104 replies to this topic

[Derfel Cadarn]

Didn't GRRM's partner Parris debunk R+L=J years ago by saying that GRRM wouldnt be so obvious?

[Xenophon]

The Scabbard Of the Morning, on 26 April 2011 - 12:11 PM, said:

That's not how it works in their world, heritage is passed through the father. Nobody says Robb is a Tully, he's always a Stark, because his father is a Stark.

Yeah, but I don't see why that would stop Ned from thinking that Jon could be an exception to this general rule.  After all, assuming R+L=J, his father was dead before he was born and he was raised by his mother's family.  So, it's not at all the normal situation where the women leaves her family to go live with her husband.  Having heritage pass through the father makes sense in those circumstances, but Jon's life has followed a very different path.

Also, in RL, it was not unheard of for a child to be considered part of his mother's family, despite patrilineal descent being the norm, if the mother was of higher rank (or, say, the father's family had been usurped and largely wiped out).  In fact, aren't the British royal princes currently considered part of the house of Windsor, following their mother/grandmother?

Derfel Cadarn, on 26 April 2011 - 01:20 PM, said:

Didn't GRRM's partner Parris debunk R+L=J years ago by saying that GRRM wouldnt be so obvious?

I can assure you it's not that obvious.  Admittedly I read through the books pretty quickly, but it never once occurred to me.

Edited by Xenophon, 26 April 2011 - 01:35 PM.

[smegma]

Derfel Cadarn, on 26 April 2011 - 01:20 PM, said:

Didn't GRRM's partner Parris debunk R+L=J years ago by saying that GRRM wouldnt be so obvious?

Parris is now GRRM's wife

But yeah, I do remember her saying that, or at least a dozen people saying that she said that. That doesn't mean it's not true, especially because SO MANY people didn't catch it (I did, but I'm the type to *look* for that sorta thing). Not one person that I recommended the books to caught it, and that's a lot of people. They said I was crazy and that's how I found the boards, cause I was looking for validation on my theory

Anyway, could that have been Parris having a bit of fun, or a thousand other explanations? Of course. I can't go based on that one statement to purely debunk it, although it did give me pause. However, after a thousand rereads I just can't fathom it any other way, and other, smarter people on this board feel the same way

[Tywin's bastard]

Bronn Stone, on 26 April 2011 - 01:14 PM, said:

Bet you a nickel you are wrong on this one.

I guess there could be a septon that wed them and is still alive and keeping the secret but it seems like a small chance. My point wasn't really that they couldn't have wed but rather that it needs to be official for Jon to be anything else than a bastard.

[Xanrn]

Yeah because R+L=J is not corny cliche filled crap pie enough without adding marriage.

If Rhaeger planned to marry Lyanna, why the hell did he start a war over it.

If he wanted to marry Lyanna all he has to do is walk up to Lord Rickard Stark and say "I want to marry your daughter".

He didn't he "kidnapped" her.

Why? Because Targayens don't have multiple goddam wives, Aegon the Conquerer did, 300 years ago and was more than likely married to both his sisters before he converted to the Seven. Conversion to the Seven = NO POLYGAMY.

Stop acting like one 300 year old blip is some kind of precedent for Rhaeger having 2 Wives, Aegon was the only King to have two wives and his children fought over the throne and so the Targayens NEVER DID IT AGAIN.

If Rhaeger wanted to marry Lyanna he would have done so, instead he made it look like he kidnapped her and started a War.

Anyway Lyanna couldn't marry with her Guardians(her father then either Aerys or Ned) permission, so any marriage is illegal.

As to why the 3 Kingsguard were at the ToJ, jeez I don't know maybe because they were sent to find Rhaeger and he refused to leave unless they stayed?

A potential 4th in line for the throne doesn't not warrant more Kingsguard than the King, Heir, Heir's Heir, Heir's Wife, Heir's Daughter, King's Wife(pregnant one at that), King's second son (thoose last 2 were on Dragonstone with NO Kingsguard).

Rhaeger was with Lyanna in a Tower in the middle of nowhere, because thats what you do with secret mistresses, not wives.

So in conclusion, Rhaeger didn't act like he thought Marriage was an option (probably because the Red Viper would be at the head of line with an oddily green spear), didn't act like they were married and it wouldn't have been a legal marriage if they had (see Tyrion/Tysha).

Jon is a Stark, just like Rand Al'thor is an Al'thor.

