The Wise Man's Fear V [Spoilers and speculation within]

[Spaceman Hobbes]

Something fun I just noticed, after the fire in the Fishery Kilven asks Kvothe if he knows what 'Chan Vaen edan Kote' means. Kvothe says something about seven years, but he doesn't know what Kote means. Kilven then tells us it means to expect a disaster every seven years.

Chan Vaen means seven years, Abenthy tells Kvothe's father that Chan means seven in their conversation about the Chandarian. Therefore Kote, the name Kvothe picks for himself after his adventures, means disaster.

[The Warmth of Winter]

Something fun I just noticed, after the fire in the Fishery Kilven asks Kvothe if he knows what 'Chan Vaen edan Kote' means. Kvothe says something about seven years, but he doesn't know what Kote means. Kilven then tells us it means to expect a disaster every seven years.

Chan Vaen means seven years, Abenthy tells Kvothe's father that Chan means seven in their conversation about the Chandarian. Therefore Kote, the name Kvothe picks for himself after his adventures, means disaster.

Not to put you down or anything, since it was well noticed, but this has been known for a pretty long time already. But as I said, well noticed.

[thistlepong]

Part I: (edited - the Shald has a king)

Chronicles and Cobblestones: Part I

Taking Regicides – It’s Hard to Kill a King in Imre

“You’re Kvothe.”

“Kvothe the Bloodless”

“I saw the place in Imre where you killed him. By the fountain. The cobblestones are all shathered.” He frowned and concentrated on the word. “

Shattered.

They say no one can mend them.”

-NotW ch. 3 (kl740)

So says the sandy haired well dressed traveler. He doesn't recognize Kvothe Kingkiller. The individual referenced is unlikely to be the titular king or any king.

There's no monarch within hundreds of miles of Imre. The Commonwealth has no king. It has been pointed out that Maershon Lerand Alveron cannot be any of the mysterious players because his court responsibilities don't allow long voyages. This holds doubly true for the High King of Modeg and the kings of Atur, Vintas, and the Shald. The rulers of the Small Kingdoms may travel, but they should be as obscure and irrelevant to the story as they are in the story. In other words, it’s unlikely a regicide will occur in Imre due to a dearth of targets.

Kvothe's trial is an unlikely referent. Two full written accounts exist along with multiple witnesses and Kvothe's own version mentions no shattered stones. That Ambrose Jakis could both be in Imre and be king requires dreadful convenience. Eleven peers stand between him and the throne, including his father, all of whom must die without him being summoned back to Vintas. The news of his coronation in absentia or impending inheritance needs to reach him at the University concurrent with the mortal conclusion of his rivalry with Kvothe. Extremely improbable.

“It wasn’t called Folly, either. It was Kaysera, the poet-killer.”

-WMFhc p. 21 (kl537)

This should be obvious, but the blade that kills a king is probably not the poet killer unless it was so first.

Part II (also hidden for convenience)

Chronicles and Cobblestones: Part II

I’ve Got a Feelin’ – Painful Memories

The following quotes, in order, made me wonder just how bad things where.

“To the King?” Aaron Said.

“No,” the innkeeper said, his voice surprisingly firm. He held up his glass. “To old friends who deserved better than they got.”

-WMF hc p.141 (kl2935)

That night, and for many to come, Wil and Sim took turns watching over me as I slept, keeping me safe with their Alar. They were the best sort of friends. The sort everyone hopes for but no one deserves, least of all me.

-WMF hc p. 198 (kl4128)

I saw Fela turn her head to look at Simmon, almost as if she were surprised to see him sitting there.

No, it was almost as if up until that point, he’d just been occupying space around her, like a piece of furniture. But this time when she looked at him, she took all of him in. His sandy hair, the line of his jaw, the span of his shoulders beneath his shirt. This time when she looked, she actually

saw

him.

Let me say this. It was worth the the whole awful, irritating time spent searching the Archives just to watch that moment happen. It was worth the blood and the fear of death to see her fall in love with him. Just a little. Just the first faint breath of love, so light she probably didn’t notice it herself. It wasn’t dramatic, like some bolt of lightning with a crack of thunder following. It was more like when flint strikes steel and the spark fades almost too fast for you to see. But still, you know it’s there, down where you can’t see, kindling.

-WMF hc p. 225 (kl4665)

It read like three strokes paring the range of possibilities down to a single individual. Maybe everyone he’s ever known is dead. Maybe he feels responsible for many lives. But there’s a special sorrow for one in particular.

Rothfuss has said, “That’s my job as an author. It’s to sometimes break your heart. Joss Whedon knows this.” It appears in print and was repeated at the signing I attended. You can hear it for yourself in Sword and Laser Podcast #54 (@28:45.)

