[BOOK SPOILERS] Ep. 102 Discussion Part the Second

[Kat]

Not if the fever was the mother's (and the cover story).

ETA: I'm sure we'll hear more about this story down the road.

We are on the same wavelength. I agree.

Also, to whomever mentioned it before, a premature birth would also make sense. I just didn't get the idea that Cersei had had a live baby for any significant amount of time, by which I mean more than a few hours, if at all.

[Bronn Stone]

We are on the same wavelength. I agree.

Also, to whomever mentioned it before, a premature birth would also make sense. I just didn't get the idea that Cersei had had a live baby for any significant amount of time, by which I mean more than a few hours, if at all.

Almost certainly not. This would have been the sort of tale that would have spread far and wide. A live prince is big news.

[Mya Stone]

We are on the same wavelength. I agree.

Also, to whomever mentioned it before, a premature birth would also make sense. I just didn't get the idea that Cersei had had a live baby for any significant amount of time, by which I mean more than a few hours, if at all.

I'm on your wavelength.

I just thought about how after Hoster made Lysa drink the pansy tea she had issues carrying children to term (and the one she did is uh...not exactly okay :P), and assumed that Cersei (either intentionally or not) drank pansy tea regularly to ensure that no child of Robert's would stand a chance in her womb, and she had issues with the pregnancy. I highly doubt it would have been publicized.

From Cersei's comments on the child alone, I imagine it was born, lived a few hours, and succumbed to a fever (but really wouldn't have stood a chance any way).

[Huan]

In reference to complaints about the development of the Hound and other characters, I think we all are forgetting that it took 2 to 3 books for us to really form our complete impressions of the characters. At this point in the story, the Hound was really no more than a lapdog for Joeffrey who made short jokes to Tyrion and didn't seem to give a shit that he just ran down a butchers boy. I don't think we get a good introduction to his character until he walks Sansa home from the Hand's tournament.

Agreed, it's hard to remember back to my first impression of the Hound. I think I didn't really pay attention to him until the scene with Sansa after the tournament feast. The episode 2 analysis hints that the Hound is portrayed differently in the tournament scene: "These are not, we might hint, the only changes when it comes to his character—keep an eye out for episode 4." Can't wait to see that scene!

[Mandiric]

Another awesome episode.

This has to be the role of a lifetime for Peter Dinklage; I cannot wait to see what he does with the character as the story progresses. I’m sure he’ll hit it out of the park and I hope he’ll be showered with awards.

Maisie Williams is adorable! I think it’s going to be very difficult watching her deal with all the darkness Arya encounters, because I have a feeling she’s going to do a bang-up job of acting it convincingly. Quite impressive for someone so young.

Sean Bean was worth every penny. My friends and I have been retreating to the back patio after episodes to babble excitedly about what we just watched, and it wasn’t until things were winding down last night that we finally mentioned something about Bean’s performance. Rather surprising considering he’s the “main” character, but we decided that we’d inadvertently skipped over him to that point because he’s just doing such a terrific job.

Gotta give props to Jack Gleeson too. It’s been mentioned several times that he has the kind of face you instinctively want to hit, but that doesn’t really take much work on his part. So I think it’s cool that he did an excellent job of showing the sniveling, cowardly weakling that is Joffrey Baratheon. I wonder how his parents have prepared him for the audience’s perception of his character. “Honey, people are going to cheer when you get killed.” Chin up, kiddo, and here’s to you not getting typecast the rest of your life.

My nit for the week is the dialogue change they made for Theon in the godswood scene, when Catelyn is airing her suspicions. In the show, I think someone was talking about the possibility of battle with the Lannisters, and Theon said something to Robb like, “You know I’ll stand with you.” In the book, Theon says to Catelyn, “My lady, if it comes to that, my house owes yours a great debt.” Which is ominous as hell considering what Theon does later. I feel like D&D are giving Theon short shrift so far and I don’t quite understand it.

Can’t wait to meet Littlefinger next week.

[thorny throne]

Sansa being taller than Joff is very much unlike the books, because they stress there that Joff is tall for his age.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Anyone who didn't realise Cat has a dislike for Jon after that isn't too bright. No offense.

[smegma]

Ya know, I hate to even acknowledge the people that have so many problems with the series - but here it goes:

Learn to like it, changes and all. Otherwise, why waste an hour a week watching (and countless more hating on it and/or discussing why it's so inferior to the books). It's going to be different than the books, as we've seen. But whole chocks of scenes are lifted right out of them as well - I've almost never seen such a faithful adaption (maybe The Princess Bride, but what a relatively easy hill to climb versus the Everest that is ASOIAF). The show is GREAT - better than even I, as an optimist, could have hoped. I love some of the changes because it gives me something to look forward to. I know the books as well as anyone here, but I am not hanging on each scene for every line to be delivered as it was in the books. It's actually a wonderful surprise to not know exactly what is coming, which is almost as enjoyable as watching it with non-readers that still manage to GET IT - and many of these people now want to read the books as well.

