The_Halfhand, on 25 April 2011 - 12:09 PM, said:
In the book, when Jon is saying goodbye to Bran, GRRM writes it in such a way where it seems like Catelyn actually is touched by Jon's farewell, so when she calls out his name before he leaves, you feel like there will be some type of redemption there. But instead, the line is so shocking, because it shows how much of a "stoneheart" Catelyn really is, and this goes towards her turning into such an evil creature later after she's killed. I actually think that line was very important.
We disagree on the importance of that then. I didn't think she was warming up to Jon in the book, but that's a side note.
The_Halfhand, on 25 April 2011 - 12:09 PM, said:
She wasn't lying though. Why would she lie about having a dark haired child? I think this was added to set up the "kings sons" mystery more than anything. Cercei might be a cold, conniving woman, but remember in the books she didn't want Jamie to kill Bran, and she wasn't the one who killed Jon Arryn. She does have a few scruples, though they seem to go away as she grasps for more power.
Until I see something that makes it clearly deviate from the book, I will take it as that she was lying, something that's certainly within her character. We'll see as the show goes on. She lost a child but she didn't want to have it.
She didn't want Jaime to kill Bran but she did want Bran to die when the deed was already done, which she also clearly confesses to her brothers. Killing someone and wishing someone already subjected to attempted murder to die are not the same things.
The_Halfhand, on 25 April 2011 - 12:09 PM, said:
You misread my post. I know he doesn't name his wolf until after he wakes up. But there's been NOTHING about him being unable to name his direwolf so far. A simple line from Rob saying something like "And Bran was never able to think of a name for his wolf" would have sufficed. It was important that everyone had named their wolves but Bran, and why the eventual choice of the name Summer was so important as well. But here, they just gloss over it. They didn't even talk about how the wolves would wail constantly since Bran fell, and how hearing them seemed to give him strength. Just a few lines of dialogue in the show could convey this, but for some reason the producers don't feel the need to layer in these important bits, which they could easily do.
Yes, I see how you meant it now but we have vastly different opinions on what's important then. Bran not naming his wolf for a while is not important in my view, it's not even important that the direwolf is named Summer. Things that are important are that Bran likes to climb and gets thrown out a window, that Tyrion is a dwarf etc. Bran naming Summer is a small detail that doesn't affect the plot at all and there are lots of other similar details that have been left out, and some have been put in. They have to choose. Note that I'm talking about 'important' in a general sense as what details are important to us personally differ and are not something that's relevant to how they make the show.
And the wolves were howling and they don't really need to talk about what we already hear. Again it's not important to the plot exactly why so they don't have to to point that out for the new viewers. This is a clear case of where the book can be used as a companion to the series, i.e. where you get more understanding of details by having read it.
The_Halfhand, on 25 April 2011 - 12:09 PM, said:
Um, I've seen plenty. In the two scenes they've shared, major bits of dialogue have been left out. I know that the producers gave Tyrion a lot of Donnel Noye's lines at the Wall, but the bit where Tyrion tells Jon about the "hard truths" plays into why he helps Samwell out later on. I guess they could re-arrange the dialogue to have that come later, but it was conspicuous in its absense. You really see Jon and Tyrion's friendship grow in the book, culminating in that final chance meeting on the top of the wall. So far, I don't see the connection being that strong. Jon seems far too sullen.
Major bits of dialog has been left out everywhere so that's hardly a surprise. And Tyrion having Donal Noye's lines plays on the education part in a similar manner. And we disagree about their friendship. We get to see what they are thinking about in the book and none of them thinks about the other after they've parted. Hardly a sign of a great friendship.
The_Halfhand, on 25 April 2011 - 12:09 PM, said:
These are my favorite books of all time. Long have I imagined what they would be like if they became a movie or TV show. And some of the best moments - little lines of dialgue, and small details - are being left out and I just don't understand why. They can word-for-word have Tyrion recite what he wants for breakfast in the book, but when it comes to major scenes they gotta change stuff? It just makes no sense to me. Maybe if I could hear the producer's views on this stuff, it might make a difference. I'm still watching the show and enjoying it, but these small changes really take me out of the "viewer" mindset and make me instantly critical. The whole time with Arya and Joffrey, I was waiting for her to say "She didn't hurt you... much," I was on the edge of my seat, yelling "Say it! SAY IT!" and then she just sullenly looks at Joff and tosses the sword in the river. It was such a let down, especially since it was one simple line of dialogue that could have easily been added.
I'm not criticizing you about it, just saying that I think your expectations are a bit too high to be able to fully enjoy it for what it is as friendly advice. These are my favorite books as well and I'm watching this with fairly good knowledge of how adaptations are made, and how they usually turn out. That makes it so I'm rather pleasantly surprised at every detail that's left in, rather than annoyed at everything I like in the book that's left out. Pretty much every fantasy series before this has been far worse than this so I don't think what we've gotten was even realistic to expect. So if I've heard "She didn't hurt you... much" I'd have thought "cool, they got that in" (even though I don't think that particular line is one of Martin's better) rather than be annoyed when it wasn't left in.
What's important in an adaptation is keeping true to the spirit, not making things play out exactly like the original. I want an artistic adaptation that becomes it's own entity when I watch this. If I want to make sure I get to hear my favorite lines from the book I'll read that again.
The_Halfhand, on 25 April 2011 - 12:09 PM, said:
However, I did like all the Danny scenes this episode. It was essentially 1 Danny chapter spread out over the course of the show, and that pacing seemed good since we got all the information we needed, and the final lovemaking scene between Danny and Drago hit all the right notes for their relationship. Makes me think that if the producers had a little more time, they could really be nailing the tone and intent of the books, but they seem rushed to fit so much story into 10 hours.
Yes, that's exactly the issue. They have to pick and choose by so many things that are in the book, together with making their own thing. At times things are explained in dialog in the book where you can just suffice with the fact that in the show you actually have visuals that speak for you. 10 hours is a short amount of time to tell what's on 700 pages of a pretty intricate story. This far they are doing clearly better than I thought they would.
From what we've heard the pace is the highest in the first two episodes (at least out of the first six) so hopefully things will get even better.
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