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The Fight at the Tower of Joy


Corvinus85

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For a long time now I had in my head how that pivotal scene which we only know from Ned's dream, actually played out. And I'm talking only about the fight, nothing else, so if you wish to comment here don't turn this in another R+L=J.

Basically, how do you imagine the way that fight played out?

As a remembrance here is a list of the two sides:

Ned Stark

Howland Reed

Theo Wull

Ethan Glover

Martyn Cassel

Lord Dustin

Ser Mark Ryswell

Ser Arthur Dayne

Ser Gerold Hightower

Ser Oswell Whent

Here is how it has been playing in my head:

- All the combatants advance on foot, weapons drawn.

- Ned and 2 others go against Dayne, while the other two Kingsguard each face against 2 opponents

The rest happens roughly at the same time:

- Dayne quickly kills one of Ned's companions, leaving only Ned and another

- Ser Oswell Went goes down under the blows of his two opponents, but he manages to inflict mortal wounds on both

- The White Bull kills one, but Howland Reed kills him while distracted

(I imagine Reed fighting with a frog spear and a net, just like his daughter)

- Just as Reed gave Ser Gerold the killing blow, Dayne kills another of Ned's companions leaving only the Lord of Winterfell himself; Ice against Dawn

- Ned can barely hold his own, and after a few quick exchanges he finds himself on his back, with the Sword of the Morning looming over him ready to finish him off

- But then, quick as lightning, Howland Reed is there jabbing Dayne with his spear; this distracts Dayne who turns to strike down Reed

- Reed deftly dodges the blow and throws his net on the knight; Dayne stumbles and loses his balance

- Without hesitation, Ned gets up and with all his strength drives Ice through Ser Arthur Dayne's chest

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Here’s my version of the ending:

Arthur and Ned duke it out, mano a mano. Ned is pressed hard. He’s an average swordsman duelling with the best knight in the realm.

But suddenly Ser Arthur slows down. He barely manages to parry Ned’s competent but basic thrust. And no counterstrike. Instead, Arthur takes a clumsy step backwards, lifts his shield arm for balance. Ned, though winded, is still quick enough to stab at the exposed area in Arthur’s left chest. Arthur dies. Ned pulls out his sword, still unable to understand that he just defeated the Sword of the Morning. Only then does he hear the moans of Howland Reed, 10 lengths away. The warg is barely conscious, bathed in sweat, bleeding from his eyes.

Then Ned understands. Howland warged into Ser Arthur, unbalancing the noble warrior just enough to give Ned the advantage he needed. Ned won this fight in the least honourable way possible.

--

This is based on: (1) Howland Reed is not a fighter. He’s the greatest crannogman sorcerer of this generation and has spent many years on the Isle of Faces levelling up. Think lvl 70 animist. (2) Howland is a warg. His two children (none of which are wargs) sure know a lot about warging. (3) Wargs can slip into other people and puppeteer them. We see that Bran can do it, without instruction, to Hodor. Hodor is a lackwit, and Arthur isn’t. But Howland needs not full control, he just needs to slow Arthur down. I claim that a superwarg can do that. (4) It solves the mystery of why we haven’t seen Howland. Uniquely among Ned’s bannermen, he didn’t appear. That’s because he was mentally damaged, similar to what happened to the eagle-warging wildling in Jon’s chapters.

I also like that this would be another example of honour gone sour. Ned earned a lot of respect for defeating the Sword of the Morning in single combat. Only he knows that he basically cheated. (Though not by his own volition.) Howland, of course, did the right thing, jeopardizing his friend’s honour in order to save Lyanna.

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Do we know if Ned used Ice in the battle? I was sort of under the impression Ice was more ceramonial and was a little too big to be practical in a fight.

I had the same impression too. Not that it is too big to be practical, just not really Ned's

. Randyll Tarly and some ironborn use greatswords, after all.
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Here’s my version of the ending:

Arthur and Ned duke it out, mano a mano. Ned is pressed hard. He’s an average swordsman duelling with the best knight in the realm.

But suddenly Ser Arthur slows down. He barely manages to parry Ned’s competent but basic thrust. And no counterstrike. Instead, Arthur takes a clumsy step backwards, lifts his shield arm for balance. Ned, though winded, is still quick enough to stab at the exposed area in Arthur’s left chest. Arthur dies. Ned pulls out his sword, still unable to understand that he just defeated the Sword of the Morning. Only then does he hear the moans of Howland Reed, 10 lengths away. The warg is barely conscious, bathed in sweat, bleeding from his eyes.

