96 replies to this topic

[lynxx]

I hope we can get a few phrases in the old Valyrian speech.  We have the famous two that Arya encounters, but I suspect that we have heard others without realizing it.  Valyrian roots are probably embedded all throughout Westeros, but we don't realize it.

[ingsve]

lynxx, on 18 April 2011 - 12:07 PM, said:

I hope we can get a few phrases in the old Valyrian speech.  We have the famous two that Arya encounters, but I suspect that we have heard others without realizing it.  Valyrian roots are probably embedded all throughout Westeros, but we don't realize it.

Who knows if they'll do anything like a created language for Valyrian but I would say that there is at least a chance it might happen. David Peterson who created Dothraki was also credited in the first episode with creating the languages Skroth and Ashai'i. Skroth is apparently the "language" of the White Walkers.

In the dothraki wiki we have a page with all the references to other languages in the books: http://wiki.dothraki...Other_languages
For High Valyrian most of the references are names which can give a sense of what sounds are part of the language. There are also the well known phrases of course like valar morghulis, valar doheris and dracarys.

[jellydonut]

To me, since they went to the trouble of creating Dothraki for the first season, they're gonna need the various Valyrian variations for the Braavos and Slaver's Bay storylines.

It's either that or have everyone in Braavos and the Slaver's Bay cities speak the common tongue with a Syrio accent. They already discounted that path for the Dothraki, surely they can't call it 'good enough' for the later seasons either?

[ingsve]

jellydonut, on 23 May 2011 - 02:30 AM, said:

To me, since they went to the trouble of creating Dothraki for the first season, they're gonna need the various Valyrian variations for the Braavos and Slaver's Bay storylines.

It's either that or have everyone in Braavos and the Slaver's Bay cities speak the common tongue with a Syrio accent. They already discounted that path for the Dothraki, surely they can't call it 'good enough' for the later seasons either?

Possibly. I think it might come down to how happy they are with their choice to create the Dothraki language.

One thing that might speak in favor of a Valyrian language though is that they also had David Peterson create seeds for two other languages, Skroth (the language of the white walkers) and Ashaii.

[jellydonut]

I asked David Peterson himself, and while he hasn't yet heard anything about whether there will be Valyrian language(s) in the show, he's aware of the roles of High Valyrian and Braavosi in the series and would be up for the job if HBO comes asking.

He also suggested making our wish for the languages clear to HBO via Twitter and Facebook. I've made two tweets earlier at the @GameOfThrones account, both complaining about their raffles and store only being available in the US, UK and Ireland, so I don't think I'm the right messenger.

Edited by jellydonut, 26 May 2011 - 09:28 AM.

[ingsve]

I think the main problem with Valyrian is that I don't really see a reason for them to have it in the series. With Dothraki it is a way to establish the foreigness of the situation that Daenerys is thrown into. With Valyrian it would just serve as a replacement for english since it's a language that Daenerys has grown up learning. You would basically have to have everyone speaking valyrian in every single scene in Essos in season 2 for it to remain consistent since everyone she meets speaks valyrian of some dialect or another so there would be no place where they would realistically be speaking the common tongue.

[The Sand Snake]

As weird as a post as this is, I really would like to learn Valyrian.  I wish the people who make the languages would make the whollllle language and then put it in a dictionary.  I vote we all learn it and then have conversations in it, and make everyone else around us nervous.  It'd be great

[jellydonut]

ingsve, on 26 May 2011 - 11:46 AM, said:

I think the main problem with Valyrian is that I don't really see a reason for them to have it in the series. With Dothraki it is a way to establish the foreigness of the situation that Daenerys is thrown into. With Valyrian it would just serve as a replacement for english since it's a language that Daenerys has grown up learning. You would basically have to have everyone speaking valyrian in every single scene in Essos in season 2 for it to remain consistent since everyone she meets speaks valyrian of some dialect or another so there would be no place where they would realistically be speaking the common tongue.

I see the Valyrian languages becoming more important later on, as

Spoiler

Sam and Arya, especially Arya, arrive in Braavos. Arya learning the language is an important part of her life there.

But I suppose for consistency they would have to speak it in Slaver's Bay as well. Maybe it's too much, I don't know.

[Mother of Dragons]

jellydonut, on 30 May 2011 - 10:46 AM, said:

I see the Valyrian languages becoming more important later on, as

Spoiler

Sam and Arya, especially Arya, arrive in Braavos. Arya learning the language is an important part of her life there.

