135 replies to this topic

[The_Halfhand]

Overall, I thought episode 2 was much better than the first one.  But still, some changes really had me scratching my head.

1.  "It should have been you."

Again, a great line that really nails the relationship between two characters, completely disregarded for no good reason.

2.  Tyrion waking up in the kennel

Would have liked to have seen him in the library so the whole "Why do you read so much" line had more merrit.  But this change wasn't that bad overall.

3.  Queen Cercei going to see Bran

This was an odd scene to me.  Yes, it fleshes out Cercei's character a bit, but the notion that she ever would allow herself to birth a child of Robert's is a complete left turn from the character as she's written in the books.  In the books, she was so full of hate for Robert she aborted the only child he ever impregnated her with.  An odd decision, though I see why they did it.

4.  Lack of Direwolves, in particular Ghost.

Seriously, Ghost is kinda important, and yet he's nowhere to be seen.  You didn't even see him TRAVELLING with Jon.  Is he just gonna magically show up soon?  And no sight of Grey Wind or Shaggydog, or the fact Bran hasn't named Summer yet.  Sigh.

5.  "She didn't hurt you... much."

Again, a great line left out for no real reason.  When Arya says that to Joffrey after Nymeria attacks him, it was such a great moment in the books.  It would have been great here, and yet... nada.  Double sigh.

6.  No Barriston The Bold or Renly

Guess they're saving them for later, but it would have been nice to introduce them along with Illyn Payne.  His introduction seemed rather odd, and the Hound didn't come off near as menacing to Sansa as he should have.

7.  No dreams.

I guess they're leaving the dreams out ofthe show.  Would have been nice to see Dany's dream and Bran's.

8.  Jon and Tyrion's scene

Again, close but no cigar.  The writers seem dead set on not letting Jon and Tyrion have the great relationship they have in the books.  The whole "Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it" was SO IMPORTANT because it made Jon truely trust Tyrion, and tought him a valuable lesson.  But alas, instead we get extra dialogue about the Kingslayer.  That, plus no Ghost and no introduction to Yoren, who does play an important roll later.

Overall, I thought the scenes with Danny were handled well, and the episode as a whole moved better than the pilot.  The whole Catelyn investigation into the tower where Bran fell was a little odd, but I can see it was necesasary.  Would have liked to have heard more explanation about the conspiracty to kill Bran like they had in the books, but it's not a big deal, they got across what they needed to.

Hopefully they stick closer to the books as the series goes on.

[Spoony]

yeah, I think the dialogue changes were completely unnecessary.

Not sure where ghost was. But it felt like a continuity error.

[The Iceman of the North]

Ghost did show up in the first scene after leaving Winterfell, but his no-show at that scene did stand out.

[aryastark]

The thing i missed the most is Ghost, its like he doent even exist :s and Greywind too, makes me sad second thing I missed was Renly making fun of Joff, guess we wont see him before Kings landing then. Everything else seems fine to me.

[Jojen's Ghost]

You nailed it.  Those were my top issues with this episode as well.  I understand that changes need to be made for the necessity of moving from book to film format, but in many cases the changes outlined in the original post were character-defining moments.

[Balefont]

I see you, Jojen.  

Been a long time.

[Dark Knight]

The_Halfhand, on 25 April 2011 - 01:12 AM, said:

1.  "It should have been you."

Again, a great line that really nails the relationship between two characters, completely disregarded for no good reason.

5.  "She didn't hurt you... much."

Again, a great line left out for no real reason.  When Arya says that to Joffrey after Nymeria attacks him, it was such a great moment in the books.  It would have been great here, and yet... nada.  Double sigh.

Those are the 2 main things that bothered me in their absence in the 2nd episode. I was shocked not to hear the "it should have been you" from Catelyn. Sure, we get some idea of the enmity between her and Jon, but that line just tells the entire story, I don't understand how could they leave it out. And what did Ned do in the room in that scene??
And the 2nd one...It strikes me kind of odd that they did have Jeoffry say "I won't hurt you...much" but didn't have Arya say the counter...took all the punch out of it....

