40 replies to this topic

[Xenophon]

CryFenril, on 25 April 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:

That's precisely why it bothers me - we have seen no translations up to this point, and we have seen nothing of her learning the language. To have her suddenly pop up with a perfect Dothraki phrase without any detail as to how she learned it was a bit jarring for me. Obviously readers will know that one of her maids has been bought specifically to teach her the language, but in the series... nada.

Didn't bother me and I didn't really remember when she learns the language in the books.  We've hardly seen anything of her interactions with the other Dothraki, but it's seems like she's been there a while, so it's not really surprising that she's picking up some of the language.

I'm agree with the OP that those bloody eggs showed up a lot in the episode without any explanation, but, again, it didn't bother me.  It just felt a touch heavy-handed, as if the director was afraid you were checking your email the first time he showed them.

[Forgiven]

Well, well, I can't really unread the book in my mind and think of the things that way, for me it's been quite fine so far.

Yet, I have said this somewhere else, and while it's too late to change anything...
I really wish they had not cast Dany and Dothraki at all for this season, or even next few.
They are, after all, rather isolated, by all mean, keep referring them in conversations while in westeros, then throw in maybe a tv movie about how Targyerens lost their power, and make a spinoff show of one whole season about what happened to Daenerys before merging the storylines for season 3 or 4 or even 5 of the main series.

Would have cut the amount of introduced characters nicely (which I still find biggest potential problem for new viewers), and allowed for more time to go into details of both sides, surely there's enough material in the books for that. Shame no one realized to ask me about this.

[Balefont]

CryFenril, on 25 April 2011 - 09:30 AM, said:

Plus, we have seen Drogo several times, but the only word he has been given to speak that we could understand is still "no". We hear translated Dothraki first from Dany. Odd.

But don't forget, the eastern arc is only from Dany's POV so it makes perfect sense that we, as viewers, don't get to understand what's being said in Dothraki before Dany can.

ETA: Regarding pacing, also don't forget, Dany's first post-wedding chapter contains a bit of flashback/re-cap as to what's been happening with her while traveling with the Khalessar to Vaes Dothrak.  Again, it makes sense that we don't get all the steps in between from the wedding to the girl who takes charge of her situation.  It's actually following the book.

Edited by Balefont, 26 April 2011 - 07:48 PM.

[Balefont]

I think Drogo was curious about Dany - as an exotic exile - curious enough to consider wedding her.  I think, had Dany not been able to hold his eye upon that first meeting (looking down, acting cowed and frightened) the Khal may not have agree to marrying her.  Just my opinion.  I think the Khal knew he'd need a girl with the right kind of spirit.

[aeu]

tybeechris, on 25 April 2011 - 12:18 PM, said:

Dany, however, needs some more serious character development. Khal seems more like a Klingon than a leader and no one is going to believe a little sex kitten all of a sudden becoming a major power player unless they fill in some details.

When you say "all of a sudden" do you mean "by the end of season 3"?

Forget about being a major power player, Dany doesn't even become a leader until the end of AGOT. She starts learning to be a good leader in ACOK. There is more than enough time for her character development.

CryFenril, on 25 April 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:

That's precisely why it bothers me - we have seen no translations up to this point, and we have seen nothing of her learning the language. To have her suddenly pop up with a perfect Dothraki phrase without any detail as to how she learned it was a bit jarring for me. Obviously readers will know that one of her maids has been bought specifically to teach her the language, but in the series... nada.
hanges soon.

I had no idea that one of her maids was bought for that purpose. I might have known it once upon a time, though I definitely do not remember at this point, even after you mentioned it.

When I was watching the series, I was pretty amused when Dany said those words in Dorthaki. To me, it was clear that she learned the specific phrase from someone. It  made me go "Well done Danny, that was pretty smart of you!"

Edited by aeu, 26 April 2011 - 11:44 PM.

[Winterbane]

Loras, on 25 April 2011 - 07:59 AM, said:

Let me start off by saying this: I am not a Dany hater, nor am I particularly a Dany lover.

After episode 2, 'The Kingsroad', Dany has completed her first mini arc of the season.  She has progressed from being horrified and terrified by Drogo and his kalasar, to taking initiative and a more active role in how her experience with them shall progress.  I have the added benefit of watching the series with my partner who has not read the books, so part of this post will be his input.

It must be said that so far I have been very impressed with Emilia Clarke in her portrayal of Dany.  Particularly in the first episode she seemed to capture the timid little girl who has been somewhat bullied and molested by her brother and sold out to a "savage" horselord.  The second episode shows us two very different sides of Dany; a sulky teenager who wants something else to eat but horse and a sultry Khaleesi with an aim to 'please' the husband that she is so terrified of.  Independently I like all of these images of Dany, but in the context of the Tv series they don't make sense...

