The Wise Man's Fear V [Spoilers and speculation within]

[thistlepong]

RobMRobM, ASOIAF beat Tor to the theory (and the poem) by several days.

Heck, it's 'cause we've been taking it for granted for so long that I figured the primary alternative deserved some attention. Give it another look. It might surprise you.

[Gaston de Foix]

Kvothe's mother is Nathalie Lockless, not Denna.

The best evidence (as discussed in a brilliant post in the Tor.com re-read) is the "Tally" nonsense song that got Kvothe's mother mad enough to make Dad sleep under the wagon. Kvothe thinks it's just about the bad meter, but if you look at the last three lines and sound them out, you hear "no tally lot less - i.e., Nathalie Lockless. She's properly ticked off because Arliden is punning on her name in the nonsense song. For further proof, Kvothe knows his mother is from a noble family, so it all fits. On top of that, you have the mother scolding Kvothe for a rude Lady Lockless song in WMF, the mother makes clear that Lady Lockless is a real person, and tells Kvothe he can apologize to Lady Lockless and to her. Final point is to look at the poem of the bear baiting troop in WMF. There is a Lockless poem there too, and one of requirements is a son of the blood - which, no doubt, will be Kvothe.

Rob

Thistle knows all this- I think he's just trying to be contrary today...

the biggest problem with the theory on its own terms is that Meluan is older than Denna, yet it is the eldest heir that runs away.

[thistlepong]

Thistle knows all this- I think he's just trying to be contrary today...

the biggest problem with the theory on its own terms is that Meluan is older than Denna, yet it is the eldest heir that runs away.

The "eldest heir forsakes all family responsibility," from the printed history Caudicus provides. Young Netalia was disowned, which was included in the rumor pile. But really, the strength of the argument lies with the lips, the skin, the face, the neck, the jaw, and the hair; which takes forever to compile.

[two_by_two]

The "eldest heir forsakes all family responsibility," from the printed history Caudicus provides. Young Netalia was disowned, which was included in the rumor pile. But really, the strength of the argument lies with the lips, the skin, the face, the neck, the jaw, and the hair; which takes forever to compile.

So, is it possible then that Aculeus Lackless is the "eldest heir" who has forsaken all family responsibility and Netalia is the youngest Lackless child, who ran away and was disowned? That would make Meluan the middle child. I can't find any reference in WMF upon a brief once-over regarding Meluan's place in the family Lackless. The closest I can find is that she is "beyond the king's control" (WMF 395, hardcover US edition).

EDIT: Whoops. I re-read the relevant section on the rumor pile and it turns out that Meluan is "the only heir to the Lackless lands." Who is Aculeus, then?

[Kylar Stern]

Posted this in the DoS thread but this one seems to be more active:

First time poster. What's Bast's agenda then?

Obviously he hired the two 'soldiers' to attack Kvothe but what were his intentions?

1) Them attack Kvothe to bring out his true self, with the knowledge that the soldiers would be killed.

2) As above but it failed so he went to kill them anyway to make sure they couldn't talk.

....Or does he have more sinister motives?

[Kettricken]

So, is it possible then that Aculeus Lackless is the "eldest heir" who has forsaken all family responsibility and Netalia is the youngest Lackless child, who ran away and was disowned? That would make Meluan the middle child. I can't find any reference in WMF upon a brief once-over regarding Meluan's place in the family Lackless. The closest I can find is that she is "beyond the king's control" (WMF 395, hardcover US edition).

EDIT: Whoops. I re-read the relevant section on the rumor pile and it turns out that Meluan is "the only heir to the Lackless lands." Who is Aculeus, then?

I would say that Aculeus is the father, therefore not the heir but the holder of the Lackless lands.

I am loving the Denna/Meluan speculation...I too noticed the stunning similarity in description of the two (red lips without need of paint, dark eyes, striking profile, and of course lovely). Maybe they have the same grandparents? Or maybe Netalia/Kvothe's mom had a daughter before running off with Arliden! Denna is said to be only a year or so older than Kvothe. As an aside, I agree that Meluan is described as being in her young or possibly mid 20s.