Other noticeable things that were left out are the close relationship between Arya and Jon - the completing each other's sentences and the messing Arya's hear, but I get why they left it out as it's even not that meaningful in the books.

Another line that I wish they would have left in the show is Cersei telling Robert "The man I wed would have put a pelt on my bed before sundown" or something like that, as it sheds a bit of light on the relationship between Cersei and Robert.

I didn't mind the "left ins" though, they were quite nice and most of them necessary for things that can be expressed in books(thoughts) and not on the screen.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

The_Halfhand, on 25 April 2011 - 01:12 AM, said:

or the fact Bran hasn't named Summer yet.  Sigh.

Bran doesn't name Summer until after he wakes up, so this is consistent with the book.

[NW Deserter]

Quote

Other noticeable things that were left out are the close relationship between Arya and Jon - the completing each other's sentences and the messing Arya's hear, but I get why they left it out as it's even not that meaningful in the books

Really? I think they got their relationship fairly well-established with the goodbye scene. Much of that was from the book, too.

Regarding the direwolves: honestly, the biggest thing I'm missing is Grey Wind. We see some shots of Ghost as Jon is traveling north, but Ghost doesn't really do anything yet and is off hunting most of the time. Summer, Lady, and Nymeria all feature prominently, as they should, and we don't even see Rickon at all so it's understandable that we don't see Shaggydog either.

But I feel like Grey Wind needs to be with Robb a lot more. Hopefully they'll fix this as Robb comes into his own and start leading armies, that's what makes his legend grow is Grey Wind stalking beside him and tearing up men and horses.

[GileanTheGrey]

Ser Helman Tallhart, on 25 April 2011 - 08:19 AM, said:

Bran doesn't name Summer until after he wakes up, so this is consistent with the book.

Yeah, this part keeps bugging me in the back of my head and I have to argue with myself each time to remind myself that Summer shouldn't have his name until next week. However, it would have been nice to have names for Grey Wind and Ghost. For that matter, have we seen Grey Wind once since the scene where the wolves were discovered? I realize they had some issues with training the dogs, but simply having him heel Robb in a scene would have been nice. And of course, many people have already mentioned the fact that we're going to have to start up a chapter of "Ghost Hunters: Westeros" to find more than a glimpse of Jon's wolf so far.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

NW Deserter, on 25 April 2011 - 08:26 AM, said:

But I feel like Grey Wind needs to be with Robb a lot more. Hopefully they'll fix this as Robb comes into his own and start leading armies, that's what makes his legend grow is Grey Wind stalking beside him and tearing up men and horses.

As I recall, Grey Wind really makes his first impact on the reader when Tyrion meets with Robb during his return trip through Winterfell.  Hopefully he'll do the same onscreen.

GileanTheGrey, on 25 April 2011 - 08:33 AM, said:

However, it would have been nice to have names for Grey Wind and Ghost. For that matter, have we seen Grey Wind once since the scene where the wolves were discovered? I realize they had some issues with training the dogs, but simply having him heel Robb in a scene would have been nice.

Yeah, they've dropped the ball a bit in that regard.  Some very brief shots with Jon/Robb interacting with their wolves and calling them by name would have easily solved that shortcoming.

Quote

And of course, many people have already mentioned the fact that we're going to have to start up a chapter of "Ghost Hunters: Westeros" to find more than a glimpse of Jon's wolf so far.

Edited by Ser Helman Tallhart, 25 April 2011 - 08:36 AM.

[ingsve]

The_Halfhand, on 25 April 2011 - 01:12 AM, said:

That, plus no Ghost and no introduction to Yoren, who does play an important roll later.

Did Yoren really appear that early in the books? I thought you met him later. At any rate we know that he's in episode 4 at least so I don't think it's a problem.

Edited by ingsve, 25 April 2011 - 09:29 AM.

[Solmyr]

The episode was great up until the point when Bran opened his eyes without dreaming the dream. This is one of my favourite scenes of the entire series and they simply left it out. It's not like it's hard to shoot or it would be inconsistent with the TV series. And it would've made a great cliffhanger ending between ep2 and ep3, on top of Bran's waking.

And Ned killed Lady with a dagger ... seriously, wtf?!

