104 replies to this topic

[The Iceman of the North]

The Halfhand, on 26 April 2011 - 10:07 AM, said:

Something else I noticed that was interesting.  When Robb sees Jon before he leaves for the wall, he says (in paraphrase) "Black suits you." and Jon says "It's always been my color" or something to that effect.  Targ nod?

Nah, it's a Stark thing. Starks have black hair, like Jon and unlike the Tullys who most of the Stark children have their colouring from.

[Raidne]

I think it's great that Jon and Dany have a similarity of features that makes them look like they could be related.

I also think the reasoning here is correct - seems like they're trying to make us think that Benjen could be Jon's father to throw us off the trail a bit. Someone must've thought that R+L=J was a little obvious when so many minor details are stripped out of the story.

I don't know how we could possibly get the "promise me, Ned" bit without giving the whole thing away.

[Ser Warpechowski]

Tywin, on 26 April 2011 - 06:13 AM, said:

The shot of Benjen makes it clear. He's Jon's mother.

If I was drinking it would´ve had come out of my nose LOL.

There is also the horrible idea that they may actually change Jon´s father to Benjen. I mean, if the series was to last only 2 seasons they at least could wrap up that story. Then they could pull of the idea that Ned never said anything because Benjen couldnt really have a son.

[Ser Lany Cassandra]

Ser Warpechowski, on 26 April 2011 - 10:50 AM, said:

If I was drinking it would´ve had come out of my nose LOL.

There is also the horrible idea that they may actually change Jon´s father to Benjen. I mean, if the series was to last only 2 seasons they at least could wrap up that story. Then they could pull of the idea that Ned never said anything because Benjen couldnt really have a son.

Jon was fathered before Benjen took the black!

Benjen did not join the Watch until after Ned returned to Winterfell (bringing Jon with him)

It would have been fine for Benjen to acknowledge any bastards.

[Tywin's bastard]

Ser Warpechowski, on 26 April 2011 - 10:50 AM, said:

If I was drinking it would´ve had come out of my nose LOL.

There is also the horrible idea that they may actually change Jon´s father to Benjen. I mean, if the series was to last only 2 seasons they at least could wrap up that story. Then they could pull of the idea that Ned never said anything because Benjen couldnt really have a son.

It's extremely unlikely that they will change anything like that. George tested them on their knowledge when they first met and was pleased that they had guessed who is Jon's mother. Given that background I highly doubt that they will alter that as D&D are big fans of ASOIAF and want to stick close to it while adapting it.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

What throws a wrench into the R+L=J theory in the show is that Ned insists that Jon is a Stark.

If R+L=J is true than Jon is emphatically not a Stark.  He's either a Snow or a Targaryen. But he's not a Stark. Ned knows this, why would he tell Jon a falsehood?

[iheartseverus]

The Scabbard Of the Morning, on 26 April 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

What throws a wrench into the R+L=J theory in the show is that Ned insists that Jon is a Stark.

If R+L=J is true than Jon is emphatically not a Stark.  He's either a Snow or a Targaryen. But he's not a Stark. Ned knows this, why would he tell Jon a falsehood?

Did I miss something?  Where and when does Ned insist that Jon is a Stark?  What Ned actually says to him is 'You may not have my name, but you have my blood.'  I take that to mean Jon is related to Ned by blood, not at all necessarily saying that Jon is his son.  And if R+L=J, then of course Jon IS related to Ned by blood.

[Tywin's bastard]

The Scabbard Of the Morning, on 26 April 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

What throws a wrench into the R+L=J theory in the show is that Ned insists that Jon is a Stark.

If R+L=J is true than Jon is emphatically not a Stark.  He's either a Snow or a Targaryen. But he's not a Stark. Ned knows this, why would he tell Jon a falsehood?

Eddard can't really have meant that he's technically a Stark in name because he points out that he isn't, and he then makes the point that he has Eddard's blood which I take it to mean that that was his point. Otherwise Jon should have reacted much more. I don't see that contradicting R+L=J.

And Jon is not a Targaryen in any situation as R and L weren't married.

Edited by Tywin's bastard, 26 April 2011 - 11:13 AM.

[reiver]

Under what circumstances could he possibly be a Stark using that criteria? I don't think we can divine meaning from that other than it's a nice thing to say, like saying he doesn't see him as a bastard and some how less than the other children.

(would he not be a sand or possibly a waters rather than a snow anyway?)

[iheartseverus]

Tywin, on 26 April 2011 - 11:11 AM, said:

And Jon is not a Targaryen in any situation as R and L weren't married.