Jon has proven time and time again he is a Stark through and through for four books and continues do so in aDwD.

If you want to argue semantics, D&D guessed Jon's "mother" correctly, not his "parentage", so therefore either N+L=J or N+A=J or N+W=J is the true answer.

My personnel theory is Jon is Ashara's son, it goes something like this.

War Starts > Ashara rides North to meet Ned 2/3 months into the war somewhere in the Riverlands, tells Ned where R+L are, one night of passion with Ned > rides South again, stays with Elia a few months before leaving due to pregnancy rides to Starfall > 9 months later Ned attacks the ToJ, rides to Starfall with R+L baby(maybe) > Ashara says suprise, then they hatch a plan. Swap babies. Ashara takes the Blackfire Child and goes to Braavos to become one of thoose high class whores (the Veiled Lady), Ned takes the Snow North, being vague about Jon parentage to draw any fire North towards him instead of at Ashara.

There is something going on between House Stark and House Dayne, House Dayne supports Ned's Wyalla story, obiviously know the truth about ToJ and apparantly haven't told Prince Doran(or anyone) and Lord Dayne liked Ned so much he named his son and heir after him. Bit of an odd thing to do after Ned killed Arthur and Ashara killed herself.

As for Jon's parentage in the TV series.

Something might have changed, Season 5 or more before viewers get the answer, seems suspect when given how cancel happy America TV is.

If you look at the Walking Dead TV series and Comic series, most of the big Comic shocks are missing from the TV.

[iheartseverus]

Tywin, on 26 April 2011 - 02:16 PM, said:

I guess there could be a septon that wed them and is still alive and keeping the secret but it seems like a small chance. My point wasn't really that they couldn't have wed but rather that it needs to be official for Jon to be anything else than a bastard.

I believe there's a sound reason why the author mentions (sort of casually, in passing...) that the Targs have been known to have multiple wives.  That reason is certainly not to explain any current Targ multiple-marriage arrangement, since there aren't any.  SO, why was it mentioned at all?  To legitimize Jon, I believe.

[Lyanna's_Blue_Rose]

Tywin, on 26 April 2011 - 02:16 PM, said:

I guess there could be a septon that wed them and is still alive and keeping the secret but it seems like a small chance. My point wasn't really that they couldn't have wed but rather that it needs to be official for Jon to be anything else than a bastard.

True.

However, assuming R+L=J, the issue of R+L being married or not (and hence Jon being legitimate or a bastard) is only relevant with regard to a potential claim to the throne.  I think Robert would want to kill him simply because he is R's son, whether legitimate or bastard.

[Volderon]

Then what's "Promise me Ned" all about then?

And of course Jon has demonstrated he's a Stark. HE GREW UP WITH THEM.

If there's one thing we learn in the books about Ned. It's that he's honourable. Why would he cheat on his wife with Ashara? He didn't sleep around with whores when he was younger and never fathered any bastards. What lie could Ned keep for 14 yeas that troubles him so much?

[Maia]

Xanrn, on 26 April 2011 - 02:22 PM, said:

If Rhaeger planned to marry Lyanna, why the hell did he start a war over it.

He didn't. Combination of Brandon's foolhardiness and Aerys's madness did. If even one of these 2 people had been a bit more sensible, the war would have never happened.

Quote

If he wanted to marry Lyanna all he has to do is walk up to Lord Rickard Stark and say "I want to marry your daughter".

And then Rickard would have said "no" and tried to forcibly marry her to Robert ASAP.  And Aerys would have tried to stop it too. After all, "the dragons don't mate with beasts from the fields". Elia was only somewhat acceptable because of her own small amount of Targaryen blood and because the expedition that should have found Rhaegar a proper Valyrian bride in the Free Cities was unsuccessful.

Quote

Aegon the Conquerer did, 300 years ago and was more than likely married to both his sisters before he converted to the Seven. .

Targaryens have been followers of the Seven since they escaped the Doom of Valyria, a century or more before the Conquest. The statues of the Seven in the sept of Dragonstone was made out of the wood of the ships on which they escaped to Westeros and Aegon prayed to them on the eve before he sailed to invade Westeros.

Quote

Aegon was the only King to have two wives and his children fought over the throne and so the Targayens NEVER DID IT AGAIN..

Not true, Aegon's children didn't fight at all. Also his son Maegor had multiple wives too, but  he never had any issue.