Am now pondering that Denna may not be an "escort"...but probably was a victim of rape at a young age. Again, stunning similarity pointed out with the dark haired girl Kvothe rescued from the false troupers...

[Spaceman Hobbes]

Alright, I just reread Kvothe's conversation with everyone favorite evil talking tree. Thoughts on this, specifically the joke Kvothe will eventually laugh about.

Referring to the Amyr

The Maer however is quite the extraordinary man. He's already come close to them, though he doesn't realize it. Stick by the Maer and he will lead you to their door.

Ok. In context Ferluian says earlier that there are not really any human Amyr. Those who claim to be are referred to as children dressing up as their parents. So, let's assume that Cthaeh isn't referring to the human order Amyr. This would mean that there is another non human order Amyr. Now the questions that arise are as follows.

1. Where are these Amyr? Haliax says that he keeps the seven safe from the Amyr. I think he does this by keeping them locked away(behind a door of stone, based on the quote and working day 3 title).

2. Where did the human Amyr come from? Once again Haliax is the answer. If you're going to secretly lock away powerful group of whatever the Amyr are, why not create another group, under the same name, to fill the void. You then manipulate events so they're above the law in one of the most powerful empires the world has ever seen, and they become a perfect tool.

3. How the hell does the Maer fit into Kvothe's search? It comes down to his taste in women. The Lackless are rumored to have a secret unopenable door on their most ancient of lands. The Maer has 'already come close to them... he will lead you to their door.' We're talking about a man who essentially is too important to travel. In fact, the only conceivable reason he would leave Severean is because he was visiting someone equally important. And we've been told that there are very few people as important as Alveron. His wife(and her father/brother) is one of them.

Everything that follows is extremely off the wall and crackpot. You've been warned.

The seven have been around for 5000 years. I think that this conflict dates back to the creation war. The war between 'old knowers' and 'shapers.' (I should note that I don't think namers are either). Hepse's story is an allegory. Jax represents the shapers, the old man the namers, and the unfolding house is the Fae realm the shapers create. The shapers seek mastery over the moon. They try to bring it into the Fae with them, and they're partly successful. So the moon shifts back and forth between the too, potentially causing human mortality for those who aren't shapers or old knowers.

As the shapers and the old knowers fight the shapers are eventually reduced to 6. After Lyra's death Larne seeks out the shapers to find mastery over death. One of the shapers promises Larne the power to bring her back. So Larne betrays the old knowers to the remaining shapers. Cinder double crosses Larne and binds Lyra's spirit to a tree, creating Cthaeh. Selitos organizes the remaining old knowers into the Amyr and curses Larne to serve the shapers forever(creating the Chandrian). Eventually the Chandrian lock the remaining old knowers behind door of stone. Selitos remains free, but to do so he locks his name(and maybe his power) in the Lackless box. He know is known as Skarpi.

The naming Kvothe does is the beginning step down the road to understanding or mastery. Because of the moon's movement through the sky the sleeping mind is hidden from most humans, and only a rare few have mastery over it. A true understanding of the moon(Auri) fully awakes the sleeping mind. Because of the moon's movement this will drive a person insane, so people with this understanding(Kvothe/Selitos/Elodin) lock the part of them away in a box. Unfortunately you can't just lock that part of you away, something else ends up going with it. In Kvothe's case it was his sympathy. In Elodin's a good part of his sanity.

And that's all for now. TL:DR version. Jax's unfolding house=the Faen. Lyra=Chtaeh. And Cinder is a massive dick for perpetuating this mess.

[williamjm]

EDIT: Whoops. I re-read the relevant section on the rumor pile and it turns out that Meluan is "the only heir to the Lackless lands." Who is Aculeus, then?

I think it's fairly clear from the passage you're referring to about Netalia's parents disowning her and leaving Meluan the only heir that Aculeus is Meluan and Netalia's parent and currently the head of the family. I don't think Aculeus' gender is ever mentioned so they could be either her father or mother.

