74 replies to this topic

[Kaitscralt]

Woodbyrne, on 02 May 2011 - 02:54 PM, said:

Last night's show would have me at a loss if I did not read the books.

But you have read the books and the depth of them is subconsciously effecting the way you imagine you'd picture the show if you'd not read them.

Right now all sources are basically saying that people who have not read the series are not confused by the plot or main characters. They have some questions, but that is normal early on in a show.

[Tywin's bastard]

Kaitscralt, on 02 May 2011 - 03:23 PM, said:

But you have read the books and the depth of them is subconsciously effecting the way you imagine you'd picture the show if you'd not read them.

Right now all sources are basically saying that people who have not read the series are not confused by the plot or main characters. They have some questions, but that is normal early on in a show.

Yes, the non-readers I've heard talk about the third episode have said that this was the best so far and they don't seem to have any trouble following the plot.

I definitely agree that readers tend to be the ones saying that the show must be hard to grasp and I think you are right in that a lot of that comes from confusing the depths of the book and what the show is trying to tell.

Edited by Tywin's bastard, 02 May 2011 - 03:48 PM.

[Xenophon]

Tywin, on 02 May 2011 - 03:47 PM, said:

Yes, the non-readers I've heard talk about the third episode have said that this was the best so far and they don't seem to have any trouble following the plot.

I definitely agree that readers tend to be the ones saying that the show must be hard to grasp and I think you are right in that a lot of that comes from confusing the depths of the book and what the show is trying to tell.

Exactly.  My wife hasn't read the books and she occasionally asks me for clarification, but most of the time is fine with what's shown.  The Kingsguard is a good example; people are freaking out here that it hasn't been well-explained.  And it's true that my wife had no idea that Jaime had been the Mad King's sworn bodyguard(as opposed to a regular knight) when he killed him.  But viewers don't need to know that right now.  It's already clear enough that he did something dishonorable by killing the King, the details can come out more slowly.

[McCracken]

Surprised no one has mentioned the Hands necklace being changed.

IMO the necklace decribed in the books looks way cooler than the thingy they changed it to and more importantly if we get to the end of the third book they are going tpo have to change the Tyrion's murder scence

[Maltaran]

Is it ever mentioned in the books that Barristan killed Simon Toyne? I remember that Arthur Dayne killed the Smiling Knight, but not much else of the Kingswood Brotherhood.

[Rattle Pants]

My wife (a non-reader) absolutely loved this episode. Arya is her new favorite now, and who can blame her? Not one, but two awesome Arya scenes; her murdering the table and the dancing lesson. She now can't wait for the next episode, and is begging me for spoilers. But as a reader, I have somewhat mixed feelings. On the whole the episode left a very positive impact on me. I love how they are showing us the Lannister POV early on (instead of waiting for ASOS). I've always had trouble with Lannisters being portrayed as Evil Monsters. Sure, they're still evil, and Joffrey is still a royal prick, but they're more human now and thus more believable. Another non-reader commented to me (an episode ago) that he's having trouble with what he saw as the portrayal of the Lannisters as evil for evil's sake, which I found enlightening since they are definitely more so in the books. I'm hoping this episode might change his mind a bit. Now for what really bugged me: where the hell is Ghost?! I have no trouble with axing Donal Noye or Mormont's crow (for now). But Ghost is integral not only to the story but to Jon's character. Makes me begin to wonder how big a part the dire wolves are playing in future episodes. Because I'm pretty sure that if Ghost pops up in the future, my wife is going to say: "Who is that? When did Jon get a white dog?"

[Tywin's bastard]

Rattle Pants, on 02 May 2011 - 04:03 PM, said:

My wife (a non-reader) absolutely loved this episode. Arya is her new favorite now, and who can blame her? Not one, but two awesome Arya scenes; her murdering the table and the dancing lesson. She now can't wait for the next episode, and is begging me for spoilers. But as a reader, I have somewhat mixed feelings. On the whole the episode left a very positive impact on me. I love how they are showing us the Lannister POV early on (instead of waiting for ASOS). I've always had trouble with Lannisters being portrayed as Evil Monsters. Sure, they're still evil, and Joffrey is still a royal prick, but they're more human now and thus more believable. Another non-reader commented to me (an episode ago) that he's having trouble with what he saw as the portrayal of the Lannisters as evil for evil's sake, which I found enlightening since they are definitely more so in the books. I'm hoping this episode might change his mind a bit. Now for what really bugged me: where the hell is Ghost?! I have no trouble with axing Donal Noye or Mormont's crow (for now). But Ghost is integral not only to the story but to Jon's character. Makes me begin to wonder how big a part the dire wolves are playing in future episodes. Because I'm pretty sure that if Ghost pops up in the future, my wife is going to say: "Who is that? When did Jon get a white dog?"