Quote

Anyway Lyanna couldn't marry with her Guardians(her father then either Aerys or Ned) permission, so any marriage is illegal.

Lyanna was of age, she didn't need guardians or permission to marry.

The thing is, if Ashara was the mother, then Ned has been a scumbag to Ashara, Cat and to Jon. Because bringing Jon out of Dorne, where bastards are treated better, and raising him in such a way that he sees the NW as his only option didn't do him any favors in the long run.  I prefer to think that Ned was not a scumbag.

P.S: I wonder if they aren't going to go full tilt in the show and have a baby crying in the background during the "promise me" dream. After all, very subtle hints won't work so well in a multi-season TV-show...

Edited by Maia, 26 April 2011 - 04:19 PM.

[MattTaz]

Ok look at it from a TV series point of view:

Jon, Benjen was your father.
What? Why didnt he tell me?
Not sure.
Oh

Jon, Wyla was your mother
Who is she?
A Wetnurse from Dorne
Oh

Jon, Lady Ashara was your mother.
Isnt she dead?
Yes, threw herself of a Tower
Oh.

Jon, Lyanna was your mother.
What? Why didn't Lord Eddard tell me?
Because Robert Baratheon wanted all those of Targ blood killed.
Targ blood! What do you mean?
Well Prince Rhaegar is your father, which means Danaerys is your Aunt.
What you mean the Targaryen Queen who has come to claim back Westeros and has Dragons which
could help us fight the Others?
Yes and apparantly she cant have any children which makes you REALLY valauable Jon.

Hmmm i'm no scriptwriter of course, but geez this is a no-brainer for me.  

[shadow of death]

Ser Helman Tallhart, on 26 April 2011 - 10:01 AM, said:

Right.  I think it makes more sense that Benjen knows the truth of what happened, i.e. that Ned has entrusted him with the secret.

I had never thought of that.  Seems pretty plausible to me.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

shadow of death, on 26 April 2011 - 04:29 PM, said:

I had never thought of that.  Seems pretty plausible to me.

Maybe he'll eventually be involved in Jon finding out his parentage (either as himself or as Coldhands).  Think about it - how many other people who are not confirmed dead know anything about the subject, assuming it's R+L=J?  Howland Reed and...?

[Bronn Stone]

Howland Reed will be the source for the eventual Jon revelation.  GRRM has hinted at that many times (this is why we'll never have a Howland POV and why GRRM has kept him off screen so far).

Maia, on 26 April 2011 - 03:28 PM, said:

<trimmed>

Maia 1, Xanrn 0

Edited by Bronn Stone, 26 April 2011 - 04:50 PM.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Bronn Stone, on 26 April 2011 - 04:40 PM, said:

Howland Reed will be the source for the eventual Jon revelation.  GRRM has hinted at that many times (this is why we'll never have a Howland POV and why GRRM has kept him off screen so far).

Makes sense.

[Xenophon]

Bronn Stone, on 26 April 2011 - 04:40 PM, said:

Howland Reed will be the source for the eventual Jon revelation.  GRRM has hinted at that many times (this is why we'll never have a Howland POV and why GRRM has kept him off screen so far).

I could see changing that for TV.  It might make sense to use Benjen, a character we meet in the first episode, instead and cut Reed out altogether (assuming it's at all possible with whatever GRRM writes).

[flyingwind66]

Maia, on 26 April 2011 - 03:28 PM, said:

Lyanna was of age, she didn't need guardians or permission to marry.

ah hahahaHAHAHA!!!! "not need guardians or permission to marry"? because she was "of age"? even in Dorne with Ariane, who is over 20, still has her father making marriage arrangements for her (she was allowed to say 'no' though).  There's no such thing as 'not needing permission to marry' for women of the noble houses.

Maia, on 26 April 2011 - 03:28 PM, said:

P.S: I wonder if they aren't going to go full tilt in the show and have a baby crying in the background during the "promise me" dream. After all, very subtle hints won't work so well in a multi-season TV-show...

agreed... you can't be subtle with multi-season tv-series though this would be a spoiler for the rest of us I think >.> unless, of course, aDwD tells us his parentage which I sorely hope for >.<

[BlackStoneCA]

This is from the completely unspoiled speculation tread on Television Without Pity.  

http://forums.televi...post&p=13873751

If the guy is new to the show, very perceptive.   The cynic in me thinks that he is a long time fan however.

