40 replies to this topic

[Loras]

Let me start off by saying this: I am not a Dany hater, nor am I particularly a Dany lover.

After episode 2, 'The Kingsroad', Dany has completed her first mini arc of the season.  She has progressed from being horrified and terrified by Drogo and his kalasar, to taking initiative and a more active role in how her experience with them shall progress.  I have the added benefit of watching the series with my partner who has not read the books, so part of this post will be his input.

It must be said that so far I have been very impressed with Emilia Clarke in her portrayal of Dany.  Particularly in the first episode she seemed to capture the timid little girl who has been somewhat bullied and molested by her brother and sold out to a "savage" horselord.  The second episode shows us two very different sides of Dany; a sulky teenager who wants something else to eat but horse and a sultry Khaleesi with an aim to 'please' the husband that she is so terrified of.  Independently I like all of these images of Dany, but in the context of the Tv series they don't make sense...

Unless we are expected to believe that looking at her dragon eggs while Drogo has his way with her gives her the inner strength to take control of the situation.  As readers of the books, gifted with an insightful monologue into how Dany is feeling and what she is thinking, we know that this is her motive.  But for those who haven't, the evolution of the character seems a little stilted and unlike the character we see in the first episode.  At this point, we don't know that the Targaryen's have any sort of affinity with dragons - despite Viserys' jarring quip of 'you don't want to wake the dragon' from the first episode and Dany getting inner strength from the over exploited dragon eggs.  We are even led to believe that Dany the Targaryen, who knows all about waking the dragon does not know that dragons are extinct?

My partner turned to me at one point and said, "that girl is obsessed with those bloody eggs, I get it already" swiftly followed by, "let's do a drinking game - every time those eggs appear on screen let's do a shot!"

Isn't the point of Chekhov's gun that we know they are there, but they don't come into play until later?  If they are forced on me much more I'm going to start hoping that D&D make a departure from the books and let Viserys kill Dany by hitting her on the head with one!

That's a departure from my original point, but I think it's important none the less.  Anyway, so Dany decides to take control over her sex life with a man that she sees as a dangerous savage.  Doreah adds at the end of the scene where she is teaching Dany the Lyseni version of the Kama Sutraby saying "if he wanted the Dothraki way, he wouldn't have married her".  While Doreah did not understand the real reason for the marriage, certainly gold from Illyrio, this line was presented in a way that made it seem like Dany was chosen by Drogo - rather than the fact that he would have married whoever had the largest dowry!  

My biggest gripe about the way that the show has present Dany so far is that we seem to have lost a transitional step.  While we are meant to believe that she has evolved throughout this second episode it remains implausible to methat she would have developed any autonomy as Khaleesi.  Surely she would be more terrified of Drogo than she was on her wedding night?

I don't think it is a surprise that the rest of the Dothraki were presented in a more sympathetic light in this episode, note the children laughing and playing.

I wonder how you all feel about the evolution of Dany in these first two episodes? Is it for you, as it is for me, the weakest link of an otherwise stellar opening?  I'd love to read your comments.

[CryFenril]

I agree that the dragon-Targaryan link has so far been weakly described at best, though I am assuming that this will be rectified down the road. Even having Illyrio mention that the secret toasts are follwed by "dragon banners" would have helped. But I don't think that's the big problem here for me.

For me, Dany is doing everything right, as much as can be expected with the time constraints. My problem lies with the half-finished look and feel of the entire Eastern arc of the story, particularly the halfhearted portrayal of the Dothraki as a people.

Plus, we have seen Drogo several times, but the only word he has been given to speak that we could understand is still "no". We hear translated Dothraki first from Dany. Odd.

[NW Deserter]

I always thought that Dany's arc was the weakest of all of them throughout the first three books, so I might be a bit biased. That said, I think the show has captured her "transition" fairly well, as well as her fixation on the eggs.

The biggest hindrance to her development is the lack of context for non-readers. Like you brought up, there's really no mention of her house having any relation to dragons, so for the uninitiated, it probably seems like she just has a strange curiosity about them.

[Memory Lane]

Loras said:

Surely she would be more terrified of Drogo than she was on her wedding night?

It's hard to say. I re-read the Dany chapters from the book, and most of her fear on the wedding night is dread and anticipation about what Khal Drogo will do to her once they actually have to have sex (he turns out to be surprisingly gentle).