ETA -

I am loving the Denna/Meluan speculation...I too noticed the stunning similarity in description of the two (red lips without need of paint, dark eyes, striking profile, and of course lovely). Maybe they have the same grandparents? Or maybe Netalia/Kvothe's mom had a daughter before running off with Arliden! Denna is said to be only a year or so older than Kvothe. As an aside, I agree that Meluan is described as being in her young or possibly mid 20s.

I guess it's also possible that Denna's an illegitimate daughter of Meluan/Netalia's father so she's their half-sister. It would explain the physical resemblance and an illegitimate daughter of a noble family could explain how Denna is apparently educated but lacking in resources or family.

On another subject while looking up what Caudicus said about the Lackless family, I noticed that he said he spent the winter staying with Baron Jakis. I can't remember if this was brought up before in the thread, if there's a strong connection between them it could imply that Caudicus was poisoning the Maer for Baron Jakis (which was certainly a strong possibility even if there wasn't such a direct connection between them).

[Damon]

Idle speculation with no evidence to support it.

Perhaps the University is the recruitment center for theAmyr. Only those students who measure up would get to go behind the secret door in the archives. Kvothe won't be one of those recruits; he is too willing to take morally ambiguous actions to further his own ends. The Amyr appear to exhibit a very rigid moral outlook, something like Kilvin and Wil.

If Ambrose is the king that Kvothe kills, then the Maer would already have to be dead, since he is closer in the line of succession than Ambrose. The Maer's death would need to happen after Kvothe and his aunt Meluan are reconciled and he gains access to the Lackless door if it is Ambrose. Also, wouldn't Kvothe have a more legitimate claim to the throne than Ambrose, through his mother Natalia?

I love the character of Auri. How did she know that Kvothe was suffering in his room at Anker's? Why did she leave the school to find and comfort him? Why does she suggest that her empathy for him comes from personal experience? Why is she not more bothered that he disappeared for almost a year to go to Vintas? What is her relationship to Elodin? Auri is a real goldmine of speculation, as well as being a fine character to read about. Patrick said his first version of the story did not include Auri, Devi or Ambrose. I am glad he took more time. Has anyone ever heard who the inspiration was for Auri?

Is Denna being trained in magic and ways of fighting by her patron? She talks about a way of writing that makes whoever reads it do the writer's will. Is it a way of writing Yllish? Do the bruises she received come from her combat training? Perhaps, like Kvothe, she has something in her past that is driving her to gain knowledge and power so that she can take revenge.

There are quite a few very powerful factions in Kvothe's world, the Chandrian, the Amyr, the Ademre, the Fae, University graduates with powerful magical abilities like naming or sympathy, yet the day to day people don't seem to live in a world where these factions effect them very much. How is that possible?

And why did so many spaces between words in my post disappear?

[two_by_two]

Posted this in the DoS thread but this one seems to be more active:

First time poster. What's Bast's agenda then?

Obviously he hired the two 'soldiers' to attack Kvothe but what were his intentions?

1) Them attack Kvothe to bring out his true self, with the knowledge that the soldiers would be killed.

2) As above but it failed so he went to kill them anyway to make sure they couldn't talk.

....Or does he have more sinister motives?

It seems fairly conclusive that Bast is fully in support of Kvothe. Here's a link to an earlier post in which is quoted a short story by PR in which Bast seems willing to give his life for Kvothe.

[Kettricken]

If Ambrose is the king that Kvothe kills, then the Maer would already have to be dead, since he is closer in the line of succession than Ambrose. The Maer's death would need to happen after Kvothe and his aunt Meluan are reconciled and he gains access to the Lackless door if it is Ambrose. Also, wouldn't Kvothe have a more legitimate claim to the throne than Ambrose, through his mother Natalia?

And why did so many spaces between words in my post disappear?

And why is your post in a different font than the rest of the thread? :)

Regarding Kvothe's place in line for the throne, his mother was disinherited after she ran off.

