104 replies to this topic

[Aoife]

Look in your hearts, you know it to be true: Ned had secretly married Ashara before Brandon died and Cat's betrothal moved to him. When they met up during the Rebellion, Ned told Ashara it had to end, and the secret marriage would have to be never mentioned again, as the lesser dishonor. They had one last fling, Jon was conceived, Ashara bore him and later killed herself/left/what-have-you. Ned comes to find Wylla nursing him, and brings him to Winterfell with him. Jon was born within the earlier bonds of matrimony, making him a legitimate Stark, Robb's the bastard due to bigamy (did that even exist for everyone other than the Targaryens?) but it's moot now, and then N+A was dissolved/ended by the time Sansa was born.

*cough* What inconsistencies? I don't understand what you could possibly mean....

[Aganerral]

I'm in the R+L=J camp myself, but won't flip out if it's not that - though if not, it better be Ned + Ashara and not a random commoner named Wylla   I just think there are too many hints in that direction.

One thing this thread brought up that I hadn't considered is that Benjen might know.  I had been thinking about who still alive (as of aFFC) might know:

Howland Reed for sure
Wylla would at least know for sure if Jon really is her daughter, Ashara's daughter, or someone else.  In the latter case she might not know the full story, but could at least confirm her/Ashara's status
Jojen and Mara Reed MIGHT know...they seem sharp enough not to say anything when they shouldn't (especially Jojen) and Howland might have told them to make sure the knowledge doesn't die out.

And that was all I could come up with.  But it would make sense that Ned might have told Benjen about their sister and the Tower of Joy.  This would also explain some of the TV cuts to Benjen as implying that Benjen could talk about it/is involved in some way.  Of course, Benjen is also MIA unless he's Coldhands, which is an entirely separate theory

[Aoife]

If Jon is anybody's daughter, I think a lot of people are going to be surprised. Including Jon.

[navahgar]

Strong response.  Sorry I've been absent for most of the interesting discussion.  To be clear, I don't think that Benjen is Jon's father.  I just thought that that's a suggestion that the director was making.  Along with thousands of others I think R + L = J.  I like the idea that Benjen might be one of the few to know of Jon's heritage.

Having said that, let me engage in some idle speculation.  Taking into consideration the hints (at least I saw them as hints) that Benjen is Jon's father, what could the whole "Promise me, Ned" business be about.  I don't have the books handy, so hopefully none of this is directly contradicted, but what if Lyanna isn't dead?  Maybe Ned comes to the Tower of Joy, find Lyanna having given birth, Lyanna makes him promise to hide her and the child from Robert.  Ned takes Lyanna and the baby to Starfall where they get on a boat to somewhere in the Free Cities.  Meanwhile in Starfall Ned meets Ashara again, who tells him she still loves him.  He tells her he's just killed her bro and is married.  She offs herself.  He travels back to Winterfell.  Where did he get the baby?  Maybe Ben met him on the way to confess and deliver?  Maybe Ashara gave it to him and told him it was Ben's (a stretch)?

[Godlikebuthumble]

Derfel Cadarn, on 26 April 2011 - 03:17 AM, said:

Won't be a mystery for much longer, as Ned will tell Jon all about it when he returns from the south.

This one also kinda makes me wonder. How long does Ned plan on staying in the south? 'Cause to hear him say it, you'd think he's gonna be back in a couple months, tops.

[Xenophon]

Godlikebuthumble, on 27 April 2011 - 05:55 PM, said:

This one also kinda makes me wonder. How long does Ned plan on staying in the south? 'Cause to hear him say it, you'd think he's gonna be back in a couple months, tops.

I think it's more that in this world it's perfectly normal to not see someone for years.  I agree it was a little weird, though.  Didn't he consider that he might get sick and die, or war might break out.

[The Anti-Targ]

Well there would be a reason to keep things quiet if it was B+L=J. Hey, it's a recurring theme in this series.

[The Anti-Targ]

Aoife Trevgaryen, on 27 April 2011 - 05:01 PM, said:

If Jon is anybody's daughter, I think a lot of people are going to be surprised. Including Jon.

Are you suggesting Jon sprung fully formed out of someone's knob?

[navahgar]

The Anti-Targ, on 27 April 2011 - 06:32 PM, said:

Are you suggesting Jon sprung fully formed out of someone's knob?

I think he was suggesting that Jon's not a girl.

[The Anti-Targ]

navahgar, on 27 April 2011 - 07:26 PM, said:

I think he was suggesting that Jon's not a girl.

With hair like that it's hard to tell.