[Tywin's bastard]

Guardsman Bass, on 25 April 2011 - 09:33 AM, said:

It's hard to say. I re-read the Dany chapters from the book, and most of her fear on the wedding night is dread and anticipation about what Khal Drogo will do to her once they actually have to have sex (he turns out to be surprisingly gentle).

That's only on the wedding night though. The book describes that she's constantly sore after being taken by Drogo every night after that and just as in the show it doesn't get better until she takes a stand and does it as she wants.

As to the first post, it might be a bit hard to grasp for new viewers since the Targaryens haven't been linked to dragons very strongly but otherwise I think the visual aspect of showing the eggs with her works well and it's not more blunt than doing something that states it outright. I'm also very glad I don't have to watch the show with people that have sarcastic remarks on things like that as I would be really annoyed (a worse failure as a viewer than anything the show itself as failed with).

[BlackStoneCA]

I always thought the pacing in the first book was a bit forced and she went from unwilling bride to active and willing wife too swift.   Part of the issue I think is the lack of a time line or sense of passage on time, especially on the TV.  Months can go by in the blink of an eye on TV, but to our mind, it looks like only a few seconds or minutes to us.   Look at how far the grasslands are from Pentos, and they had been on the trail long enough for Dany to grow a bit petulant at having only dried horse meat to eat.  At least a month or two had passed since their events in Episode 1, a lot happen in a month, and in the books, a lot of that was inner monologue.

I think the series does the best that it can given that, and I thought the bit with the eggs was not overdone.  There has to be hooks for non-readers to latch onto since they never really "hear" what is going on in these character's heads.  Much of the start of GoT is that inner monologue.   I think in the book we are beyond that where dialog and action starting coming to the forefront.

[Bronn Stone]

CryFenril, on 25 April 2011 - 09:30 AM, said:

Plus, we have seen Drogo several times, but the only word he has been given to speak that we could understand is still "no". We hear translated Dothraki first from Dany. Odd.

Unless Illyrio or Ser Jorah is present to translate, Dothraki makes no sense to Daenerys right now.  She (and we) will learn.  But her memorizing a phrase to soothe her Khal was perfect.  Without that, she'd have never gotten Drogo on his back.

[tybeechris]

Within the time constraints, the Lannisters and Starks have been able to nail their family relationships. I think non-readers will now know to expect the unexpected and not be surprised by the cruelty.

Dany, however, needs some more serious character development. Khal seems more like a Klingon than a leader and no one is going to believe a little sex kitten all of a sudden becoming a major power player unless they fill in some details.

On the whole though, a real treat and it can only help the sale of the books and maybe, just maybe, spur GRRM to finish just a teeny bit quicker.

[Isabella Stark]

Loras, on 25 April 2011 - 07:59 AM, said:

That's a departure from my original point, but I think it's important none the less.  Anyway, so Dany decides to take control over her sex life with a man that she sees as a dangerous savage.  Doreah adds at the end of the scene where she is teaching Dany the Lyseni version of the Kama Sutraby saying "if he wanted the Dothraki way, he wouldn't have married her".  While Doreah did not understand the real reason for the marriage, certainly gold from Illyrio, this line was presented in a way that made it seem like Dany was chosen by Drogo - rather than the fact that he would have married whoever had the largest dowry!  

I'm rereading GOT now.  Although I don't recall the books ever going into Drogo's reasons for marrying Dany and I'm not seeing any such discussion in my current rereading, my understanding has always been that Dany WAS chosen by Drogo.

[Upjumped]

The Dany storyline was never my favorite in the books.   Now, after seeing two episodes of the show, I feel exactly the same way -- I find it boring and ridiculous.  Part of this is due to the way the books themselves are constructed, but watching Dany go from painful degrading sex to empowered sexy sex does not really make for a compelling narrative when you are not privy to her inner thoughts.  I feel genuinely bad for Emilia Clark for having to make her acting debut under these circumstances.   The Dothraki scenes were one of my main concerns before the show began and I have seen nothing so far to ease those concerns (and I sincerely love the rest of the show).   I can only hope that in the coming weeks things improve on the Dothraki front once we get into the conflicts with Viserys etc etc.

[The Brandon Stark]

Honestly I don't think I liked Dany in the books until she hatched some dragons. The last chapter. Her chapters were always good despite her, not because of her like with other characters (Tyrion, Jon, Arya). Drogo crowning Viserys, the house of the Undying, Arstan/ Belwas/ Brown Ben Plumm/ Dario characters all are memorable, but not because of Dany. So watching on TV, Drogo is done right so is Viserys. I'm happy with it.<br><br>Yes the undying and Arstan and crew are from later books. And again it was what kept me reading her chapters instead of scanning them...<br>

Edited by Tywin's Golden Deuce, 25 April 2011 - 04:04 PM.