Understanding what he means, of course, depends on familiarity with Whedon’s work. The emotional stakes are always high, but rarely manipulative. The worst kind of tragedy in the story thus far is the fatal end to a perfect friendship. Paired, they pound at you.

Chronicles and Cobblestones: Part III

Limpin' ain't poesy - Verses versus

Strictly reading, Sim’s poetry gets more page time than Ambrose’s. Ambrose is known for writing poetry. Sim is a poet.

Ambrose, heir to a barony in Southern Vintas, attended the University by choice and worked his way to Re’lar. We know he’s a scriv who also studies alchemy and presumably rhetoric as well. He writes verse few, if any, care for. He struggles toward sprung rhythms and near rhymes. We’re shown one line of poetry and a page bearing several corrections and edits. He failed to win his talent pipes at the Eolian. He wants to write, but has no skill.

Simmon, the fourth son of the Duke of Dalonir in Northern Atur, was sent to the University in hopes he would become a diplomat. He discovered poetry and alchemy and entered the Arcanum. His first term as El’ir, Puppet read him some Eld Vintic poetry during their first meeting. For the next three terms he studied it under Chancellor Herma. At this point he can rattle off verse in the form carelessly; it’s presented in full twice. He’s accounted talented by those around him, even Kvothe.

[Kettricken]

Part I: (edited - the Shald has a king)

So says the sandy haired well dressed traveler. He doesn't recognize Kvothe Kingkiller. The individual referenced is unlikely to be the titular king or

Kvothe's trial is an unlikely referent. Two full written accounts exist along with multiple witnesses and Kvothe's own version mentions no shattered stones.

Rothfuss has said, “That’s my job as an author. It’s to sometimes break your heart. Joss Whedon knows this.” It appears in print and was repeated at the signing I attended.

Strictly reading, Sim’s poetry gets more page time than Ambrose’s. Ambrose is known for writing poetry. Sim is a poet.

Thistle - wow. That would be truly heart breaking if Kvothe kills Sim, and you have laid it out in a convincing way that it is foreshadowed... I could also add to your list that Sim is the only person we hear Kvothe tell that he loves him.

My reference to where the stones are shattered being the same location as where Kvothe called the wind for the first time begs the question of why the concurrence of locale for the 2 events (the Ambrose incident vs whatever he did that shattered the stones).

[Kzad-bhat]

Thistle - wow. That would be truly heart breaking if Kvothe kills Sim, and you have laid it out in a convincing way that it is foreshadowed... I could also add to your list that Sim is the only person we hear Kvothe tell that he loves him.

My reference to where the stones are shattered being the same location as where Kvothe called the wind for the first time begs the question of why the concurrence of locale for the 2 events (the Ambrose incident vs whatever he did that shattered the stones).

I can't imagine Kvothe killing Sim... and while he is a poet, he's not known as one.

[thistlepong]

Is there other support besides the coins that indicates the frame takes place in Vintas?

Newarre is 2 miles from an Oldstone bridge (NotW Ch1). The other Oldstone bridge we know of is on the Great Stone Road at Imre. Newarre is likely on the Great Stone Road, which doesn't go through Vintas. The king who is recruiting could be the king of Vintas and is paying in Vintish coin, but the closest section of the Great Stone Road to Vintas goes through Modeg north of Tinue. The war may have expanded the Vintas lands so Newarre is now in Vintas, but on our map the country would be labeled something else.

My theory is that Newarre is by the University and the two bridges are the same. It fits with Kote saying "They can't have made it this far west yet," and "I'd thought the mountains..." about the scrael. He speaks as if Newarre is far west of the mountains.

The Penitent King offering Vintic coin for military service is compelling evidence for his national identity. At least two Vintic hereditary lines have the plenary power to mint coins and their ranks are at least somewhat intertwined.

When Kvothe describes Stonebridge over the Omethi River he makes of point of saying they're scattered throughout civilization. It seems an odd descriptor if they only exist along one road. Kvothe's Sceop story also speaks includes a bit about the Amyr, in the time of the Aturan Empire being held blameless even if they broke old stone bridges. /shrug

Other incidental evidence includes the general attitude of the townsfolk toward both demons and Tehlu's angels: creatures from stories, not their lives. The mispronunciation of Amauray speaks to a distance greater than 70 miles since the folk of Trebon pronounce it correctly.

The two big ranges are the Shalda Mountains and the Stormwal. Smaller, lower ranges appear to be scattered about. And it seems like an incredible feat for Vintas to conquer all the way to the University in two years. It's kind of a Springfield problem, though.

[Sylvester]

Thistle-Cool research, thanks! Nevertheless, I can't quite agree with you on the fact that Sim is the king he kills. Here's why:

-Let's assume Sim does become king. He's Aturan isn't he? Well, isn't the ruler of Atur called an emperor and not a king?

