408 replies to this topic

[two_by_two]

thistlepong, on 09 June 2011 - 12:27 PM, said:

The task would be much easier the way they appear to be attacking it at present: catalog, redact, recopy, reshelve.  A jumbled mess leaves originals, illuminated maniscripts, and dangerous truths for, how did you put it, "every freaking E'lir" to find lying about.  Multiple cataloging systems, high turnover, and shelving wars do not suggest a unified purpose.  These things suggest at least confusion, at most a struggle for control.

Moreover, the theory suggests the entire University is an Amyr institution.  These were the poepl responsible for carrying out Tehlin justice and the Iron Law of Atur.  The same people who razed Caluptena, the previous site of enlightened learning, who burned Arcanists, folks with knacks, gingers...  It doesn't fit well.

Assuming Kvothe gets in, it's also kind of anticlimactic.  Kvothe gets in and finds shelves full of books.  The alarms go off and he's boned.

There's a good case for Lorren having ulterior motives, but not fot the entire University - even the entire Arcanum.  Yet, anyway.

Forgive my ignorance. I don't recall the Amyr being the ones who burned Caluptena. Did I miss that?

Also, regarding the Amyr being the ones who carried out the Iron Law; that only applied to malfeasance, which the University would want to discourage anyway. Also, if we look at the Amyr as two seperate institutions, Selitos & Pals (aka the supernatural Amyr) and the human judges (a cover, perhaps, for S & Pals), that starts to make more sense. The human judges could serve as a method for "legitimizing" S & Pals' activities, allowing them to more directly influence the course of human affairs. Kvothe brings something like this idea up in WMF. I don't have the exact quote, but he said something along the lines of "What if there were a hidden faction inside the Amyr (that Gibea was a part of)?"

[Gaston de Foix]

The church burned Caluptena (WMF: Ch.39). If the Amyr were affiliated with the Church, given their purpose is to act for the greater good, it's fair to say they would either have controlled the Church or at the least prevented it from destroying an entire city.

[unJon]

thistlepong, on 09 June 2011 - 12:27 PM, said:

The task would be much easier the way they appear to be attacking it at present: catalog, redact, recopy, reshelve.  A jumbled mess leaves originals, illuminated maniscripts, and dangerous truths for, how did you put it, "every freaking E'lir" to find lying about.

Which is why I wouldn't be surprised if Kvothe does actually find something on-point in Doors of Stone.

[two_by_two]

Gaston de Foix, on 09 June 2011 - 12:54 PM, said:

The church burned Caluptena (WMF: Ch.39). If the Amyr were affiliated with the Church, given their purpose is to act for the greater good, it's fair to say they would either have controlled the Church or at the least prevented it from destroying an entire city.

Thanks for the clarification, Gaston. Apparently I had actually missed that.

I don't really believe in the "the Amyr are actually the bad guys theory", as there seems vastly more evidence stacked against it than for it, but that does seem rather damning.

[Galactus]

I don't think the Amyr are "the" bad guys, but rather a faction opposed to the bad guys that nonetheless isn't "good".

Their entire "Anything for the Greater Good, and screw how many Gue'la die to get it". thing doesen't exactly sound heroic.

[thistlepong]

two_by_two, on 09 June 2011 - 05:31 PM, said:

I don't really believe in the "the Amyr are actually the bad guys theory", as there seems vastly more evidence stacked against it than for it, but that does seem rather damning.

I think part of the story is that there's precious little evidence for either.  They're renowned for the wrongs they righted and infamous for their crimes, but there's no data.  That they burned Caluptena isn't damning.  Those folks were probably screwing with dark forces better left alone.  It just suggests that they wouldn't foster a University and a bunch of Arcanists; particularly so a bunch of them could go crazy or drop out.

Galactus, on 09 June 2011 - 05:43 PM, said:

I don't think the Amyr are "the" bad guys, but rather a faction opposed to the bad guys that nonetheless isn't "good".

Their entire "Anything for the Greater Good, and screw how many Gue'la die to get it". thing doesen't exactly sound heroic.

Word.  Bast says something similar about the Sithe: "You don't understand them at all if you use the term 'good intentions.'"

You know what's funny though?

But I couldn't have been more stunned if she had written a hymn praising the Duke of Gibea.^WMFc73
compared to his as gently as I could defense of said Duke to Simmon in chapter 41

[Gaston de Foix]

In search of a missing King.

I'm working on a post on that much-discussed topic: the identity of the King in the Kingkiller Chroniclers.

It's taking a bit of time because I'm going back to re-read the many insightful contributions people have made on earlier versions of this thread.