[CryFenril]

Bronn Stone, on 25 April 2011 - 12:04 PM, said:

Unless Illyrio or Ser Jorah is present to translate, Dothraki makes no sense to Daenerys right now.  She (and we) will learn.  But her memorizing a phrase to soothe her Khal was perfect.  Without that, she'd have never gotten Drogo on his back.

That's precisely why it bothers me - we have seen no translations up to this point, and we have seen nothing of her learning the language. To have her suddenly pop up with a perfect Dothraki phrase without any detail as to how she learned it was a bit jarring for me. Obviously readers will know that one of her maids has been bought specifically to teach her the language, but in the series... nada.

So far, Drogo has been simply an object to react to for Dany, and not really a character in and of himself. I hope this changes soon.

[WinterDreams]

I noticed that some of the people who commented on this page had complaints about the sped-up development of Dany's character. I have to say that this problem of time passing either too quickly or that is is not clear when or how much time has passed between scenes is something that I have noticed in other HBO productions, like Rome for example.

Personally, Dany is one of my favourite characters in the book (although I try not to pick favourites too much) and I have to say that I was afraid they were going to butcher her character, but I think that for the most part and keeping with the reality that it is a tv show and things are not going to be exactly mirroring the books, then I feel rather pleased with Emilia Clarke's portrayal of her.

What I liked in particular was how she really comes off almost doll-like in the first episode, she clearly is very hesitant and childlike, underneath her brother. But as this episode went on, I began to see the emergence of an actual personality which really made her sections of the episode that much better.

[Yvone]

I haven't read the books so as someone new to the story, here's my take on it... I understood from what was shown that there's significance to the dragon's eggs for Dany although I don't understand what it is about them that have made them fascinating to her. I didn't really see her drawing strength from them. Initially I merely thought that they provided a focus for her, something else to think about than the situation she finds herself in, married to a foreign brute and stranger (as he is to her at the beginning) and having to endure sex, before she started to learn how to enjoy it.

Loras, on 25 April 2011 - 07:59 AM, said:

Isn't the point of Chekhov's gun that we know they are there, but they don't come into play until later?  If they are forced on me much more I'm going to start hoping that D&D make a departure from the books and let Viserys kill Dany by hitting her on the head with one!

This may be because you already know the story. I'm not sure that I'd have taken much notice of the dragon's eggs if they were only shown as a wedding gift. As they've been featured so far, I'm guessing their introduction will bear significant meaning at a later stage. If they keep on highlighting them in future episodes to the point of irritation, I'll probably lose interest. But for now and also from what you say, I take it these eggs won't be something to ignore in the future, just like Chekhov's gun.

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While Doreah did not understand the real reason for the marriage, certainly gold from Illyrio, this line was presented in a way that made it seem like Dany was chosen by Drogo - rather than the fact that he would have married whoever had the largest dowry!

I have no trouble believing that the dowry was the reason for Drogo to marry her since it was decided before he even set eyes on her and for that reason, the dowry was how he initially "chose" her. For now, I also have no trouble believing that he wouldn't have gone through with it if he didn't like what he saw of her physical appearance. His appearance on horseback at their house seemed to have the main purpose of checking out his bride-to-be.

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My biggest gripe about the way that the show has present Dany so far is that we seem to have lost a transitional step.  While we are meant to believe that she has evolved throughout this second episode it remains implausible to methat she would have developed any autonomy as Khaleesi.  Surely she would be more terrified of Drogo than she was on her wedding night?

I admired her attempt to take some control and took it as development of her character, or at least a way of getting to know her character better. She doesn't seem to be one to remain miserable if she can help it and she obviously has strength of character to try to change things. In choosing to do what she could "to make the Khal happy" instead of letting him use her forevermore, it looks to me like she discovered that she could have some enjoyment too.

[ohmahgaw]

Yvone, on 25 April 2011 - 07:20 PM, said:

I haven't read the books so as someone new to the story

If you plan to read the books, you shouldn't be in a thread that is clearly marked with book spoilers unless you want some really awesome parts of the series ruined for you. Seriously, I would stick to the other threads. If you don't plan on reading the books you're more than welcome here, but consider yourself warned know what I mean?