Unless we are expected to believe that looking at her dragon eggs while Drogo has his way with her gives her the inner strength to take control of the situation.  As readers of the books, gifted with an insightful monologue into how Dany is feeling and what she is thinking, we know that this is her motive.  But for those who haven't, the evolution of the character seems a little stilted and unlike the character we see in the first episode.  At this point, we don't know that the Targaryen's have any sort of affinity with dragons - despite Viserys' jarring quip of 'you don't want to wake the dragon' from the first episode and Dany getting inner strength from the over exploited dragon eggs.  We are even led to believe that Dany the Targaryen, who knows all about waking the dragon does not know that dragons are extinct?

My partner turned to me at one point and said, "that girl is obsessed with those bloody eggs, I get it already" swiftly followed by, "let's do a drinking game - every time those eggs appear on screen let's do a shot!"

Isn't the point of Chekhov's gun that we know they are there, but they don't come into play until later?  If they are forced on me much more I'm going to start hoping that D&D make a departure from the books and let Viserys kill Dany by hitting her on the head with one!

That's a departure from my original point, but I think it's important none the less.  Anyway, so Dany decides to take control over her sex life with a man that she sees as a dangerous savage.  Doreah adds at the end of the scene where she is teaching Dany the Lyseni version of the Kama Sutraby saying "if he wanted the Dothraki way, he wouldn't have married her".  While Doreah did not understand the real reason for the marriage, certainly gold from Illyrio, this line was presented in a way that made it seem like Dany was chosen by Drogo - rather than the fact that he would have married whoever had the largest dowry!  

My biggest gripe about the way that the show has present Dany so far is that we seem to have lost a transitional step.  While we are meant to believe that she has evolved throughout this second episode it remains implausible to methat she would have developed any autonomy as Khaleesi.  Surely she would be more terrified of Drogo than she was on her wedding night?

I don't think it is a surprise that the rest of the Dothraki were presented in a more sympathetic light in this episode, note the children laughing and playing.

I wonder how you all feel about the evolution of Dany in these first two episodes? Is it for you, as it is for me, the weakest link of an otherwise stellar opening?  I'd love to read your comments.

I don't disagree that this is the weakest part of the show (well, the prologue was worse by far) or with the majority of your points. But I have a minor quibble. I think it is you who are misreading Drogo immensely if you think he took Dany because of a big dowry. I thought Doreah's line hit the nail on the head and was more effective than any equivalent from the book. Overall, I think this arc improved immensely from episode 1 to 2.

[Dennai]

Loras, on 25 April 2011 - 07:59 AM, said:

That's a departure from my original point, but I think it's important none the less.  Anyway, so Dany decides to take control over her sex life with a man that she sees as a dangerous savage.  Doreah adds at the end of the scene where she is teaching Dany the Lyseni version of the Kama Sutraby saying "if he wanted the Dothraki way, he wouldn't have married her".  While Doreah did not understand the real reason for the marriage, certainly gold from Illyrio, this line was presented in a way that made it seem like Dany was chosen by Drogo - rather than the fact that he would have married whoever had the largest dowry!  

Where did you get that from?

The TV series hasn't made any reference of Drogo being lured by any dowry. They present it as a possible deal. Droge gets the bride, Viserys get military support for his claim. The khal comes to see his potential bride-to be, and he's happy with what he sees. Deal done.

  I particularly like Belafon's interpretation:

Quote

I think, had Dany not been able to hold his eye upon that first meeting (looking down, acting cowed and frightened) the Khal may not have agree to marrying her. Just my opinion. I think the Khal knew he'd need a girl with the right kind of spirit.

The books make no comment of any dowry either. Neither Viserys mentions gold or jewels or any other valuables when he's bitching about the delay in getting his army. He sticks with the "he gets Dany, I get my crown". Even when he tries to force the issue in Vaes Dothrak, he only mentions Dany and the eggs, which were a bridal gift not a part of a paid price.

  The only dowry I can think of is some potential promise from Viserys of a handsome reward to Drogo once he's set on the Iron Throne, and we don't even have any indication from the books that is the case.

