104 replies to this topic

[navahgar]

I'm not entirely sure what counts as spoiler for the TV, or whether there will be book spoilers in this post, but I wanted to be on the safe side.  If you're worried about book spoilers do NOT read ahead.

     I made this post to discuss the possible hints at Jon's parentage in the TV episode.  I noticed two potential hints that Jon's father might actually be Benjen.  First, when Ned and Jon are talking on the road, right before Jon goes off north with Benjen, Jon asks Ned about his mother.  Ned says that Jon may not have his name, but he does have his blood.  After this line the camera cuts to Benjen riding in the distance.  I took that as a potential subtle hint that Jon could be Benjen's son.  Then later, when Jon and Tyrion are talking about the vagaries of Jon's new Night's Watch brothers, Tyrion says something like 'the thing about the Night's Watch is you leave one family, to join another'.  Yet again, at this point the camera cuts to Benjen.  I took this as another potential hint that Jon could be Benjen's son.

     Personally I'm strongly in the R + L = J camp.  However, I definitely think that the director was trying to suggest that Benjen was Jon's father.  Maybe that was to throw off the viewership, but maybe he has some hint of the truth from GRRM.  I'm not sure whether anyone has suggested this potential heritage from the books.  In that regard, in the book, I specifically remember Benjen telling Jon to father a few bastards of his own before he joined the Night's Watch.  Was that a suggestion that Benjen had fathered a bastard?  Thoughts?

[Bronn Stone]

The TV Benjen is old enough for that red herring to be credible.  Not so much the Benjen in the novels.  He would have to have been quite the child prodigy.

[TerraPrime]

Possible, but not plausible, imo.

If Benjen had been Snow's father, there's no reason not to claim him, unless he fathered Jon after he had joined the NW, which presents its own set of problem because if Benjen made Ned foster his after-the-NW bastard child, Ned would know that Benjen is an oath-breaker, and we know how Ned gets with that sort of business *cough*Ice*cough*. So far, we haven't received any clues to help resolve this conundrum, but we can't outright discard it.

My own hypothesis is that D&D are trying to throw us off the trail.

[TheEvilKing]

Sounds like a red herring to me. If Benjen was Jon's dad, why would Ned get all teary when talking about Jon's mother? (incredible acting by Sean Bean, by the way).

That, to me, indicates that Jon's mum is dead. Is Wylla dead? I can't remember.

[fionwe1987]

navahgar, on 25 April 2011 - 10:28 PM, said:

First, when Ned and Jon are talking on the road, right before Jon goes off north with Benjen, Jon asks Ned about his mother.  Ned says that Jon may not have his name, but he does have his blood.  After this line the camera cuts to Benjen riding in the distance.  I took that as a potential subtle hint that Jon could be Benjen's son.

  
This shot of Benjen is followed by Jon's question of his mother, though. It might also be a subtle hint that Benjen knows who Jon's mother is...

Also, there's another thing that has some relevance to Jon's parentage. When Cat is talking to Ned before he leaves, she says he left with Robert 17 years ago and returned with another woman's son. The wording itself is fairly significant, I think, but to add to that, Ned closes his eyes at that point, and I read that as either grief or guilt. This doesn't point to Lynanna being Jon's mother, but it certainly seems to suggest that maybe Ned isn't the father.

[smegma]

I'm thrilled with how D & D has portrayed the mystery - and even that quick shot at Benjen may be there to help confuse the rabid fans and throw us into hysteria. Frankly, I'm so thoroughly convinced of R + L=J that if it's anything else I may just throw my arms in the air and proclaim that GRRM changed it cause too many people figured it out (not that he would do that). But anyway, really love the handling of Jon's parentage thus far. Enough to not be locked into anything when they do an about face, but not so obscure that mindful new viewers may understand that there's more to the story than a simple common girl.

[KyleLitke]

Benjen pretty much can't be the father short of some really bizarre happenings involving the mother coming to Winterfell during the war then leaving. Remember, Benjen was at Winterfell the entirety of the war. "There must always be a Stark at Winterfell". With Ned off fighting the war and Rickard and Brandon dead, Benjen was there for the entire time.

Evilking: We don't know about Wylla, but we do know she was alive well after Jon's birth, and Edric Dayne never implies she's dead.

[Derfel Cadarn]

Won't be a mystery for much longer, as Ned will tell Jon all about it when he returns from the south.

Spoiler

Oh, wait...

[MattTaz]

I'll have to add to the above comment that i'm 99.9% convinced Lyanna is Jon's mother. I was convinced before, now the
tv series has basically confirmed it for me. Who from a TV series point of view would have the biggest impact. R&L has no equal.

