408 replies to this topic

[Kmmontandon]

P. 737 of TWMF, Vashet telling Kvothe about her background:

Quote

"And I spent four years as bodyguard and captain for a poet in the Small Kingdoms who also happened to be a king."

Just thought I'd note that, no idea if it'll become relevant.

Edited by Kmmontandon, 17 May 2011 - 09:01 PM.

[tze]

Dune, on 17 May 2011 - 01:01 PM, said:

Well then it's time to make up some support. Bredon takes a personal interest in Kvothe. Maybe for the reason he states, or maybe because Kvothe description reminds him of Natalie and that damnable Ruh she ran off with. So he shows up and gets to know Kvothe. He decides that his hunch is correct and gives Kvothe the silver ring, identifying them as equals. Maybe to screw with people, or maybe because he thinks Kvothe is his long lost nephew/grandson making them equals.

I think grandfather makes the most sense, since Meluan is the only heir and "Bredon" certainly hasn't been disowned (since he's hanging around the Maer's court, after all).    

Here's a bit of info that I haven't seen brought up yet, which I think supports the Aculeus Lackless = Master Bredon theory: in TWMF, when Kvothe is reading the slanderous family accounts:

Quote

"Even Bredon made an appearance. He was said to conduct pagan rituals in the secluded woods outside his northern estates."

Not necessarily dispositive, but as both the "Bredon" and "Lackless" lands are in the north of Vint, it makes sense that Bredon = Lackless.

[Banjo Fiend]

tze, on 17 May 2011 - 09:46 PM, said:

I think grandfather makes the most sense, since Meluan is the only heir and "Bredon" certainly hasn't been disowned (since he's hanging around the Maer's court, after all).    

Here's a bit of info that I haven't seen brought up yet, which I think supports the Aculeus Lackless = Master Bredon theory: in TWMF, when Kvothe is reading the slanderous family accounts:



Not necessarily dispositive, but as both the "Bredon" and "Lackless" lands are in the north of Vint, it makes sense that Bredon = Lackless.

Speaking of those pagan rituals, I think Bredon has some sort of connection to the Fae. When we first meet Bredon and he gives Kvothe a bag of rings, Bredon says, "These are yours without obligation, let, or lien. A freely given gift." Thats the exact same phrase Bast used about the holly crown he gives to Chronicler.

[unJon]

Oh, nice catches tze and Banjo.

[Merihathor]

Banjo Fiend, on 17 May 2011 - 10:48 PM, said:

Speaking of those pagan rituals, I think Bredon has some sort of connection to the Fae. When we first meet Bredon and he gives Kvothe a bag of rings, Bredon says, "These are yours without obligation, let, or lien. A freely given gift." Thats the exact same phrase Bast used about the holly crown he gives to Chronicler.

I had a double-take with this scene and his words, such that I had to go look up the other scene with this phrase to compare them and make sure I wasn't imagining what I had read :-) I've wondered why the phrase was used with the rings. I can understand the crown, as it's a talisman, but the rings are less so (unless you count them as talismans of reputation). Both items were crafted for a purpose, as well, but... Anyway, I've wondered why Bredon said that to him.

I also think, in response to earlier comments, that Bredon is possibly Denna's patron. I also happen to wonder if he's Selitos as well, but not everyone has to be someone important, so... Regardless, this would be an interesting twist in my opinion if he turns out to be her patron, Selitos *and* a Lackless, as well. Selitos appears to be "good" in the stories, but if he's Bredon and Denna's patron, then he's playing a very good game at deception. Then again, beating Denna and yet appearing as a kindly gentleman to Kvothe might serve a greater purpose. Aaaand, I'm going in circles; I'll stop now.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

Alright more conjecture on the Bredon thing. Just because a boy with red hair sort of looks like your long lost daughter/sister shows up, it doesn't mean that he's her son. However, what if your family has a quirky genetic trait? Something that is almost unnoticeable unless you spend sometime with the person.

Kvothe's eyes and their ever changing color are constantly mentioned, and thus far, haven't really played an important role. Kvothe tells Denna that he gets them from his mother. So let's say that Kvothe's changing eye color is a Lackless family trait. So maybe Bredon is just interested in Kvothe and notices, or maybe Bredon here's a rumor about how the Mear's guests eyes change colors. Regardless he notices that Kvothe has Natalie's eyes.