[Kilroy]

A lot of what is said can be taken many ways.

When did Benjen take the black?
How did Ned come home with a baby if it was Benjen's?
Cat seems to be pretty certain it's Ned's bastard.
Ned says the name of his "fling" while away.

I like how this mystery is brought up again for the TV show. Being a old hand at this mystery I already have my conclusions.

[smegma]

BlackStoneCA, on 26 April 2011 - 05:04 PM, said:

This is from the completely unspoiled speculation tread on Television Without Pity.  

http://forums.televi...post&p=13873751

If the guy is new to the show, very perceptive.   The cynic in me thinks that he is a long time fan however.

Very interesting, but yeah - one has to wonder about his newbishness - maybe I can grant that he didn't read the books, but instead may have looked online at some spoilers. Otherwise, count me impressed.

[Geriant]

I'm mostly convinced that the R+L=J theory is correct, but I can see some alternatives to the accepted version of the ToJ sequence that can throw a monkey wrench into the theory, and that can support N+A=J as well (or even Arthur Dayne+L=J perhaps)

First, Lyanna might not be there willingly (after all, in the dream sequence Ned hears her screaming his name as the fight begins.. if she was there willingly it stands to reason she might have tried to intervene in the fight before it happened). It is entirely possible Rhaegar has the Kingsguard there to keep Lyanna from escaping/being rescued because he believes he needs her child for his prophecy to be fulfilled. And we do have at least a couple of characters talking about Lyanna being raped by Rhaegar after all. Remember, while the Kingsguard do guard the King and the heirs, they are also under the command of the King and his heirs. We also have the precedent of heirs not being guarded by the Kingsguard, ie Joffrey's bodyguard is the Hound, who does not become a Kingsguard until after he becomes king. Entirely possible either Rhaegar or Aerys ordered the three to keep Lyanna prisoner there for a number of reasons.

While most characters seem to view Rhaegar favorably, we also know that he will change at the drop of a hat if he is under the belief he needs to do something to fulfill a prophecy/destiny as he was bookish until he read something that made him decide he must become a warrior. What's to say he didn't hold Lyanna against her will after she refused him due to her betrothal to Robert? After all, first and foremost she is a Stark.. and the Starks always seem to do their duty when push comes to shove, not just Ned. Rhaegar likely would not have accepted that as an option if he saw her as the woman who would bear the third head of the dragon, thus kidnapping her (which also seems to be the accepted version of events by most in the books).

And further, Ned's trip to Starfall after the battle might have been to heal and recover as well as to deliver Dawn. While nothing Ned dreams/remembers speaks to him being injured in the fight, considering that everyone but him and Howland Reed died it also stands to reason that he and the crannogman did not come through unscathed (as I said in another post, Sean Bean's Ned has scars on his chest.. and I wonder if they are from the battle at the ToJ). If he went to Starfall to also recover from his wounds, he might have been there the requisite time to have a fling with Ashara Dayne. It could also explain why he only slipped the one time with his vows and feels such shame over it, he clearly had a thing for Ashara Dayne but also clearly loves Catelyn. Entirely possible while being weakened from wounds and grief over his sister (after all, he now had no family other than Benjen), he found comfort in Ashara's arms - perhaps even while somewhat delirious from milk of the poppy. Once he came to his senses, Ashara was pregant. After the child was born, he tells her he cannot be with her as he is married to Catelyn. I can even see Ned trying to do the right thing by her in taking the child -even being somewhat insistant in that Ned way, but Ashara being heartbroken at losing Ned (and perhaps her child) throws herself into the sea.

Or... Lyanna is being held hostage/prisoner in the Tower of Joy by Rhaegar while he tries to get her with child, but then he rides off to war leaving the three Kingsguard behind to keep the woman he thinks he needs to bear the third head of the dragon there for him to return to and Lyanna and Arthur Dayne fall for each other. We know Dayne was a fine example of knighthood, and while he was Rhaegar's best friend it is possible (like Ned does about Robert) he finds his best friend's behaviour to be less than honorable upon occasion and feels sympathy for Lyanna (who is also spoken of as one of the great beauties of her day), eventually falling in love and getting her preggers. After the fight and giving birth to Jon, Lyanna is dying.. she has Ned promise to take the child and Dawn back to Starfall, while also making sure he takes her home. Like Lady, she is of the north and belongs there.

Little far fetched perhaps, especially the second scenario, but I think quite plausible.