-Then, like you proved it just above, Kvothe is in hiding in Vintas, and Vintas is where he's wanted dead or alive, isn't it? So to me, that means the king he kills (and who is replaced by the Penitent King) is king of Vintas, whereas Sim is Aturan...

-Next, you say that the reference to Imre is the description of the Kingkilling. Well, I guess that's a plausible enough interpretation, but why would the cobblestones be shattered by a mere king? To me, it indicates a supernatural power at hand, and Sim certainly doesn't have any special powers.

-Then, I think, the most solid argument: why would Kvothe want to kill Sim? He perhaps has reasons to kill Ambrose (although I don't entirely approve of that theory), and to return to my pet theory which I presented a few pages earlier, the Maer (or someone else) could certainly have commanded him to kill the actual Vintas king...Doesn't Kvothe often refer to the Maer's ruthlessness? (remember the gibbet scene and the decision to cut Caudicus's hands)

-You make it appear like when Kvothe speaks of Sim, he feels remorse/regret at his loss. I just think that he feels nostalgy towards a friend which he will probably never see again, and who showed him real friendship.

-When PR speaks of breaking the reader's heart, I was thinking more of Denna, but that's open to interpretation

Although it's of course possible that Sim will die, but I don't think that Kvothe kills him, or that becomes king.

[thistlepong]

Thistle-Cool research, thanks! Nevertheless, I can't quite agree with you on the fact that Sim is the king he kills.

Point of Interest: Part I addresses why the fella dying in Imre probably isn't the titular king, or any king... There's no good reason for a king to be there.

The ruler of Atur is a king (NotW c37.)

[Sylvester]

Point of Interest: Part I addresses why the fella dying in Imre probably isn't the titular king, or any king... There's no good reason for a king to be there.

The ruler of Atur is a king (NotW c37.)

-Ok, thanks for clarifying, I didn't quite understand your reasoning, I thought you were showing that Ambrose couldn't be in Imre, whereas Sim could. Any ideas about who would be killed in Imre then? Cinder? Bredon? Denna's patron? (if he's not one of the former, which I think he is)

-Ok, the king/emperor business was one I was unsure of, as I currently lended my copies of the books, and all I could remember was EmeperorNalto's edict, but I guess that was before the downfall of the Aturan Empire, which then became a kingdom, right?

But my other points still stand, don't they? (but for how long?^^)

[Kzad-bhat]

The Penitent King offering Vintic coin for military service is compelling evidence for his national identity. At least two Vintic hereditary lines have the plenary power to mint coins and their ranks are at least somewhat intertwined.

When Kvothe describes Stonebridge over the Omethi River he makes of point of saying they're scattered throughout civilization. It seems an odd descriptor if they only exist along one road. Kvothe's Sceop story also speaks includes a bit about the Amyr, in the time of the Aturan Empire being held blameless even if they broke old stone bridges. /shrug

Other incidental evidence includes the general attitude of the townsfolk toward both demons and Tehlu's angels: creatures from stories, not their lives. The mispronunciation of Amauray speaks to a distance greater than 70 miles since the folk of Trebon pronounce it correctly.

The two big ranges are the Shalda Mountains and the Stormwal. Smaller, lower ranges appear to be scattered about. And it seems like an incredible feat for Vintas to conquer all the way to the University in two years. It's kind of a Springfield problem, though.

I think in his first description of the bridges Kvothe implies they are built throughout the land... If they were specifically on one road, I think that would have been stated.

I hadn't thought about the Vintas coin thing, but the fact that Maer's ability to mint his own coins was specifically pointed out implies it may come up in the future...

Let's assume the Vintas king is the one Kvothe kills... possible inheritors

Prince of Vintas... not sure if this guy exists, I don't think we've been formally introduced to the royal family. Logically, he's the next successor. Easy for him to be penitent if he feels his dad's death is his fault for whatever reason.

The Maer... Rothfuss went out of his was to introduce us to him... he's listed as in line for the throne, and seems like a very likely candidate. Also married a Lackless who is in line for the throne, further bolstering his claim.

Meluan Lackless's husband... there has already been an attempt on the Maer's life... it's possible he dies. Possibly Penitent because she already has a son who will inherit.

Princess Ariel's husband... she is possibly Auri, and most likely the daughter of the king... I'd assume a noble who marries her would become king (assuming there is no crown prince) upon the death of the king. It's quite possibly there is a political marriage to bolster claims... this is the only way I can see for Ambrose to become king (whether he is the king Kvothe slays or the king he refuses to drink to is yet to be seen).

There is also a question about the current war being fought... it is not against the Fae or demons (at least it does not seem that way, as the town folk have no idea what the scrael are, and are willing to join the fight, which seems unlikely to happen if they are fighting demons)

Most likely in my mind is a civil war... possibly between the Penitent king and the Maer.