The direwolves are featured less because they didn't have much time training the dogs and that breed isn't great for training either. I read that the scene where Ned executes Lady took three hours to film.

As for the Lannisters, I think this episode should change some things. We see a lot of hints of that Jaime breaking his oath wasn't necessarily evil, Cersei isn't particularly nice but her advice about how everyone else are enemies is pretty much mirrored by Ned telling Arya that the Starks must keep together, and Tyrion has been put under suspicion for perhaps not being nearly as nice as he's been shown.

[Hyper]

Tywin, on 02 May 2011 - 12:24 PM, said:

You found the one with "the Hand takes the shit" poetic!? It sure is the first I've heard someone say that.

LOL, I agree with that. I think the new line works better.

To complain about this seems to be a case of "The source material is perfect"-isis. It isn't, and sometimes changes make good sense, especially when adapted to a different medium.

Personally the only added scene that bothered me was the "Robert & Ser Barristan" one. Too static and speechifying to work well, IMO.

[Huan]

Dark Knight, on 02 May 2011 - 03:17 PM, said:

23. Removed: Jon offering his help to Grenn and embarassing Thorne

Though we see Jon in the yard helping Grenn and Pyp, we don't see the transformation he goes through in the books heading into the feast hall to offer his help, and making fun of Ser Allister.

Really missed this one, as there is absolutely no tension building between Jon an Thorne which is present in the books and leads to some rather significant events. Actually no much of Thorne at all really...

I agree, this was a big omission since it sets the stage for events later on as Thorne gets his petty revenge on Jon and also shows how Jon become friends with his cohorts. Otherwise I thought the scenes at the Wall were well done.

Loved, loved, love the Arya-Syrio scene...!

Ned is really more hot-headed in the show than in the book - certainly no Stark ice running in his veins on-screen.

[Jon Blackfyre]

Huan, on 02 May 2011 - 05:30 PM, said:

I agree, this was a big omission since it sets the stage for events later on as Thorne gets his petty revenge on Jon and also shows how Jon become friends with his cohorts. Otherwise I thought the scenes at the Wall were well done.

We haven't seen Sam yet either, I think they are just condensing the Jon teaching/making fun of Thorne/ defending Sam all into episode 4.  We saw a brief glimpse of Jon helping Pyp and Grenn, next episode will have more.

While Ghost has been shown twice in the series so far, I still don't think that is enough.  He is Jon's shadow, if you can't have him in the background, or at least once shown following him you aren't trying hard enough HBO.  I just don't get why they didn't have Ghost follow Jon to the cage and have him say, "No, stay here Ghost"   There, simple, easy, we know his name now, he is a part of the show.

[Mad Sweeney]

I thought it was the best episode yet, filmmaking-wise.  The first 2 were just sloppy from a technical standpoint, I hope that director (Van Patten) doesn't have many more episodes but since he got the first two, he's probably going to have more.

I honestly can't believe that no one's mentioned the manner of Aerys' death.  Unless it was said in a previous episode and I completely missed it.  Jaime stabbing Aerys in the back while he's muttering "Burn them all!" is painting a somewhat more selfless Jaime that just isn't present in the first book and will take some backsteps later on in this season whenhe ambushes Ned's group.  

I too am disappointed about the wolves but sometimes when you work with animals, you just don't get what you want.  A lot of times you just keep rolling and rolling the camera and hope that the critter stays near the mark and with all the footage you shot, you hope there's something that can be edited around to be somewhat functional.  It's a lot like working with Nic Cage.

[Jon Blackfyre]

Mad Sweeney, on 02 May 2011 - 08:37 PM, said:

  It's a lot like working with Nic Cage.

HAHAHAHA!!!  That's great.  Although I do think that Ghost could have followed Jon for 15 feet better than Nic cage could have.

As to the manner of Aerys death, I too am confused why they say Jamie "stabbed him in the back" and not "opened his throat."  It really doesn't matter, he killed him still, and the reason came out a little sooner, and people still despise him for it.  It still doesn't make a lot of sense to change something like that for no reason.