Then Ned understands. Howland warged into Ser Arthur, unbalancing the noble warrior just enough to give Ned the advantage he needed. Ned won this fight in the least honourable way possible.

--

This is based on: (1) Howland Reed is not a fighter. He’s the greatest crannogman sorcerer of this generation and has spent many years on the Isle of Faces levelling up. Think lvl 70 animist. (2) Howland is a warg. His two children (none of which are wargs) sure know a lot about warging. (3) Wargs can slip into other people and puppeteer them. We see that Bran can do it, without instruction, to Hodor. Hodor is a lackwit, and Arthur isn’t. But Howland needs not full control, he just needs to slow Arthur down. I claim that a superwarg can do that. (4) It solves the mystery of why we haven’t seen Howland. Uniquely among Ned’s bannermen, he didn’t appear. That’s because he was mentally damaged, similar to what happened to the eagle-warging wildling in Jon’s chapters.

I also like that this would be another example of honour gone sour. Ned earned a lot of respect for defeating the Sword of the Morning in single combat. Only he knows that he basically cheated. (Though not by his own volition.) Howland, of course, did the right thing, jeopardizing his friend’s honour in order to save Lyanna.

I do buy parts of your superwarg theory. I have hunch though that rather than mental disability, Howland Reed ended up disabled, maybe losing an arm or leg. maybe Howland Reed just took a blow meant for Eddard.

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I like that theory. Not convinced but it was a fun read and wouldn't dissapoint me if true.

I’m not sure which part you’re sceptical about: the fight with Ser Arthur is obviously complete speculation, there’s no reason to be convinced by that.

But Howland is very good, assuming that he is the little Crannogman in Meera’s story. We’re told that he “learned all the magics of my people,” that he “knew the magics of the crannogs […] but he wanted more”, the he “decided he would leave the crannogs and visit the Isle of Faces. […] It was the green men he meant to find,” and that “All that winter the crannogman stayed on the isle, but when the spring broke he heard the wide world calling and knew the time had come to leave.” This is the long winter before the Year of the False Spring. So he spent many years with the green men.

GRRM does not express himself in role-playing game terms, but this is as clear as it gets. Howland maxed out in the crannogs, and then spent years with the most magical beings in Westeros. He’s seen spell lists no other human has seen for generations.

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Well the superwarg theory was fun to read, but I don't buy it. Especially your first point about Howland Reed not being a fighter, because from Meera and Jojen we learn that Meera inherited their father's fighting skills.

Anyone else have a different idea on how that fight went down?

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Do we know for a fact that Ice was in Ned's possession? At that time the Lord of Winterfell carried it and I really could not see the Mad King giving it to him after killing Brandon and their father so unless they left Ice in Winterfell how would Ned have it?

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Especially your first point about Howland Reed not being a fighter, because from Meera and Jojen we learn that Meera inherited their father's fighting skills.

This would be the person who is bullied by three 15-year olds at Harrenhal, right?

[...] when he was set upon by three squires. They were none older than fifteen, yet even so they were bigger than him, all three. [...] They snatched away his spear and knocked him to the ground, cursing him for a frogeater. [...] They shoved him down every time he tried to rise, and kicked him when he curled up on the ground. [...] The crannogman was bruised and bloodied [...].

He is then rescued by a 13-year old girl (if I have my timeline right) with a tourney sword.

I don’t think Howland is any more a fighter than Meera is, perhaps less so. Here’s how she describes him:

“He was small like all crannogmen, but brave and smart and strong as well. He grew up hunting and fishing and climbing trees, and learned all the magics of my people.”

I’m confident that he (or was) is very handy with the net and “three-pronged spear”, and can use his “leathern shield” and “shirt sewn with bronze scales”. He’s a hunter, like all crannogmen. But I don’t think anybody stands a chance against a real warrior in GRRM’s world (nor our own) armed like that; certainly not of crannogmen build. We also know he doesn’t sit a horse very well. I have difficulties viewing Howland (or Meera, for that matter) as a “fighter” in anything but the broadest terms. They are hunters. They are quite useless in a normal fight.

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Here’s my version of the ending:

Arthur and Ned duke it out, mano a mano. Ned is pressed hard. He’s an average swordsman duelling with the best knight in the realm.

But suddenly Ser Arthur slows down. He barely manages to parry Ned’s competent but basic thrust. And no counterstrike. Instead, Arthur takes a clumsy step backwards, lifts his shield arm for balance. Ned, though winded, is still quick enough to stab at the exposed area in Arthur’s left chest. Arthur dies. Ned pulls out his sword, still unable to understand that he just defeated the Sword of the Morning. Only then does he hear the moans of Howland Reed, 10 lengths away. The warg is barely conscious, bathed in sweat, bleeding from his eyes.