Edited by Solmyr, 25 April 2011 - 09:30 AM.

[Memory Lane]

I can understand some of the changes. The dreams are rather difficult to show, since Martin has written them chock-full of symbolic imagery (although Bran's dream is pretty awesome, with the Three-Eyed Crow's "Now you see why you must live. Because Winter is coming", and "Bran saw into the heart of winter and was afraid"). I also wonder if they're worried about bringing on the magic too strong in the early episodes.

I think Cersei's comments helped to keep people off-balance regarding her, so that she can't just be pigeonholed into "mustache-twirling evil" category. If we find out later that she killed the child in question . . . it will make her seem even more unpleasant.

I agree that the Jon-Tyrion scene was a little off. Jon needed to be more emotional - Tyrion's quips actually got under his skin. I suppose we'll get Jon's period of disillusionment at the Wall next episode instead.

[Lazarus]

Guys, I have to tell you, I'm having serious doubts about this entire production...  The actors seem to be doing their best with what they have to work with, and God knows they have the best possible story to tell, but where the hell is the Direction?

The dialogues sound like the Director is teling them to read their lines, and then he films it and says, "Ok, we got that one, let's move to the next scene"...  The whole series of scenes where Jon is leaving for the Wall should have been filled with emotion - Jon saying goodby to a comotose Bran - I believe there were tears involved in the book...  Jon saying goodby to his beloved little sister, Arya...  Jon saying goodby to the one person who is truely his contemporary brother, Rob, the one he grew up with...  All the conversations were flat and emotionless, like watching a high school play...  

The scene where the assassin comes in the room and finds Catelyn there...  Lines recited like they were just going over them in a dress rehersal...  "Your not supposed to be here..." FLAT!  The best actor in the whole scene was the dog... The actor could have been a janitor they pulled onto the set just to fill in for the moment...  

The scene with Catelyn informing her trusted few of her suspicions and her intent to go to King's landing - Everyone standing around trying to look intense and dramatic, and the lines were just rushed and flat...  

Also, the way they are presenting Cat and her attitude toward Ned is all wrong...  She blames him for leaving for Kings Landing - In the book she was the one who told Ned he could not refuse the king...  That it would be political suicide...  I do understand that some changes must be made when working within the constraints of such a project, but these people are making major changes to the characters and their motivations...  I am not pleased...

I am beginning to believe that they are rushing the entire story to get it to fit into neat 30 minute packages...  Its like they are telling the viewers, "Ok let's move along - We have a lot of material to cover..."

My wife actually suggested this morning that we UNsubscribe to HBO and skip the rest of the series - She was that disappointed with it last night...  And I am having trouble finding a reasonable arguement against her suggestion...

Edited by Lazarus, 25 April 2011 - 09:57 AM.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Solmyr, on 25 April 2011 - 09:29 AM, said:

And Ned killed Lady with a dagger ... seriously, wtf?!

I liked that change because the lead-up of petting and comforting the wolf made the euthanizing much more personal.  This wasn't some scofflaw he was beheading out of duty, it was a direwolf (an innocent one at that), the sigil of his house and his daughter's pet, that he was compelled to take mercy on rather than hand her over to a "butcher."

As for the efficacy of a dagger vs. a greatsword - a dagger can end life just as quickly and mercifully if properly placed and wielded.  Ned no doubt has plenty of hunting experience so I'm sure at some point he'd have put an elk, boar or some other beast out of its misery in a similar fashion.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Lazarus, on 25 April 2011 - 09:55 AM, said:

Guys, I have to tell you, I'm having serious doubts about this entire production...  The actors seem to be doing their best with what they have to work with, and God knows they have the best possible story to tell, but where the hell is the Direction?

The dialogues sound like the Director is teling them to read their lines, and then he films it and says, "Ok, we got that one, let's move to the next scene"...  The whole series of scenes where Jon is leaving for the Wall should have been filled with emotion - Jon saying goodby to a comotose Bran - I believe there were tears involved in the book...  Jon saying goodby to his beloved little sister, Arya...  Jon saying goodby to the one person who is truely his contemporary brother, Rob, the one he grew up with...  All the conversations were flat and emotionless, like watching a high school play...  