But I suppose for consistency they would have to speak it in Slaver's Bay as well. Maybe it's too much, I don't know.

The impression I got about the High Valyrian language was that it was akin to Latin- a dead language, but learned universally for communication, contracts, negotiation,etc.  Especially since in Europe, only the upper eschelon of society learned the language unless you happened to be educated in a monastery.  For the most part, Latin was taught to nobles, and I got the feeling Valyrian was similar in Westeros.

  This is all my personal speculation, of course, but it seemed to me that with all the different cultures & colloquialisms in the East, Valyrian seems to be the common tongue for that continent.  I'm guessing its bc of the proximity to where Valyria was, the language probably dominated before the Doom. The Valyrians also impressed upon me to be real bad-asses, kind of like the Romans.

I always imagine when reading tidbits about Westerosi history that the language referred to in the book as "the common tongue" is a dialect derived from the Andals (who I imagine to be like the old Germanic tribes).

I remember thinking it strange Arya didn't know Valyrian, but we also know she wasn't interested in her studies- for example, she had problems remembering sigils of the lesser houses when looking for her father's bannermen.

I'll be disappointed if High Valyrian isn't spoken at some point during the series, it seemed like an important part of the asoiaf culture...especially if ice crunching noises were dignified as being 'Skorf' or whatever it was they called the language of the Others.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Quote

I think the main problem with Valyrian is that I don't really see a reason for them to have it in the series. With Dothraki it is a way to establish the foreigness of the situation that Daenerys is thrown into. With Valyrian it would just serve as a replacement for english since it's a language that Daenerys has grown up learning.

I don't agree - I think it's important that Valyrian be spoken in at least some of Dany's scenes.  

For example,

Spoiler

in the negotiations for the Unsullied, Daenerys pretends that she does not understand Valyrian and speaks with the slave merchant in the Common Tongue...  while the merchant and his slave chatter away about really inappropriate and telling stuff in Valyrian.  It's a pretty funny scene in a lot of ways because of that, and it's a good way to show Dany being cunning (though as she acknowledges it was Jorah's idea, she just acts it out perfectly).

To be honest, I wouldn't mind if they just decide to literally have Valyrian = Latin.  But I bet they will do another Conlang that sounds "Latin-ish" - I don't see why not?

[ingsve]

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 14 July 2011 - 05:24 PM, said:

I don't agree - I think it's important that Valyrian be spoken in at least some of Dany's scenes.  

For example,

Spoiler

in the negotiations for the Unsullied, Daenerys pretends that she does not understand Valyrian and speaks with the slave merchant in the Common Tongue...  while the merchant and his slave chatter away about really inappropriate and telling stuff in Valyrian.  It's a pretty funny scene in a lot of ways because of that, and it's a good way to show Dany being cunning (though as she acknowledges it was Jorah's idea, she just acts it out perfectly).

To be honest, I wouldn't mind if they just decide to literally have Valyrian = Latin.  But I bet they will do another Conlang that sounds "Latin-ish" - I don't see why not?

Well, it would be a lot of trouble having them speak Valyrian all season long just to have one scene as a payoff for it later on. Don't get me wrong, I too would very much like them to create a Valyrian conlang but I also see reasons for why they would avoid it.

I doubt that they would simply use Latin. There are tons of words in both Valyrian and the other languages that are derived from High Valyrian that would need to get work into a language to have it authentic. David Peterson who created Dothraki has said that he already has an idea for what he would do with parts of the grammar if was asked to create it. Right now he is very tightlipped and can't talk about anything that goes beyond season 1 so currently we have no clue if they are planning anything or not.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

ingsve, on 15 July 2011 - 10:36 PM, said:

Well, it would be a lot of trouble having them speak Valyrian all season long just to have one scene as a payoff for it later on. Don't get me wrong, I too would very much like them to create a Valyrian conlang but I also see reasons for why they would avoid it.

I don't think they'll have to speak Valyrian all season long.  They can use the Common Tongue in Qarth, and Valyrian in Astapor for the two scenes there.  Then go back to Common after that.  They don't have to keep the rules for who speaks what exactly the same as in the book, just use it when it's needed.

[Maginor]

Don't they speak Ghiscari in slavers bay?