Then Ned understands. Howland warged into Ser Arthur, unbalancing the noble warrior just enough to give Ned the advantage he needed. Ned won this fight in the least honourable way possible.

--

This is based on: (1) Howland Reed is not a fighter. He’s the greatest crannogman sorcerer of this generation and has spent many years on the Isle of Faces levelling up. Think lvl 70 animist. (2) Howland is a warg. His two children (none of which are wargs) sure know a lot about warging. (3) Wargs can slip into other people and puppeteer them. We see that Bran can do it, without instruction, to Hodor. Hodor is a lackwit, and Arthur isn’t. But Howland needs not full control, he just needs to slow Arthur down. I claim that a superwarg can do that. (4) It solves the mystery of why we haven’t seen Howland. Uniquely among Ned’s bannermen, he didn’t appear. That’s because he was mentally damaged, similar to what happened to the eagle-warging wildling in Jon’s chapters.

I also like that this would be another example of honour gone sour. Ned earned a lot of respect for defeating the Sword of the Morning in single combat. Only he knows that he basically cheated. (Though not by his own volition.) Howland, of course, did the right thing, jeopardizing his friend’s honour in order to save Lyanna.

I know I'll get corrected if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that there is a difference between a warg and a skinchanger. A warg can slip into dogs and wolves and a skinchanger has no such limitations. under that definition of warg and taking into account that Howland Reed has been described as a warg and NOT a skinchanger this theory doesn't seem very likely.

Not to mention that this is not an honorable fight by any means and I see Howland reed and Ned Stark as nothing if not honorable.

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This would be the person who is bullied by three 15-year olds at Harrenhal, right?

And the man who just spent the entire war fighting by Ned's side. Just because he wasn't a good fighter when he was younger and inexperienced doesn't mean he can't get better.

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Not to mention that this is not an honorable fight by any means and I see Howland reed and Ned Stark as nothing if not honorable.

1. That’s argument cuts both ways. I like it because it is a dint in Eddard’s honour. See “the man who shot…” above. It’s Lyanna’s life or Eddard’s honour. Which would you choose in Howie’s shoes? The fact that there is a conflict speaks for my scenario, not against it.

2. We know nothing about Howland other than that he lets 13-year old girls duke out his confrontations for him. And doesn’t show up when his lord calls his bannermen. And fights with a net. No indication whatsoever of honourable behaviour. There is only the reader’s coalitional bias.

3. In my scenario, Ned wasn’t asked. I’m sure he’d have refused the help, had Howland made the mistake of asking him.

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Happy Ent, I like your theory, but I would quibble a little bit with it. I don't think that resistance to warging is so much a matter of intelligence as it is of will. Theon Greyjoy wouldn't last five seconds against a talented warg, while somebody like Daenerys Targaryen would be much more of a challenge.

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Happy Ent, I like your theory, but I would quibble a little bit with it. I don't think that resistance to warging is so much a matter of intelligence as it is of will. Theon Greyjoy wouldn't last five seconds against a talented warg, while somebody like Daenerys Targaryen would be much more of a challenge.

I completely agree. Another aspect is bonding. Hodor has been carrying Bran around for a while now. He’s attuned to Bran’s wishes.But Bran can completely control Hodor, without any training or much intent.

Even a superwarg like Varamyr Sixskins can’t just puppeteer the Mance’s enemies.

But all I need from Howland is that he can make Arthur fumble a parry, miss a step, or something like that. Possibly at the very extreme’s of Howland’s concentration and will power, and only with years of green man training. I think that sounds fairly plausible. He’s be crazy to not use it in this situation.

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But all I need from Howland is that he can make Arthur fumble a parry, miss a step, or something like that. Possibly at the very extreme’s of Howland’s concentration and will power, and only with years of green man training. I think that sounds fairly plausible. He’s be crazy to not use it in this situation.

HE, I agree with your theory. Whatever Howland did I'm inclined to believe it wasn't really martial, so to speak. I think he distracted Dayne in some way and that was what allowed Ned to prevail. Now, this distraction could have been something rather simple like tripping or throwing something, etc. but I like to think it was something to do with magic/warging. I'm a bit confused on the timing of Howland's time at the Isle of Faces, though. Would he have already had all that Green Man training prior to the rebellion and fight at the ToJ?

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If Reed did warg into Dayne just before he died, would he have long-term mental ramifications, like a disorder or something? I like the theory, which would explain Howland sending his kids to Winterfell instead of going himself, if he was in a (sorta)vegetative state afterwards.

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