Hmmm, even that could be open to interpretation, since the Targs were known to have multiple spouses in the past.  So, if R did marry L, that would make L a second wife, but would also make Jon a legitimate Targ.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

The full quote was as follows:

"There is great honor in serving in the Nightswatch, the Starks have guarded the wall for thousands of years.  And you are a Stark. You may not have my name, but you have my blood."

[iheartseverus]

The Scabbard Of the Morning, on 26 April 2011 - 11:45 AM, said:

The full quote was as follows:

"There is great honor in serving in the Nightswatch, the Starks have guarded the wall for thousands of years.  And you are a Stark. You may not have my name, but you have my blood."

I still can't see how that negates R+L=J in any way.  Lyanna was as much a Stark as Ned is.  So, if Lyanna was Jon's mother, then Jon is as much a Stark as he would be if Ned were his father.  R+L=J still stands firm, IMHO.

[Greywolf2375]

The Scabbard Of the Morning, on 26 April 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

What throws a wrench into the R+L=J theory in the show is that Ned insists that Jon is a Stark.

If R+L=J is true than Jon is emphatically not a Stark.  He's either a Snow or a Targaryen. But he's not a Stark. Ned knows this, why would he tell Jon a falsehood?

Not necessarily - if Lyanna is his mother then he is a Stark by blood; his surname might be different, but "being a Stark" isn't just a name.  Look at the clip they show of Cersei & Joffrey where points out anyone not a Lannister is an enemy.  She is at this point a Baratheon as is he (well, at least by popular opinion), though identifying as a Lannsiter.

Tywin, on 26 April 2011 - 11:11 AM, said:

And Jon is not a Targaryen in any situation as R and L weren't married.

As pointed out, that's not a definitive.  They could have been married in the time they were together.  Nothing that specifically supports it in the books to this point except for the points in Targ family history where they have multiple wives.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

iheartseverus, on 26 April 2011 - 11:47 AM, said:

I still can't see how that negates R+L=J in any way.  Lyanna was as much a Stark as Ned is.  So, if Lyanna was Jon's mother, then Jon is as much a Stark as he would be if Ned were his father.  R+L=J still stands firm, IMHO.

That's not how it works in their world, heritage is passed through the father. Nobody says Robb is a Tully, he's always a Stark, because his father is a Stark.

[Jojen's Ghost]

Zezibesh, on 26 April 2011 - 10:16 AM, said:

I wonder when we'll get "Promise me, Ned" in the show anyway. Probably when

Spoiler

Ned is in the Black Cells and hallucinating.

Will it?  They skipped the dream sequences for Bran.  There was no three-eyed crow.

[Ser Greguh]

Greywolf2375, on 26 April 2011 - 11:54 AM, said:

Nothing that specifically supports it in the books to this point except for the points in Targ family history where they have multiple wives.

And the presence of the kingsguard at the ToJ.  Just saying.

[Ser Lany Cassandra]

Jojen, on 26 April 2011 - 12:20 PM, said:

Will it?  They skipped the dream sequences for Bran.  There was no three-eyed crow.

Assuming R+L=J, when he has the dreams of "promise me" and then thinks of Jon and the promise he made him, this might help explain why he agrees to take the Black himself.  It would add to the show, while the 3 eyed crow dream would not have added to the last episode.

[iheartseverus]

The Scabbard Of the Morning, on 26 April 2011 - 12:11 PM, said:

That's not how it works in their world, heritage is passed through the father. Nobody says Robb is a Tully, he's always a Stark, because his father is a Stark.

I think the issue here might be simply semantics, in other words how we're interpreting the question "Is Jon a Stark?"  Yes, he is, by blood.  No, he is not, by name.  In saying what he said to Jon, Ned is simply acknowledging kinship with Jon, acknowledging that Jon shares Stark blood with him, that's all.

And of course, heritage (the family surname) passes through the males, but the bloodlines pass through both parents.  Would Cat's family, for example, acknowledge that Rob Stark shares their Tully blood, that he is related to them, even though he doesn't share their Tully name?  Of course.

Again, to my mind, none of this negates R+L=J in the least.

[SwordoftheMorning]

Ned made it very clear. "You are a Stark, you have my blood" NOT "you are my son". Ned's clear discomfort in discussing who Jon's mother was with Robert is further proof. "You never described her to me" from Robert and Ned's "nor will I". What more do u people want. Ned promised his sister he would protect the boy. He is a Targaryen, any who say he is not need to recognize exactly what Robert would do if he found out Jon is Rhaegar's son. It's clear as a sunny day.

[Bronn Stone]

Tywin, on 26 April 2011 - 11:11 AM, said:

And Jon is not a Targaryen in any situation as R and L weren't married.

Bet you a nickel you are wrong on this one.