[boojam]

lynxx, on 18 April 2011 - 12:07 PM, said:

I hope we can get a few phrases in the old Valyrian speech.  We have the famous two that Arya encounters, but I suspect that we have heard others without realizing it.  Valyrian roots are probably embedded all throughout Westeros, but we don't realize it.

I was wondering, the show created a language for season one, I thought the use of it was cool.

I would love to see High Valyrian being created, was there such a thing a 'low Valyrian'?
Was there such a thing as 'court Valyrian'.
One might suspect Dany could speak all forms of Valyrian, being that she was Valyrian.

[boojam]

ingsve, on 26 May 2011 - 11:46 AM, said:

I think the main problem with Valyrian is that I don't really see a reason for them to have it in the series. With Dothraki it is a way to establish the foreigness of the situation that Daenerys is thrown into. With Valyrian it would just serve as a replacement for english since it's a language that Daenerys has grown up learning. You would basically have to have everyone speaking valyrian in every single scene in Essos in season 2 for it to remain consistent since everyone she meets speaks valyrian of some dialect or another so there would be no place where they would realistically be speaking the common tongue.

Maybe I got this wrong, but I thought 'the common tongue' maybe have been derived from Valyrian?, but was not Valyrian, one 'hears' in the show and on the page 'the common tongue' as English.
Adding Valyrian for emphasis , as it is done with Dothraki, would be a nice touch.

[ingsve]

boojam, on 15 August 2011 - 09:16 PM, said:

Maybe I got this wrong, but I thought 'the common tongue' maybe have been derived from Valyrian?, but was not Valyrian, one 'hears' in the show and on the page 'the common tongue' as English.
Adding Valyrian for emphasis , as it is done with Dothraki, would be a nice touch.

The common tongue is a mix the languages of the Andals and the Rhoynar which I believe are different languages than Valyrian and they came to Westeros several thousand years ago. High Valyrian is what they spoke in old Valyria before the Doom. Low Valyrian is the version of the language that is spoken in the Free Cities. These can he seen as different dialects of High Valyrian that have over time become more and more different from each other and from High Valyrian.

[boojam]

ingsve, on 15 August 2011 - 10:14 PM, said:

The common tongue is a mix the languages of the Andals and the Rhoynar which I believe are different languages than Valyrian and they came to Westeros several thousand years ago.

How do we know that?

Anyway, I think it would be clever if there were some poems and songs in High Valyrian... I know George is not Tolkein... but with some help........

[ingsve]

boojam, on 20 August 2011 - 04:36 PM, said:

How do we know that?

Anyway, I think it would be clever if there were some poems and songs in High Valyrian... I know George is not Tolkein... but with some help........

What we know is that the common tongue was brought to westeros by the andals and the rhoynar, that's in the books somewhere I think. We don't know that the original language of the andals and rhoynar was different than valyrian per se but it's an educated guess based on what we do know. High Valyrian was the language of old Valyria and we know that the free cities where originally outposts or colonies of valyria and that the valyrian language spoken there was a bastardized version of High Valyrian. Now, that distinction wouldn't make that much sense if the whole continent spoke Valyrian so it stands to reason that Valyrian was spoken in Valyria and that the other people in Essos had their own languages. We know that this is true of some of the other people like the Lhazareen, Dothraki, Qartheen and Asshai'i that have their own languages so it's not unlikely this was also the case with the Andals and the Rhoynar.

[KSC]

During George's screening of episode 8 yesterday, he commented on High Valyrian. He mentioned that a student writing a dissertation on the subject had emailed him asking if he could have a complete alphabet, pronunciation key, and any other notes George may have on the subject. George's reply was, "Sorry, I don't have anything like that. High Valyrian contains seven words, and when I need an eighth, I'll make it up." He also mentioned Tolkien's Elvish afterward.

Thought you'd be interested.

[ingsve]

KSC, on 21 August 2011 - 05:40 PM, said:

During George's screening of episode 8 yesterday, he commented on High Valyrian. He mentioned that a student writing a dissertation on the subject had emailed him asking if he could have a complete alphabet, pronunciation key, and any other notes George may have on the subject. George's reply was, "Sorry, I don't have anything like that. High Valyrian contains seven words, and when I need an eighth, I'll make it up." He also mentioned Tolkien's Elvish afterward.

Thought you'd be interested.

There are names and placenames that are of obvious High Valyrian origin as well but ya until someone gets the order to create the language there won't be any more help than what is in the books.