EDIT: Does the Cteah say that Denna has been beaten by her patron more than once?

Edited by Dune, 17 May 2011 - 11:34 PM.

[Gaston de Foix]

Banjo Fiend, on 17 May 2011 - 10:48 PM, said:

Speaking of those pagan rituals, I think Bredon has some sort of connection to the Fae. When we first meet Bredon and he gives Kvothe a bag of rings, Bredon says, "These are yours without obligation, let, or lien. A freely given gift." Thats the exact same phrase Bast used about the holly crown he gives to Chronicler.

Tze, actually I think the separate mention of Bredon and the Lackless family is a compelling argument against Aculeus Lackless being Bredon. Bredon's separate mention in the gossip tales implies that his name at least is his own and he is a Vintish noble. As for the phrase, I always took it as a commonly used phrase in the Four Corners, nothing more. Nobody expresses any surprise when it is used.

You guys are nicely anticipating my long-promised and much delayed argument: The Missing Princess: Poets, Killers and Poet-Killers. It's coming I promise. Some points I was planning to make such as the identity of Aculeus Lackless have already come through. I will just make one preliminary point about this; the rhyme in NOTW refers to Lady Lackless specifically and in WMF Netalia Lackless is referred to as the 'eldest heir', but Meluan is considerd by all to be Lady Lackless in her own right. The identity of Aculeus as her father is thus difficult, unless, and I am coming towards this view, the Lackless family is matrilineal.

[thistlepong]

Dune, on 17 May 2011 - 11:32 PM, said:

EDIT: Does the Cteah say that Denna has been beaten by her patron more than once?

Implied: "He beats her, you know.  Her patron.  Not all the time, but often.”

grinachu, on 18 May 2011 - 01:47 AM, said:

I will just make one preliminary point about this; the rhyme in NOTW refers to Lady Lackless specifically and in WMF Netalia Lackless is referred to as the 'eldest heir', but Meluan is considerd by all to be Lady Lackless in her own right. The identity of Aculeus as her father is thus difficult, unless, and I am coming towards this view, the Lackless family is matrilineal.

Given Duchess Samista stands in line to the throne, it might be Vintic custom to ignore gender in the peerage.

EDIT: I suppose calling Aculeus Lackless "him" might also have been a derp error on my part.  

Banjo Fiend, on 17 May 2011 - 10:48 PM, said:

When we first meet Bredon and he gives Kvothe a bag of rings, Bredon says, "These are yours without obligation, let, or lien. A freely given gift." Thats the exact same phrase Bast used about the holly crown he gives to Chronicler.

Good eyes.

Merihathor, on 17 May 2011 - 11:32 PM, said:

I also think, in response to earlier comments, that Bredon is possibly Denna's patron. I also happen to wonder if he's Selitos as well, but not everyone has to be someone important, so... Regardless, this would be an interesting twist in my opinion if he turns out to be her patron, Selitos *and* a Lackless, as well. Selitos appears to be "good" in the stories, but if he's Bredon and Denna's patron, then he's playing a very good game at deception. Then again, beating Denna and yet appearing as a kindly gentleman to Kvothe might serve a greater purpose. Aaaand, I'm going in circles; I'll stop now.

From what I’ve seen of your posts, this must twist your brain in wild knots.  I find it difficult not to see the story figures in the present folk.

I haven’t thought too much about this, but I’ll throw it out.  The Aturan Empire has strong relationships with the figures Tehlu and the Amyr, spreading their ethos and making their stories common knowledge throughout the Four Corners.  Among the nations the Empire converted was Vint, with Lockless influence ascendant.  It’s possible, then, that Vint and the Lockless had associations with the opposing force: Faen and/or the Seven.

Edited by thistlepong, 18 May 2011 - 11:10 AM.

[Kettricken]

thistlepong, on 18 May 2011 - 07:47 AM, said:

Given Duchess Samista stands in line to the throne, it might be Vintic custom to ignore gender in the peerage.

EDIT: I suppose calling Aculeus Lackless "him" might also have been a deep error on my part.  

I just want to throw out that it was mentioned (by Caudicus, I believe) that Netalia Lackless was disinherited after running off, so no crown for Kvothe that way...