As an aside, embarrassingly my first contribution on the WMF discussion thread was to rubbish the claim that Meluan Lackless could be Kvothe's aunt. Hehe.

One of the ideas I want to road-test is the extent to which Rothfuss has, in terms of plot, deliberately subverted convention.

Much of Rothfuss' originality lies in playing around with genre tropes.

But one of the abiding feelings I've been coming away with from WMF is a certain obviousness in plot in the narrated story. The frame story for what it's worth is wholly unpredictable.  

I'll give you three examples of obviousness.

(1) Caudicus poisoning the Maer (Ch.59, Purpose).
(2) the identity of the ailing girl in the inn as Denna (Ch.147, Debts)
(3) the graceful man in the woods being Cinder (Ch. 91, Flame, Thunder, Broken Tree)


Three examples of situations where the plot took me entirely by surprise

(1) Kvothe playing music for Vashet instead of using the mommet he made of her (ch.129, When Words Fail
(2) Bast engineering the entire situation with the two mercenaries (Ch. 152, Elderberry)
(3) pretty much everything about the Ctaeth (ch. 144, the Cthaeh).

it's easy to see where I am going with this.

It is I think reasonable to conclude (1) a King was killed (2) he was killed at Imre (3) by Kvothe (4) using magic (5) and subsequently Kvothe became infamous for this act.

The biggest difficulty with Roderic Calanthis or any body else being the King in question is why the King would be in Imre.

To be fair, in the Kingkiller Chronicles, this is not an insuperable objection. The focus is on other things than achieving a verisimilitude of medieval Kingship.

Roderic could be a lover of music who rode with some gentlemen from Court to hear a particularly famous musician play. He could have come in search of his daughter, last seen in the company of a red haired musician, hoping to avoid a marriage to Ambrose Jakis.

Purely in terms of plot, do you think Ambrose being the King would be completely obvious? Or is it just that we know the books more well than an average reader might be expected to?

Edited by Gaston de Foix, 11 June 2011 - 03:00 PM.

[GM Pierce]

Gaston de Foix, on 11 June 2011 - 02:59 PM, said:

In search of a missing King.

I'm working on a post on that much-discussed topic: the identity of the King in the Kingkiller Chroniclers.

It's taking a bit of time because I'm going back to re-read the many insightful contributions people have made on earlier versions of this thread.

As an aside, embarrassingly my first contribution on the WMF discussion thread was to rubbish the claim that Meluan Lackless could be Kvothe's aunt. Hehe.

One of the ideas I want to road-test is the extent to which Rothfuss has, in terms of plot, deliberately subverted convention.

Much of Rothfuss' originality lies in playing around with genre tropes.

But one of the abiding feelings I've been coming away with from WMF is a certain obviousness in plot in the narrated story. The frame story for what it's worth is wholly unpredictable.  

I'll give you three examples of obviousness.

(1) Caudicus poisoning the Maer (Ch.59, Purpose).
(2) the identity of the ailing girl in the inn as Denna (Ch.147, Debts)
(3) the graceful man in the woods being Cinder (Ch. 91, Flame, Thunder, Broken Tree)


Three examples of situations where the plot took me entirely by surprise

(1) Kvothe playing music for Vashet instead of using the mommet he made of her (ch.129, When Words Fail
(2) Bast engineering the entire situation with the two mercenaries (Ch. 152, Elderberry)
(3) pretty much everything about the Ctaeth (ch. 144, the Cthaeh).

it's easy to see where I am going with this.

It is I think reasonable to conclude (1) a King was killed (2) he was killed at Imre (3) by Kvothe (4) using magic (5) and subsequently Kvothe became infamous for this act.

The biggest difficulty with Roderic Calanthis or any body else being the King in question is why the King would be in Imre.

To be fair, in the Kingkiller Chronicles, this is not an insuperable objection. The focus is on other things than achieving a verisimilitude of medieval Kingship.

Roderic could be a lover of music who rode with some gentlemen from Court to hear a particularly famous musician play. He could have come in search of his daughter, last seen in the company of a red haired musician, hoping to avoid a marriage to Ambrose Jakis.

Purely in terms of plot, do you think Ambrose being the King would be completely obvious? Or is it just that we know the books more well than an average reader might be expected to?

The Maer and Ambrose have one thing in common. Each of them use other people to get what they want. The long section where the Maer speaks of "delegated power" and the series of attacks by Ambrose may even establish a preferred mode of action for the nobility of Vintas. The whole 'delegated power' thing may be an elaborate example of Chekhov's law.

Whoever was killed  at Imre need not have been a king. He may have been sent by the king. and the king may have been killed later but not at Imre.

[Zizoz]

Well, it would appear we have a new thread.