I'm actually not sure who else would be fighting in a war. It could be Vintas vs. Aturans, but I'm not sure how Kvothe could cause that.

The simplest explanation is that Kvothe kills the current king and creates a succession war.

[AverageGuy]

Let's assume the Vintas king is the one Kvothe kills... possible inheritors

The Maer...

Meluan Lackless's husband...

These are the same person. Did you mean Meluan herself? Sim did say she is in the line of succession, ahead of Ambrose.

[thistlepong]

AverageGuy, I'm not sure what he means, but the peerage we know about is thus:

NotW c43

The Royal Family

The Prince Regents

Maershon Lerand Alveron

Duchess Samista

Aculeus and Meluan Lackless

WMF c6

The Surthen Family (deceased)

so...

King Roderic Calanthis

(Queen)

(Heir - underage/unavailable)

Prince Regent (name unknown)

Prince Regent Alaitis (deceased)

Maershon Lerand Alveron

Duchess Samista

Aculeus Lackless

Meluan Lackless

Surthen patriarch (deceased)

Surthen matriarch (deceased)

Surthen heir (deceased)

(missing info)

(missing info)

Baron Jakis

Ambrose Jakis

The missing folks might be kicking around in the text. There were three Surthens 'cause their death moved Ambrose up three spots. The Calanthis heir is underage or absent evidenced by the presence of prince regents.

Edit:

The two missing folks are either prince regents, members of the royal family, or located between Meluan and Jakis.

[Kzad-bhat]

These are the same person. Did you mean Meluan herself? Sim did say she is in the line of succession, ahead of Ambrose.

No, I mean her replacement husband. If the Maer dies, and she re-marries, it would create a new possible king, as she is high in line succession-wise.

[thistlepong]

-Ok, thanks for clarifying, I didn't quite understand your reasoning, I thought you were showing that Ambrose couldn't be in Imre, whereas Sim could. Any ideas about who would be killed in Imre then? Cinder? Bredon? Denna's patron? (if he's not one of the former, which I think he is)

Clue Style: Kvothe kills Simmon in Imre with Saicere. It's a monster argument. Thus, parts. The text is pregnant with support. Which I'll present as time permits.

The rest of your questions seemed predicated on the notion that Sim was the king, killed; or some other misrepresentation of my argument.

I like Bredon for Denna's patron. I also like him for Aculeus Lackless, but there's little to support that.

[Kzad-bhat]

Clue Style: Kvothe kills Simmon in Imre with Saicere. It's a monster argument. Thus, parts. The text is pregnant with support. Which I'll present as time permits.

The rest of your questions seemed predicated on the notion that Sim was the king, killed; or some other misrepresentation of my argument.

I like Bredon for Denna's patron. I also like him for Aculeus Lackless, but there's little to support that.

I agree with the speculation that Sim dies... I'm not convinced that Kvothe kills him. The only real link I see connecting Sim's death with Kvothe's hand is the confusion about the name of the sword... I think he would have had a different reaction to finding out his sword was "The Poet Killer" had he slain Sim.

It's interesting speculation though. It will be interesting to read the final book and see what was foreshadowing and what was just random bits of storytelling.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

I also like him for Aculeus Lackless, but there's little to support that.

Well then it's time to make up some support. Bredon takes a personal interest in Kvothe. Maybe for the reason he states, or maybe because Kvothe description reminds him of Natalie and that damnable Ruh she ran off with. So he shows up and gets to know Kvothe. He decides that his hunch is correct and gives Kvothe the silver ring, identifying them as equals. Maybe to screw with people, or maybe because he thinks Kvothe is his long lost nephew/grandson making them equals.

I'll try to keep an eye out for more support as I reread, but isn't their a reference to the Lackless heir ignoring his duties? And if that's the case, Bredon, by avoiding Vintish politicking, is shirking his duties as heir?

[AverageGuy]

No, I mean her replacement husband. If the Maer dies, and she re-marries, it would create a new possible king, as she is high in line succession-wise.

Ah, that makes sense. Depends on how marriage and royalty work in Vintas, though, whether he'd just be a consort.

I also like him for Aculeus Lackless, but there's little to support that.

Who's Aculeus Lackless again? Meluan's father?

[Spaceman Hobbes]

Or brother, I don't think their relationship is actually mentioned in the text. They're just on Sim's list of people in line for the throne.

[AverageGuy]

Or brother, I don't think their relationship is actually mentioned in the text. They're just on Sim's list of people in line for the throne.

Meluan's supposed to be the sole heir after Netalia ran away, so I don't think it's a sibling.

[Board_Drifter]

The original title for "The Name of the Wind" was

"Circle of Firelight: Book One of Kvothe the Bloodless"