[lanceschaubert]

sorry it's taken so long, gang. I don't have time this week, but as soon as finals are over, I've got a HUGE breakthrough of situational evidence that Yllish story knots are magical. I think I've discovered one of Pat's main sources. At least, it fits.

More next week!

[Kzad-bhat]

lanceschaubert, on 18 May 2011 - 03:03 PM, said:

sorry it's taken so long, gang. I don't have time this week, but as soon as finals are over, I've got a HUGE breakthrough of situational evidence that Yllish story knots are magical. I think I've discovered one of Pat's main sources. At least, it fits.

More next week!

Interesting... some off the cuff speculation in regards to your point.

1. Denna asks about writing down magic... she's been researching things "they don't know about in the university" and that is the only thing she has specifically asked about... thus she knows they don't know about it.
2. She seems to have a magical ability to make men fall madly in love with her, and has Yllish knots saying "love" in her hair (that she is constantly tying and retying).
3. Possible Yllish knots on the Lackless box keeping it closed... would logically be some sort of spell.

[williamjm]

grinachu, on 18 May 2011 - 01:47 AM, said:

Tze, actually I think the separate mention of Bredon and the Lackless family is a compelling argument against Aculeus Lackless being Bredon. Bredon's separate mention in the gossip tales implies that his name at least is his own and he is a Vintish noble.

I was thinking the same, Bredon might have some secret identity but I think it would require a fairly convoluted theory to explain why people in Vint who can surely recognise senior members of the nobility don't call him Aculeus if he's actually Aculeus.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

williamjm, on 18 May 2011 - 03:26 PM, said:

I was thinking the same, Bredon might have some secret identity but I think it would require a fairly convoluted theory to explain why people in Vint who can surely recognise senior members of the nobility don't call him Aculeus if he's actually Aculeus.

It's a nickname or middle name. His father was also named Aculeus, and everyone decided that his middle name of Bredon was more dignifying than Junior. Besides, I don't think him and Kvothe ever interact with a third person(aside from his servants). And I don't think that Kvothe mentions him to anyone else in the Maer's court. I could be wrong though.

Anyway I'm about to reread WMF. Hopefully I can pull a crazy theory out of thin air on my way through.

Edited by Dune, 18 May 2011 - 07:50 PM.

[Kzad-bhat]

Dune, on 18 May 2011 - 07:43 PM, said:

It's a nickname or middle name. His father was also named Aculeus, and everyone decided that his middle name of Bredon was more dignifying than Junior. Besides, I don't think him and Kvothe ever interact with a third person(aside from his servants). And I don't think that Kvothe mentions him to anyone else in the Maer's court. I could be wrong though.

Anyway I'm about to reread WMF. Hopefully I can pull a crazy theory out of thin air on my way through.

Bredon could be anyone... although Kvothe would have to be intentionally keeping that part a mystery for it to make sense that he hadn't mentioned it... He is Ruh to his core though, so maybe it's just a storytelling trick.

His pride in the Edema Ruh blood makes me think he might have a different dad and not be Ruh at all.

Also, I'm sure this has been mentioned, but when he promises not to find out who Denna's patron is, he swears on his name, his power and his good left hand... three things Kote seems to be missing... at least I think he has an injured left hand... I'll have to double check in NOTW.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

Kzad-bhat, on 18 May 2011 - 08:49 PM, said:

Bredon could be anyone... although Kvothe would have to be intentionally keeping that part a mystery for it to make sense that he hadn't mentioned it... He is Ruh to his core though, so maybe it's just a storytelling trick.

His pride in the Edema Ruh blood makes me think he might have a different dad and not be Ruh at all.

Also, I'm sure this has been mentioned, but when he promises not to find out who Denna's patron is, he swears on his name, his power and his good left hand... three things Kote seems to be missing... at least I think he has an injured left hand... I'll have to double check in NOTW.

It's never explicitly stated that there is something wrong with his left hand, however it's a really popular theory.

I almost wonder if PR wants us all to hate Denna because everything is her stupid fault in the end. It would explain why he made her so goddamn annoying....

[thistlepong]

Kettricken, on 18 May 2011 - 11:27 AM, said:

I just want to throw out that it was mentioned (by Caudicus, I believe) that Netalia Lackless was disinherited after running off, so no crown for Kvothe that way...