Have to say how touched I was by Sean Bean's acting when he makes the promise to tell Jon who is mother was. That was brilliant

Edited by MattTaz, 26 April 2011 - 04:24 AM.

[Holymoly]

The Benjen: "I'm your father Luke" theory is quite attractive as I always thought the idea of Eddard fathering a bastard more of less exactly the same age as his eldest son was somewhat implausible given his high moral fiber and respect for his wife. I'm perfectly prepared to believe that Ned did this to protect his own brother from retribution given his oath to the Black Brotherhood. It also explains Benjen's repeated attentions given to Jon when he arrives from the wall for Robert's feast. Of course this could go either way in the remaining books.

[Linda]

R+L=J has been fact and not a theory in my mind for a very long time. So far, I'd say the show further confirms that matter, with the key line being Ned's "I promise", delivered oh so emotionally by Sean Bean. I can only see that as a clear echo of "Promise me, Ned".

Loved that scene. Probably favourite part of the episode.

[Tywin's bastard]

The shot of Benjen makes it clear. He's Jon's mother.

[Ser Luke]

R + L = J

pretty much convinced

[Lannes]

I, too, am a strong adherent to R+L=J.

The thing that has me wondering, though, is that with the rapidity the show is playing up the mystery of Jon's mother, it makes me wonder if that 'reveal' might be coming relatively soon, i.e.- in ADWD....

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Lannes, on 26 April 2011 - 09:32 AM, said:

I, too, am a strong adherent to R+L=J.

The thing that has me wondering, though, is that with the rapidity the show is playing up the mystery of Jon's mother, it makes me wonder if that 'reveal' might be coming relatively soon, i.e.- in ADWD....

I've thought about this too, but I think the subtle clues we've seen so far are included to plant the idea in the audience's head that something is amiss concerning Jon's parentage, but not necessarily to spill the beans too quickly.  The show will present the same obstacle to ascertaining the truth of the matter as the books, i.e. the death of Ned, so I think we're still a ways off from that big reveal.

[chris.t.]

If Benjen is Jon's dad, what reason would Eddard have to claim him as his own, hide the fact that Benjen is the father, and create the rift with Cat?  If Benjen is Jon's dad, why doesn't he just tell everyone, "This is Benji's bastard.  I'm going to give him a nice home during his childhood, and when he's old enough he can go join his dad on the Wall?"  Why put Cat through it?  Why put Jon through it?

It makes no sense.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

chris.t., on 26 April 2011 - 09:45 AM, said:

If Benjen is Jon's dad, what reason would Eddard have to claim him as his own, hide the fact that Benjen is the father, and create the rift with Cat?  If Benjen is Jon's dad, why doesn't he just tell everyone, "This is Benji's bastard.  I'm going to give him a nice home during his childhood, and when he's old enough he can go join his dad on the Wall?"  Why put Cat through it?  Why put Jon through it?

It makes no sense.

Right.  I think it makes more sense that Benjen knows the truth of what happened, i.e. that Ned has entrusted him with the secret.

[The Halfhand]

Something else I noticed that was interesting.  When Robb sees Jon before he leaves for the wall, he says (in paraphrase) "Black suits you." and Jon says "It's always been my color" or something to that effect.  Targ nod?

[Zezibesh]

Linda, on 26 April 2011 - 05:42 AM, said:

R+L=J has been fact and not a theory in my mind for a very long time. So far, I'd say the show further confirms that matter, with the key line being Ned's "I promise", delivered oh so emotionally by Sean Bean. I can only see that as a clear echo of "Promise me, Ned".

Loved that scene. Probably favourite part of the episode.

I wonder when we'll get "Promise me, Ned" in the show anyway. Probably when

Spoiler

Ned is in the Black Cells and hallucinating.

[YoDaddy]

chris.t., on 26 April 2011 - 09:45 AM, said:

If Benjen is Jon's dad, what reason would Eddard have to claim him as his own, hide the fact that Benjen is the father, and create the rift with Cat?  If Benjen is Jon's dad, why doesn't he just tell everyone, "This is Benji's bastard.  I'm going to give him a nice home during his childhood, and when he's old enough he can go join his dad on the Wall?"  Why put Cat through it?  Why put Jon through it?

It makes no sense.

I agree with this sentiment exactly. I think this was all just to let non-readers know that Jon's parentage is up for speculation. Now THEY can wait like the rest of us to find out the truth of R+L=J. I've bought into that theory as fact as well, so Martin would be killing me with some other parentage with Jon. (of course his books have been killing me with surprises starting with Bran's fall)