[JetboyGirl]

The Anti-Targ, on 27 April 2011 - 11:34 PM, said:

With hair like that it's hard to tell.

I think your Titan avatar isn't one to talk!

[fionwe1987]

I don't see what the worry is with R+L=J. GRRM won't even be the first to play with this cliche. Jordan did it. Rand al'Thor was the Queen's son, but it makes no difference to him or his story.

It should be the same with Jon. As LCC of the Night's Watch, he's already at the forefront of the war against the Others. One way or another, he's going to be playing a major role in the story. So what if he's also the Prince's son? He's already believed to be the son of a very great Noble and has already renounced titles and lands in favor of staying and fighting.

I don't even think he'll necessarily be able to warg with Dragons. The whole Ice and Fire motif points to the Direwolves being as important as the Dragons. I think his identity as a Targaryen will have other uses.

[Tywin's bastard]

fionwe1987:
Just because the topic has "book spoilers" in it doesn't mean that you can spoil any book ever written. There are probably lots of people here that haven't read Jordan's works and some of them might want to do it in the future.

[Axon]

MattTaz, on 26 April 2011 - 04:04 AM, said:

Have to say how touched I was by Sean Bean's acting when he makes the promise to tell Jon who is mother was. That was brilliant

Sean Bean is the man.  His expression in that scene, the quivering lip as he says we'll talk about your mother...perfection.  It's sad how little Ned Stark this series has. I hope GRRM brings him back in a flashback scene or something.  All these eps have made me miss the various characters that meet their fates.

Edited by Axon, 28 April 2011 - 08:20 AM.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Axon, on 28 April 2011 - 08:20 AM, said:

Sean Bean is the man.  His expression in that scene, the quivering lip as he says we'll talk about your mother...perfection.  It's sad how little Ned Stark this series has. I hope GRRM brings him back in a flashback scene or something.

Indeed, he is a master of the convincingly emotive facial expression.  I also took note of the look on his face (and the subtle, furious quaver to his voice) when he confronted Robert about not bringing Arya straight to him.  Brilliant, believable acting.

Edited by Ser Helman Tallhart, 28 April 2011 - 08:32 AM.

[Regina]

I agree that R+L=J is the most likely answer.  BUT, I'm torn and don't really want that to be the answer.  

My problem is, everyone but Robert seemed to have liked and respected Rhaegar.  And everyone but Cersei seems to have liked Lyanna.  So I want to like these characters, not have to dislike them for starting a war by running off together (either for love or to fill some prophecy).

In my very crackpot version, Aerys has Lyanna abducted (most likely to punish her, if he discovered she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree) and rapes her.  Then Rheagar wisks her away to the Tower of Joy to protect her and her unborn child.  Jon would still a Prince, and a product of Ice and Fire.  But, in my version, R and L aren't responsible for everything that follows, Aeys is.

(This really has nothing to do with the show version, as we've seen so little background...just wanted to get that out there as I haven't tossed around any crackpot theories for so long.)

[Aoife]

navahgar, on 27 April 2011 - 07:26 PM, said:

I think he was suggesting that Jon's not a girl.

We have a winner. (Though 'she' is my preferred pronoun.)

[TerraPrime]

Aoife Trevgaryen, on 28 April 2011 - 11:14 AM, said:

(Though 'she' is my preferred pronoun.)

I'd need to see your longform birth certificate and your college transcript before I will believe *that*.

Edited by TerraPrime, 28 April 2011 - 11:20 AM.

[Aoife]

How dare you question my self-identification! Next you'll be telling me I have to prove this is my real hair, too!

[Trebla]

Derfel Cadarn, on 26 April 2011 - 01:20 PM, said:

Didn't GRRM's partner Parris debunk R+L=J years ago by saying that GRRM wouldnt be so obvious?

She said that to Lodengarl, Padraig, and I @ the San Jose Worldcon in 2002. I personally think we were given a Red Herring. And despite 3rd hand reports, we did NOT ask the question. It was just provided. Speaking for myself, I still believe in R+L=J. Too many subtle things point to it.

I've had the 1st Davos chapter from ADwD for awhile now since I won it from GRRM in a football bet and
HUGE SPOILER GO AWAY UNLESS YOU WANTED TO BE SPOILERED:

Spoiler

GRRM offers ANOTHER candidate for Jon's mother as a fishergirl in the Vale. At the start of the rebellion, Ned was stuck in a village trying to avoid capture while trying to sail North to call his banners. Davos is told that Ned Starks bastard's mother was from the Vale. Seems to me that GRRM is offering false trails.