Your input is interesting and appreciated though, I keep wondering how this show is coming off to non-readers.

[Yvone]

Thanks for advice but I've always had a weakness for spoilers. Have a notoriously bad memory too so by the time I ever get around to reading the books, I'll likely have forgotten what I was originally spoiled about anyways. Plus, while I'd like to read the books, I'm not sure I'll have time to do so anytime soon.

[The Brandon Stark]

Yvone, on 25 April 2011 - 09:43 PM, said:

Thanks for advice but I've always had a weakness for spoilers. Have a notoriously bad memory too so by the time I ever get around to reading the books, I'll likely have forgotten what I was originally spoiled about anyways. Plus, while I'd like to read the books, I'm not sure I'll have time to do so anytime soon.

Brave, quite a bit gets spoiled here...

[Yvone]

Ah well, that's what we all get for coming in to spoiler threads. I'm well used to it and have yet to regret spoiling myself. Will only be my own fault if I do though.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

CryFenril, on 25 April 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:

That's precisely why it bothers me - we have seen no translations up to this point, and we have seen nothing of her learning the language. To have her suddenly pop up with a perfect Dothraki phrase without any detail as to how she learned it was a bit jarring for me. Obviously readers will know that one of her maids has been bought specifically to teach her the language, but in the series... nada.

So far, Drogo has been simply an object to react to for Dany, and not really a character in and of himself. I hope this changes soon.

In the first episode, we see Dany being given her maids on her wedding, and I could have sworn they mentioned one of them teaching her the language in the first episode, but even if they didn't, is it really that hard of a stretch for people to make? It'd be odd for Dany not to be learning the language of the people's she's married into, and I think it'd make sense for Doreah to have specifically coached Dany on how to say that phrase, knowing she'd need to explain to Drogo what she was doing.

[Loras]

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For me, Dany is doing everything right, as much as can be expected with the time constraints. My problem lies with the half-finished look and feel of the entire Eastern arc of the story, particularly the halfhearted portrayal of the Dothraki as a people.

I thought that some of the nuance in the second episode was lost on Clarke, which I found disappointing, especially after how well she came across in the first episode.  It makes me very concerned that Clarke may not have developed well enough as an actor to carry a storyline on her own, yet.  Especially not when she isn't acting with the more seasoned performers such as Glen or Momoa.  

But you are right, this is only exacerbated by the simplistic and unnecessarily 'flat' portrayal of the Dothraki.  I think Glen's line about ghost grass conquering the world was meant to add depth to the tribe, but Dany clearly rubbished that in her head.  I keep speaking about nuance, but there is definitely nothing to add any depth to the Dothraki.  Look for example at Cat's effigy to the Seven, or comments like 'Lord Tyrion needs extra candles' - these are background moments that add tremendous depth to the Winterfell storyline, but in the Dothraki sea there is no such nuance.

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I always thought the pacing in the first book was a bit forced and she went from unwilling bride to active and willing wife too swift. Part of the issue I think is the lack of a time line or sense of passage on time, especially on the TV. Months can go by in the blink of an eye on TV, but to our mind, it looks like only a few seconds or minutes to us.

Yes, the pacing of the episode has definitely compounded the issue, but that being said, Dany looks extremely unhappy in the first scene - a logical evolution from where we left her in the previous episode.  What I don't understand, in terms of the show and not the book, is why the audience is expected to believe that this girl would act out of character to try and take control of her life.  I think that this is a pretty major oversight.

That being said, we have constant referrals to how much time has passed.  Cersei's " we've been travelling for a month" or Cat's "I've prayed for a month".  I'm assuming of course that Dany's tv timeline is in sync with the other characters.

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I think the series does the best that it can given that, and I thought the bit with the eggs was not overdone. There has to be hooks for non-readers to latch onto since they never really "hear" what is going on in these character's heads

.

Granted, but there is a fine difference between giving the viewers hooks and insulting their intelligence, which is how I feel about the eggs.  I understand that they are the key prop in Dany's story, as I referred to them before they are her Chekhov's gun.  But we do know that she has them, they are pretty and everyone knows that they are going to hatch.  Without any exposition on why dragons are important, the eggs are too much and definitely not something Damy should be summoning inner strength from.

I think I'm generally unimpressed by the Dothraki people, the lack of explanation behind the evolution of a key relationship and all this talk of dragons without any explanation as to their significance.