These are two different mediums. We will eventually learn everyone's name, everyone's reason for being around. Many shows with large casts (especially HBO) lets their characters unfold only as necessary. We will learn why Theon is there and who he is. EVERYONE with half a brain knows that Cat hates Jon's presence. Ghost will feature more prominitenly when he can (although not as much as the books, for training reasons). We will understand more about Dany and Drogo, and the names of the Lannister kids is SO not important right now. It's not like a book where people are generally named right away - the show gives us visuals, and beautiful ones at that.

If each change is going to bring out the hater in you, maybe it's not worth watching. I don't want anyone to NOT watch, cause I think it's a great show and we all know it will only get better - and I want the ratings to be as good as possible. But maybe rethink WHY you are watching it - are you watching it to see a book transcribed word-for-word onto the screen, or can you learn to accept it as a different thing altogether, and love the fan-service when it's there, love the new scenes we get, and be glad that a whole new slew of people are being exposed to the story that you've been raving about for years - and they now GET why you love it so much.

Anyway, maybe haters are gonna hate, some drink the kool-aid too much, but really, who is having the better time of it?

[Mya Stone]

Anyway, maybe haters are gonna hate, some drink the kool-aid too much, but really, who is having the better time of it?

I, for one, love my huge ass Kool-Aid grin. :P

[Kalbear]

Yes, because god forbid that people who love the book series are disappointed with things and wish things went differently. How dare they be dissatisfied. There must be something WRONG with them. Who cares if they completely fuck over a certain character or edit out lines that they loved?

That disappointment should not matter to them. They should be grateful that they get anything and be thankful that it didn't get turned into XenaPorn on their local affiliate like Sword of Truth did.

Seriously, smegma - what a fucking condescending, shitty post that completely nukes any reasonable conversation.

[Ser Kevan Raley]

I just saw episode two The Kingsroad. It was very good, perhaps not as good as the first one but given what had to happen in it, it was probably unavoidable. I'm not sure what newbies will think - maybe they'll think it a bit slow? It's really difficult to judge if you're already a fan and know what will happen.

Some notes:

• Too few direwolves. I don't think their relationship and importance to the Stark kids are conveyed sufficiently. We see a little of Nymeria and then she's chased away. We see a little of Lady and then she's gone. And there was definitely a lack of Ghost as Jon rode off to the Wall.
  
• Joffrey is rather odd-looking. Isn't he supposed to be handsome? But the actor is really good at making him a spoiled brat and a coward.
  
• Maise Williams will be excellent as Arya. Incredible performance.
  
• Sophie Turner as Sansa was also surprisingly good, especially her delayed reaction to the news that Lady was being put down.
  
• Liked what little there was of the Hound. Better make-up here too, and I can understand why they didn't make his disfigurement as severe as in the book.
  
• "Get her a dog! She'll be happier for it." Heh, considering what's to come.
  
• The added scene with Jon and Jaime felt unnecessary. Why was it there other than show that Jaime is a smarmy prick?
  
• But I did like the added scene with Cersei and Catelyn in Bran's room. It gave some depth - and even sympathy - to Cersei's character. And the new info about her dead previously unmentioned first child gave newbies a hint about the parentage of the Royal children. But I'm sure such a black-haired child with Robert wasn't in the books.
  
• Peter Dinklage continues to rock as Tyrion. Very good scene at the Lannister breakfast and how he connected with Cersei's kids. Also good scene with Jon in the woods en route to the Wall. And how I laughed when he slapped Joffrey, thrice!
  
• The Wall. Awesome.
  
• Knowing what will happen, the Stark farewells felt very moving. They won't be together again.
  
• I'm on board with them not showing Bran's dream. That would probably have looked real hokey on screen, like some bad acid trip. Instead they did a nice kids/direwolves connection at the end when he awoke just as poor Lady was killed.
  
• Theon still hasn't been named, let alone ID-ed.
  
• While appealing to the eye, I'm not terribly excited by the Dany scenes, but then again I was never that in the books either. They felt too removed from the main Westerosi action.
  

[Tywin's bastard]

Anyway, maybe haters are gonna hate, some drink the kool-aid too much, but really, who is having the better time of it?

I agree with your entire post in general but when it comes to this part, I don't actually know if you can even drink the kool-aid too much. Getting a good cinematic experience is 50% the responsibility of the work itself (and those behind it) and 50% the responsibility of the viewer. If you aren't doing your best to be immersed in what you are watching, you aren't holding up your part.

I had some small problems focusing when I watched the first episode the first time because I kept being distracted by knowing the book. My verdict was not that they did wrong to change things, it was that I was a terrible viewer that time. Fortunately I did not have any such trouble watching the second episode the first time.