  Certainly, Illyrio didn't provide any dowry. All the opposite:

"Dany had heard tales of such eggs, but she had never seen one, nor thought to see one. It was a truly magnificent gift, though she know Illyrio could afford to be lavish. He had collected a fortune in horses and slaves for his part in selling her to Khal Drogo" (AGOT, Daenerys 2, Harper Voyager paperback, pp. 104)

  I think the idea of marrying the last survivor of an exotic, prestigious, powerful and slightly mythic race was the driving force behind Drogo's decision. He'd have a woman by his side such as no other khal had in the past, no other khal could ever have in the future.

[Balefont]

Dennai, on 27 April 2011 - 06:27 AM, said:

  I think the idea of marrying the last survivor of an exotic, prestigious, powerful and slightly mythic race was the driving force behind Drogo's decision. He'd have a woman by his side such as no other khal had in the past, no other khal could ever have in the future.

Precisely.

Recall how Vaes Dothrak is littered with exotic articles from conquered lands and kingdoms.  What better than to have a living relic as your wife?

[Yvone]

Dennai, on 27 April 2011 - 06:27 AM, said:

  I think the idea of marrying the last survivor of an exotic, prestigious, powerful and slightly mythic race was the driving force behind Drogo's decision. He'd have a woman by his side such as no other khal had in the past, no other khal could ever have in the future.

I can very well believe that. And going back to the question of a dowry, it's interesting to note that no dowry was ever mentioned. Is it weird that Drogo somehow goes up in my estimation of him because of that?! I re-watched the first ep and we really do only get more of the reason for Viserys's benefit in offering his sister for marriage saying "I know how to play a man like Drogo. I give him a queen and he gives me an army". As I already suspected, there's more to Drogo than first meets the eye. Although the marriage was already arranged before he ever saw Dany, I also don't get the impression that Drogo is the type of man to marry just anyone and I think his first time to see her sealed the deal for him, whether that was based on physical appearance alone or combined with the fact that Dany did meet his eye directly.

[The Anti-Targ]

They really needed to do a Galladriel monologue giving a potted history of Westeros and the Targs. They kinda do it with the opening credits, but without exposition the information you can get from the opening credits is going to be lost on a lot of non-readers. In about 2 minutes they could have gone from the doom of Valyria through to Robert's rebellion and given people a pretty decent historical context for the story.

Perhaps at some point old Nan will summarise things for Bran or someone in KL will summarise for Arya. Or perhaps Tyrion will summarise things for Jon. Maybe Jorah will discuss a few things with Dany. Though the younger the listener the less the exposition comes across as forceed for the benefit of the audience rather than being a natural part of story.

I personally thing Dany should have shown some knowledge of dragons from the perspective of her own family history, i.e. that the Targ dragons died out generations ago, but enquire whether other populations of dragons might still linger.

Dany's story is almost as good as it could be for TV adaptation.

[Axon]

When I first read the books I was totally jarred by Dany's chapters.  I actually skipped over them a bit, as I didn't really get them and did not have the patience or desire to understand. The Stark/Lannister plotline was too good. Then I slowly got into her character a little more and more, but it took time, almost all three of the first books. I have read the House of the Undying chapter more than any other, as I'm sure many have.

Dany is now my favorite and I perceive her as the rightful ruler of Westeros. However, she has gotten a litttttle bit annoying of late, but we'll see what happens in ADWD.  As I explained to my GF, she's the most or nearly the most important character overall, though to her, that concept seems impossible at this stage.  When she prompted me to offer more, I told her all of Dany's nicknames, and she was like, "what is she, a rapper?"  hahahahahhaha

Edited by Axon, 28 April 2011 - 10:45 AM.

[Xenophon]

The Anti-Targ, on 27 April 2011 - 11:29 PM, said:

They really needed to do a Galladriel monologue giving a potted history of Westeros and the Targs. They kinda do it with the opening credits, but without exposition the information you can get from the opening credits is going to be lost on a lot of non-readers. In about 2 minutes they could have gone from the doom of Valyria through to Robert's rebellion and given people a pretty decent historical context for the story.

In the previews we see Viserys telling Doreah(?) a little bit about the history of the Targs while they're having sex in a bath.  So it seems like they're going to fill us in piece by piece.  Also, HBO has that viewers guide, so if you need to know more now, you can look at that.  I think it's a pretty cool decision to let things develop slowly in the show itself, while relying on external multimedia to fill in the viewers who want more clarity.

[GileanTheGrey]

The Anti-Targ, on 27 April 2011 - 11:29 PM, said:

I personally thing Dany should have shown some knowledge of dragons from the perspective of her own family history, i.e. that the Targ dragons died out generations ago, but enquire whether other populations of dragons might still linger.

Dany's story is almost as good as it could be for TV adaptation.