The King eats and the Hand takes the shit.

The King shits and the Hand whips.

Still don't get the point in changing that either...  Don't get me wrong, I am not upset with the show, I am really enjoying it.  I've just been confused on dialog changes that don't serve a purpose.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Anybody mention that they changed the Chain of the Hand to a brooch?

What is Tyrion going to strangle Shae with now?

[Manakhkubar]

The Scabbard Of the Morning, on 02 May 2011 - 09:18 PM, said:

Anybody mention that they changed the Chain of the Hand to a brooch?

What is Tyrion going to strangle Shae with now?

He can easily stab her with that. That would work much better on screen, because a slow, dramatic stangeling might take away huge amount of sympathy for Tyrion. Mind you, Martin isn't there to cover up Tyrion with some internal monologue bull....

[Bronn Stone]

Maltaran, on 02 May 2011 - 04:03 PM, said:

Is it ever mentioned in the books that Barristan killed Simon Toyne? I remember that Arthur Dayne killed the Smiling Knight, but not much else of the Kingswood Brotherhood.

From the entry in the White Book for Ser Barristan - ASOS - emphasis mine

Quote

Ser Barristan of House Selmy. Firstborn son of Ser Lyonel Selmy of Harvest Hall. Served as squire to Ser Manfred Swann. Named “the Bold” in his 10th year, when he donned borrowed armor to appear as a mystery knight in the tourney at Blackhaven, where he was defeated and unmasked by Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies.... Rescued Lady Feyne Swann and her septa from the Kingswood Brotherhood, defeating Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight, and slaying the former. ... Wounded by arrow, spear, and sword at the Battle of the Trident whilst fighting beside his Sworn Brothers and Rhaegar Prince of Dragonstone. Pardoned, and named Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, by King Robert I Baratheon. Served in the honor guard that brought Lady Cersei of House Lannister to King’s Landing to wed King Robert. Led the attack on Old Wyk during Balon Greyjoy’s Rebellion. Champion of the tourney at King’s Landing, in his 57th year. Dismissed from service by King Joffrey I Baratheon in his 61st year, for reasons of advanced age.

Edited by Bronn Stone, 03 May 2011 - 02:28 AM.

[Tywin's bastard]

Manakhkubar, on 03 May 2011 - 12:18 AM, said:

He can easily stab her with that. That would work much better on screen, because a slow, dramatic stangeling might take away huge amount of sympathy for Tyrion. Mind you, Martin isn't there to cover up Tyrion with some internal monologue bull....

As for strangling he could just do it with his hands as you don't need to reach very far around it to put pressure on the proper area.

Still I wouldn't mind another manner of death because I don't think I've ever seen a strangling on TV/film that was believable. Generally they strangle someone until they pass out but it takes several minutes to die from lack of oxygen after you're passed out. Of course the scene isn't as dramatic if someone is choking an unconscious body for 5 minutes but it makes people believe things that aren't true.

[danro]

Tywin, on 03 May 2011 - 04:51 AM, said:

Of course the scene isn't as dramatic if someone is choking an unconscious body for 5 minutes but it makes people believe things that aren't true.

Something that has probably saved quite a few lives IRL...

[Tywin's bastard]

danro, on 03 May 2011 - 05:06 AM, said:

Something that has probably saved quite a few lives IRL...

That's of course a positive thing if so, but it's hardly a consciously taught lesson given how realistic they make other forms of killing.

[SleepyNonah]

Have to say the only change that bothered me was Ghost's absence. Had to explain Littefinger's relationship with Cat to the other half who's watching before she reads the books but she followed the rest of it okay.

[Lannister Fan]

I dunno why but I found this episode sort of dull! Don't get me wrong, I liked it and it's helping build momentum, but so many key scenes removed...felt bit half-baked in a sense. Dany's transition from demure, frightened child into a woman acting like a Khaleesi felt waaaaay too fast for example. Jon Snow's direwolf nowhere to be found, he's such an important part of his character! Even though I understand training those dogs is alot of work surely adding even just one scene with Ghost following Jon is important? So we at least know Ghost is there. You know, this is why sometimes I wish I hadn't read the books. At least the excellent scenes with Tyrion makes up for it.

Edited by Lannister Fan, 03 May 2011 - 05:37 AM.