[Mya Stone]

Yes, because god forbid that people who love the book series are disappointed with things and wish things went differently. How dare they be dissatisfied. There must be something WRONG with them. Who cares if they completely fuck over a certain character or edit out lines that they loved?

That disappointment should not matter to them. They should be grateful that they get anything and be thankful that it didn't get turned into XenaPorn on their local affiliate like Sword of Truth did.

Seriously, smegma - what a fucking condescending, shitty post that completely nukes any reasonable conversation.

Cmon, Kal...XenaPorn sounds kind of awesome, don't you think?

[Kalbear]

I think I saw XenaPorn - it was Spartacus. Fortunately AGOT is not spartacus, though it's amusing to think of Tyrion walking around saying how the gods once again conspire to stick cock in arse or Cersei walking up to people and saying 'apologies' to start a sentence.

[Mya Stone]

I think I saw XenaPorn - it was Spartacus. Fortunately AGOT is not spartacus, though it's amusing to think of Tyrion walking around saying how the gods once again conspire to stick cock in arse or Cersei walking up to people and saying 'apologies' to start a sentence.

Ah, I didn't see Spartacus. I was more thinking about the potential awesomeness of Xena and that chick who followed her everywhere getting it on.

Yeah, I can totally be shallow too. :P

[jaeherys]

It's been forever since I've read AGOT, but some of the dialogue in this episode re-enforced my feelings about R+L=J.

I wonder if Ned knew the next time he saw Jon that Robert probably wouldn't be around? It'd make sense for Ned to not want Jon to know so long as Robert was alive...

I forgot about Ned not telling Robert what Wylla looked like.

[smegma]

Yes, because god forbid that people who love the book series are disappointed with things and wish things went differently. How dare they be dissatisfied. There must be something WRONG with them. Who cares if they completely fuck over a certain character or edit out lines that they loved?

That disappointment should not matter to them. They should be grateful that they get anything and be thankful that it didn't get turned into XenaPorn on their local affiliate like Sword of Truth did.

Seriously, smegma - what a fucking condescending, shitty post that completely nukes any reasonable conversation.

Sensitive, much?

I'm not talking about the people that say "oh man, wish they had shown that", but if you read through the threads, there are enough viewers/readers that have said that the show ISN'T doing its job, ISN'T adhering to the books and is therefore WRONG WRONG WRONG. There's a difference between constructive criticism and fanboy griping. I'm sure you can tell what is what. Or maybe you can't.

[Kalbear]

you'd very much like Spartacus then - since it basically has that going on. Especially the prequel series. If lesbianic sex with Lucy Lawless is what you want - there ya go.

[smegma]

I agree with your entire post in general but when it comes to this part, I don't actually know if you can even drink the kool-aid too much. Getting a good cinematic experience is 50% the responsibility of the work itself (and those behind it) and 50% the responsibility of the viewer. If you aren't doing your best to be immersed in what you are watching, you aren't holding up your part.

I had some small problems focusing when I watched the first episode the first time because I kept being distracted by knowing the book. My verdict was not that they did wrong to change things, it was that I was a terrible viewer that time. Fortunately I did not have any such trouble watching the second episode the first time.

I completely agree, a lot can be said for what people's expectations are and how they translate into their level of enjoyment, as well as their general attitude about it. It's obvious that the show is NOT shitty, is NOT being mismanaged, and has been put together with more care than anyone could have imagined. I've *never* seen such attention paid to fans, and frankly I think the "haters" (god I kinda hate that word) would never be satisfied no matter if they found real dragon DNA to make the three come to life for real at the end of the series.

[Kalbear]

I'm not talking about the people that say "oh man, wish they had shown that", but if you read through the threads, there are enough viewers/readers that have said that the show ISN'T doing its job, ISN'T adhering to the books and is therefore WRONG WRONG WRONG. There's a difference between constructive criticism and fanboy griping. I'm sure you can tell what is what. Or maybe you can't.

And I'm saying that telling them that they're not welcome here and that they're wrong wrong wrong is bullshit, condescension and malarkey of the highest order.

If there are enough readers/viewers that are saying that things aren't the way they wanted them to be and the show isn't doing its job, perhaps that's reasonable? Perhaps that's actually a fair criticism? And if it appeals to you - that's awesome, and shout it out from the rooftops - but it doesn't make their perceptions of it incorrect.

Here's another thing, smegma - some people actively enjoy nitpicking and snark. Others do enjoy nothing but sunshine out the ass and rainbows and puppies, but others really do get a kick from mocking and pointing out the issues. Saying that they are wrong to even enjoy that is bullshit.

I do think that it's hard to get a clear picture of what was and wasn't left in the show from the books with only seeing a few episodes, and I tend to be on board with most of the changes they've made (or at least understand why they made them), but telling others that they're wrong for the way they watch the show invites no criticism, conversation or even a sentence. Why bother coming to a board and telling people that? You can sit at home and not talk to people all you like.