be a few Names (he's already set the framework with Elodin - and how many times can PR make the learning of a new name exciting?!), the great betrayal, which is probably connected to the destruction of whomever he kills in Imre, and the start of the current war, which could be as simple as "I opened the doors of stone. " then we are left with Kvothe's attempt at personal redemption in the present day, which he has already begun (attempting to open the chest, one perfect step), which I suspect he will succeed in though not to the extent we hope (i.e. Destruction of the Chandrian). We don't even know if the seven are truly evil - we assume it from the stories and the fact they killed K's troup. (we are given plenty of evidence of their evilness, but we still don't know heir purpose.)

I think PR can do it in one book, and given his track record, do it well.

[Slick Mongoose]

My theory on how the books end: with a reading of those few pages which are crumpled on Kvothe's desk.

That would be interesting, particularly if they're contradictory.

[thistlepong]

I like your analysis Tze and I actually agree with it more than the other proposition. But since you are taking a side, I'll take the other.

The story if you read it closely ends up with six you refused to cross the line and Encanis. The equivalent would be the other Chandrian and Haliax. We know very little about the relationship between Haliax and the other Chandrian, Skarpi's story is completely silent on the matter, but from their interaction it seems that the other Chandrian are bound to Haliax's purpose in some manner and this grants him control and authority over them.

Thanks, Tze, for the clarification. Grin, Skarpi at least implies Lanre/Haliax leads those who burned the other six cities when he adds "all those who follow you" to the curse. The stories are remarkably consistent regarding one city that escaped destruction. In Shehyn's story, there are eight folks and one ultimately doesn't destroy a city. So the stories may line up more solidly than it seems at first. Haliax's authority at present is clearly reinforced by his skill with names.

Who's on Third, who do you think will read the pages? They have been carefully name checked in both books. But who remains to read them?

The more I think about it, Kvothe's laying a trap in the frame story (or trying to, for the folks who think he's doomed.) I think the story he's telling is tragic, but that doesn't guarantee the frame is. He may die, but it may end up having some meaning - Menda and Lanre both die in their stories defeating an enemy.

Tangent warning... Threads ago, someone brought up Denna's white teeth and the heavy description of sweet eaters. I'm starting to wonder if the repeated images - white teeth, red lips, iron, fire - might be incredibly significant.

[Who's on Third]

Who's on Third, who do you think will read the pages? They have been carefully name checked in both books. But who remains to read them?

The more I think about it, Kvothe's laying a trap in the frame story (or trying to, for the folks who think he's doomed.) I think the story he's telling is tragic, but that doesn't guarantee the frame is. He may die, but it may end up having some meaning - Menda and Lanre both die in their stories defeating an enemy.

I think it will be Chronicler who reads the pages, and I don't know if they will be consistent with the story as we've been told and as he has written. PR always says the first words of his story were "I am Kvothe." Is this how those pages will start?

I was also wondering if anything will come of Kvothe's time in Tarbean, the rivalries he developed there (will we see Pike again?), and the interaction with Gerreck as Encanis. I think there may be something symbolic in that meeting, with Encanis holding out the silver talent, I just haven't the slightest what it could be. We can assume we will see Skarpi in the next book - Kvothe seems to have more familiarity with him than a tavern meeting would support. Also, it strikes me that Skarpi is akin to the Cteah (sp?) in that if he can see a "story" developing, his words can be like an "arrow shot into the future". The meeting with Skarpi is what saved Kvothe from doom in Tarbean.

[Tyytan]

^ All good points, but who is Gerreck? I don't recall that name.

Anyone think we'll see Abenthy again by the way? Seems like the sort've 'mentor' archetype who might burst in and rouse Kvothe back to what he used to be.

Also, I was rereading the beginning of NOTW later, and it's interesting to note Kote's power isn't completely gone - or at least it wasn't on the first day. When Chronicler begins to talk about 'a woman' (Denna), it reads

"Kote stood with his back to the room, a stillness in his body and a terrible silence clenched between his teeth. His right hand, tangled in a clean white cloth, made a slow fist.

Eight inches away a bottle shattered. The smell of strawberries filled the air alongside the sound of splintering glass. A small noise inside so great a stillness, but it was enough. Enough to break the silence into small, sharp slivers. Chronicler felt himself go cold as he suddenly realized what a dangerous game he was playing. So this is the difference between telling a story and being in one, he thought numbly, the fear."

It seems likely Denna has something to do with his reawakening, if it ever occurs, if even the memory of her caused him to somehow smash a bottle.

[Who's on Third]

On the numbers:

I've been nagged by the interplay between 7 and 8 in the books. Perhaps it's nothing, but here it is:

NoTW:

-In Tapis' story, there are 7 who refuse to cross the line, plus Encanis.

-Tapis' story: 7 days for Tehlu's chase, catches Encanis on the eighth day.

-Tapis' story: Encanis destroyed six cities, (maybe seven, if Tapis miscounted by failing to count the first of the destroyed cities) saved the seventh city (but maybe eighth if Tapis failed to count the first city)

-In Skarpi's story there are 7 cities, plus Myr Tyraniel.

-Skarpi, when talking to Erlus, says "It's not as if I expect you to bound off looking for Haliax and the Seven yourself."

-In Skarpi's story, Selitos says "Can I confound the plots of Lanre and his Chandrian"

WMF:

-Sheyhen: "In the empire there were seven cities and one city."

-Sheyhen: "The enemy was not of the Lethani. He poisoned seven others against the empire." Enemy + seven = 8

8 things are required to get into the Lackless door, the items that are counted then "that which comes with sleeping".

Don't know if this means anything, but many times I tried to add things up to seven, I came up with eight...

[Who's on Third]

^ All good points, but who is Gerreck? I don't recall that name.

The person who plays Encanis in Tarbean and saves Kvothe from freezing. His female companion calls him "Gerrick"

[Spaceman Hobbes]

I think there might be something to the Larne + 7 chandrian. Weren't there eight figures on the golden bowl in NOTW?

[Tyytan]

My theory on how the books end: with a reading of those few pages which are crumpled on Kvothe's desk. I think there is not much left for PR to cover in terms of the back story, it will be a few Names (he's already set the framework with Elodin - and how many times can PR make the learning of a new name exciting?!), the great betrayal, which is probably connected to the destruction of whomever he kills in Imre, and the start of the current war, which could be as simple as "I opened the doors of stone. " then we are left with Kvothe's attempt at personal redemption in the present day, which he has already begun (attempting to open the chest, one perfect step), which I suspect he will succeed in though not to the extent we hope (i.e. Destruction of the Chandrian). We don't even know if the seven are truly evil - we assume it from the stories and the fact they killed K's troup. (we are given plenty of evidence of their evilness, but we still don't know heir purpose.)

I think PR can do it in one book, and given his track record, do it well.

Just to double check, we're assuming those papers are the memoir he started to write, right?

Edit:

The person who plays Encanis in Tarbean and saves Kvothe from freezing. His female companion calls him "Gerrick"

Ahh of course, thanks.