The only problem with this is that all Dany knows of her family history is whatever Viserys has told her. She has lived literally her entire life in exile with only Viserys as family. If Viserys never mentioned that dragons were extinct, she'd have no real way of knowing unless she had previously specifically asked someone else.

[Aoife]

While I think that's mostly true, I do think she learned some from Darry, and probably some from Mopatis as well. The Darry info would probably be more Westerosi-biased, and (also probably!) less manipulative, but I find it unlikely that either refrained from talking about dragons entirely, especially with Viserys' references.

With respect to the Targaryen dragons, I think it's unlikely that Viserys has not once said "if only we had still had dragons, the Usurper would never have won" or something to that effect. But then I got the impression that she really was only asking about "far-off" or "foreign" dragons, i.e., that she was doing what Anti-Targ would have liked to have seen, meaning he and I interpreted that part differently.

[Xenophon]

Aoife Trevgaryen, on 29 April 2011 - 12:31 PM, said:

With respect to the Targaryen dragons, I think it's unlikely that Viserys has not once said "if only we had still had dragons, the Usurper would never have won" or something to that effect. But then I got the impression that she really was only asking about "far-off" or "foreign" dragons, i.e., that she was doing what Anti-Targ would have liked to have seen, meaning he and I interpreted that part differently.

Yeah, that's how I took it too.  That she thought her handmaids might have seen dragons out East.  I know it doesn't make perfect sense, since she seems to be asking the non-Dothraki one, but perhaps she had traveled to the East before being sold to Illyrio/Dany.

[Rand]

Dennai, on 27 April 2011 - 06:27 AM, said:

  I think the idea of marrying the last survivor of an exotic, prestigious, powerful and slightly mythic race was the driving force behind Drogo's decision. He'd have a woman by his side such as no other khal had in the past, no other khal could ever have in the future.

Yeah this is exactly how I saw it as well, and as it's been pointed out in the books it mentions that Drogo actually payed a dowry for Dany.  But I'd also like to add that perhaps even more important for Drogo than having a rare exotic wife, is the potential for having powerful exotic children.  I'd imagine what he's primarily after is Dothraki/Valyrian babies, or mixing the blood of Khal Drogo with the blood of Aegon the Conqueror (I think that's the right name?).  

Another thing, while it doesn't come out on TV, isn't the point of the dragons egg that they quite literally strengthened Dany?  People are talking about her turning things around and trying to take control, but last time I read the book she was about ready to drop from exhausting by the daily combination of horse raiding & sex, until she has a dream about dragons and starts feeling warmth from the eggs, at which point she almost magically heals. From that point on the daily pains became bearable, and it was then that she starts taking control of her life.

[Ser Warpechowski]

CryFenril, on 25 April 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:

That's precisely why it bothers me - we have seen no translations up to this point, and we have seen nothing of her learning the language. To have her suddenly pop up with a perfect Dothraki phrase without any detail as to how she learned it was a bit jarring for me. Obviously readers will know that one of her maids has been bought specifically to teach her the language, but in the series... nada.

So far, Drogo has been simply an object to react to for Dany, and not really a character in and of himself. I hope this changes soon.

I dont think so. He dies soon and I think they will only use him for the transition when Dany becomes powerfull.

They have too much stuff to show, things like dreams, secondary characters and flashbacks wont be showed. I just hope they filmed some adicional scenes that werent in the series and we are able to see them on the future DVD´s.

Edited by Ser Warpechowski, 29 April 2011 - 02:30 PM.

[Xenophon]

Ser Warpechowski, on 29 April 2011 - 02:30 PM, said:

I dont think so. He dies soon and I think they will only use him for the transition when Dany becomes powerfull.

Jason Momoa did say in an interview that his character has an arc, where he opens up as Dany shows him new things.  Admittedly, that's in the same interview where he says Drogo is a lion crossed with a silverback, so I don't know how much depth we're really going to get, but it shows they are trying to develop him into more of a character in his own right.

[Yvone]

Would they deviate from the story that much though? I hope they do! Drogo is an interesting character and worthwhile discovering more about him, I think.

Xenophon, by any chance do you have a link to the interview you mention?

[jorrit]

Xenophon, on 28 April 2011 - 10:54 AM, said:

In the previews we see Viserys telling Doreah(?) a little bit about the history of the Targs while they're having sex in a bath.  So it seems like they're going to fill us in piece by piece.  Also, HBO has that viewers guide, so if you need to know more now, you can look at that.  I think it's a pretty cool decision to let things develop slowly in the show itself, while relying on external multimedia to fill in the viewers who want more clarity.

In which preview is that please?