The scene where the assassin comes in the room and finds Catelyn there...  Lines recited like they were just going over them in a dress rehersal...  "Your not supposed to be here..." FLAT!  The best actor in the whole scene was the dog... The actor could have been a janitor they pulled onto the set just to fill in for the moment...  

The scene with Catelyn informing her trusted few of her suspicions and her intent to go to King's landing - Everyone standing around trying to look intense and dramatic, and the lines were just rushed and flat...  

Also, the way they are presenting Cat and her attitude toward Ned is all wrong...  She blames him for leaving for Kings Landing - In the book she was the one who told Ned he could not refuse the king...  That it would be political suicide...  I do understand that some changes must be made when working within the constraints of such a project, but these people are making major changes to the characters and their motivations...  I am not pleased...

I am beginning to believe that they are rushing the entire story to get it to fit into neat 30 minute packages...  Its like they are telling the viewers, "Ok let's move along - We have a lot of material to cover..."

My wife actually suggested this morning that we UNsubscribe to HBO and skip the rest of the series - She was that disappointed with it last night...  And I am having trouble finding a reasonable arguement against her suggestion...

I hate to dismiss your opinions completely out of hand as you're certainly entitled to them, but I don't know what show you've been watching.  By television standards (and even by HBO standards, which are considerably higher than network TV), the acting has been stellar through the first two episodes.  And not just in terms of line delivery - facial expressions and other non-verbal cues have been immensely effective as well.  As for last night's episode, there was more genuine emotion conveyed during an hour of television than I've seen in ages (at least since the last season of Breaking Bad ended).  

To be sure, there are some things to criticize, but the acting in general simply isn't one of them, IMHO.  I actually agree with you somewhat about the pacing and direction, although I'm not sure this could have been avoided given the time constraints involved.  If that's your main beef, the director of the first two episodes (Tim Van Patten) didn't direct any others during the season - so at least give it one more try next week before you give up.

Edited by Ser Helman Tallhart, 25 April 2011 - 10:14 AM.

[Snow White]

Solmyr, on 25 April 2011 - 09:29 AM, said:

The episode was great up until the point when Bran opened his eyes without dreaming the dream. This is one of my favourite scenes of the entire series and they simply left it out. It's not like it's hard to shoot or it would be inconsistent with the TV series. And it would've made a great cliffhanger ending between ep2 and ep3, on top of Bran's waking.

Well, they may show it in flashback but honestly I'd be fine if they merely had him recount it. It'd be really easy for that to end up cheesy.

Quote

And Ned killed Lady with a dagger ... seriously, wtf?!

That surprised me, but it makes more sense as Tallhart pointed out. Plus, it is consistent with the 'giving the mercy' stuff later on.

[reiver]

Ser Helman Tallhart, on 25 April 2011 - 09:58 AM, said:

I liked that change because the lead-up of petting and comforting the wolf made the euthanizing much more personal.  This wasn't some scofflaw he was beheading out of duty, it was a direwolf (an innocent one at that), the sigil of his house and his daughter's pet, that he was compelled to take mercy on rather than hand her over to a "butcher."

Using Ice made it more formal and gave the direwolf a human level of respect. Ice is more than just a headsman's axe it's a sacred symbol of House Stark and of the North.

Visually i can see that it filmed better with the dagger and i suppose that it's hard to convey, without lengthy dialogue, what doing it with ice means.

[Kaitscralt]

Lazarus, on 25 April 2011 - 09:55 AM, said:

Guys, I have to tell you, I'm having serious doubts about this entire production...  The actors seem to be doing their best with what they have to work with, and God knows they have the best possible story to tell, but where the hell is the Direction?'

and so on

I read your post a couple of times and I have to respectfully disagree. The acting seems pretty top notch so far, with Catelyn as a possible weak link depending on who you ask. It seems that whatever GRRM told these people, and what they read in the parts of the books they read, have really made an impression on their dialogue and I see a lot of subtlety and nuances that seem to be there in different ways, both to help non-readers and as Easter eggs for the book fans.