I’d say Aculeus is a parent (or grandparent I suppose)…

…how can a family thrive when the eldest heir forsakes all family duty? (8647)

I’d started a second bottle of wine by the time I read that young Netalia Lackless had run away with a troupe of traveling performers.  Her parents had disowned her, of course, leaving Meluan the only heir to the Lackless lands. (10053)

One isn’t an heir to something one is sovereign over.

Who said anything about a crown?

williamjm, on 18 May 2011 - 03:26 PM, said:

I was thinking the same, Bredon might have some secret identity but I think it would require a fairly convoluted theory to explain why people in Vintas[ who can surely recognise senior members of the nobility don't call him Aculeus if he's actually Aculeus.

I did say there wasn’t really evidence for it
Nothing but tenuous impressions and oddities.  Of course, Kvothe is a kept poet and Aculeus is somewhere between 5^th and 10^th in line for the throne.

Kzad-bhat, on 18 May 2011 - 08:49 PM, said:

Also, I'm sure this has been mentioned, but when he promises not to find out who Denna's patron is, he swears on his name, his power and his good left hand... three things Kote seems to be missing... at least I think he has an injured left hand... I'll have to double check in NOTW.

Khaz, this is actually pretty well developed in previous threads.  They can be fun to read, but you can also search for “good left hand” to get a quick look.  I think you’d enjoy it.

Dune, on 18 May 2011 - 09:01 PM, said:

I almost wonder if PR wants us all to hate Denna because everything is her stupid fault in the end. It would explain why he made her so goddamn annoying....

She’s not annoying.  She’s thoughtful, ambitious, clever, caring, and talented.  Why would anyone ever hate her?

[Merihathor]

Dune, on 18 May 2011 - 09:01 PM, said:

I almost wonder if PR wants us all to hate Denna because everything is her stupid fault in the end. It would explain why he made her so goddamn annoying....

Really? I like her quite a bit, although I get frustrated at the lack of communication between her and Kvothe at times.

[Kettricken]

thistlepong, on 19 May 2011 - 08:54 AM, said:

I’d say Aculeus is a parent (or grandparent I suppose)…

…how can a family thrive when the eldest heir forsakes all family duty? (8647)

I’d started a second bottle of wine by the time I read that young Netalia Lackless had run away with a troupe of traveling performers.  Her parents had disowned her, of course, leaving Meluan the only heir to the Lackless lands. (10053)

One isn’t an heir to something one is sovereign over.

Who said anything about a crown?

Sorry, I shorthanded a bit; folks have sort of speculated that the king Kvothe may have killed was himself.  I was just pointing out that his mom was disinherited, so he couldn't be an heir.

And, Merihathor, that is totally my feeling about Denna as well.  Don't really get people hating on her.  Frustrated at, yes!

Edited by Kettricken, 19 May 2011 - 09:54 AM.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

Merihathor, on 19 May 2011 - 09:18 AM, said:

Really? I like her quite a bit, although I get frustrated at the lack of communication between her and Kvothe at times.

Hates the wrong word. Frustrated is probably better. IDK, the more I read the books, the more I think to myself, 'Damn Kvothe, you should have gone for Fela.'

Although I her constant proximity to Kvothe seems forced at times. Constantly being in Imre makes sense. Showing up at a wedding just outside of Imre makes sense. Showing up on the other side of the world simply because that's where the protagonist is felt forced.

Unless of course her patron is Amry....

[Banjo Fiend]

What is Kvothe's heart's desire that he has to trick a demon to get and battle an angel to keep? At first I assumed it was Denna but as the story has gone along, that doesnt make much sense that he would have to battle an angel to keep her unless she's working for the Chandrian and does some bad stuff.

Another possibility are that Kvothe tells the Maer his burning question is "where are the Amyr". Perhaps he tricks a demon to find out where they are then battles an angel to get there.

What of the stone doors? Makes sense considering the title of the next book. Trick a demon to find out how to open a door, find its guarded by an angel, defeat angel, open door, unleash scrael et al upon the world.

I'm leaning to the last one. He's shown a penchant for desperately wanting knowledge right now whether its a good idea or not going back to his lessons with Abenthy.