[williamjm]

Perhaps the University is the recruitment center for theAmyr. Only those students who measure upwould get to go behind the secret door in the archives. Kvothe won’t be one of those recruits; he istoo willing to take morally ambiguous actions to further his own ends. The Amyr appear to exhibit a very rigid moraloutlook, something like Kilvin and Wil.

I'm not sure I agree with the characterisation of the Amyr, there seem to be many suggestions that they're firm believers that the end justifies the means.

If Ambrose is the king that Kvothe kills, then the Maerwould already have to be dead, since he is closer in the line of successionthan Ambrose. The Maer’s death wouldneed to happen after Kvothe and his aunt Meluan are reconciled and he gainsaccess to the Lackless door if it is Ambrose. Also, wouldn’t Kvothe have a more legitimate claim to the throne thanAmbrose, through his mother Natalia?

Netalia was mentioned to have been disinherited (that's why Meluan's the sole heir), this would also disinherit any children she had so he's not in the line of succession. I suppose the Lackless family could undo that if they chose to, which would put Kvothe back in the line of succession, but Meluan's opinion of him will have to change a lot before that happens.

[Damon]

And why is your post in a different font than the rest of the thread? :)

Regarding Kvothe's place in line for the throne, his mother was disinherited after she ran off.

Excellent question. I typed it in Word and then pasted it! :rolleyes:

[Damon]

I'm not sure I agree with the characterisation of the Amyr, there seem to be many suggestions that they're firm believers that the end justifies the means.

Netalia was mentioned to have been disinherited (that's why Meluan's the sole heir), this would also disinherit any children she had so he's not in the line of succession. I suppose the Lackless family could undo that if they chose to, which would put Kvothe back in the line of succession, but Meluan's opinion of him will have to change a lot before that happens.

The reasons I think of the Amyr as morally rigid are based upon the story about the old man who goes from campfire to campfire, their blood soaked hands symbols as well as other descriptions of their actions. The Amyr don't appear to be much in the forgiving business, just the punishment business.

Bastardy could also be another reason Kvothe can't be the King of Vintas. It is possible that one of the reasons Kvothe becomes the Kingkiller is to avenge the systematic murder of his relatives so that someone can gain the throne.

[unJon]

Please, I hope Kvothe/Denna is not Luke/Leia. :sick:

[RobMRobM]

I have lots and lots of Denna theories - don't have time to lay them out in full here. Still, my best guess is she is a noble's daughter from around Analin, was seduced by someone a year or so before the start of the story (time frame from Deoch at Eolian), possibly someone from Yll (given her use of Yll knot techniques in her hair), and then was abandoned. She was cast out by her family and forced to rely on her musical talent, physical beauty and wits, to survive on the road. When Kvothe meets her, she is heading back to Analin to attempt a reconciliation, which does not succeed. (In the book she tells Kvothe she did not expect things to go well, and they did not.) The heartbreak of Kvothe is she loves him but he doesn't have sufficient money to give her security, or a family name that would give her an honorable marriage that would permit some level of normality with her family. Hence, the dance between them. She wants him but is afraid of the consequences of giving him all her heart. Of course, the parallels between Kvothe's parents and himself (troper falling in love with a noble's daughter) would make story sense.

My favorite wild theory these days, on another point, is that Skopi (from the bar in Tarbean) and Sceop (the beggar from Kvothe's Edema Ruh take in WMF) are the same person. The story notes the old beggar lived with the Ruh more many years and then left them (no mention of dying). The beggar also makes a comment that you need some fibs in stories, and Kvothe says several times his father took exactly the same position. Very possible that Sceop embedded that position in the Ruh or learned that from them. Also, it might explain how Skopi could call Kvothe by name in the bar without being introduced - he may have known him as a child. Note, of course, since the beggar story happened more than 300 years ago, Sceop/Skopi would have to be one of the superhuman races (Amyr, Fae, etc). Final interesting point is that in a discussion between Kvothe and Tempi in WMF, Kvothe says "I am not speaking" and one of the ademic word used is "scoepe". It could suggest, assuming common roots, that Scoep/Skopi is not the real name but just a term taken for convenience that means "speaker." Also, note that Lackless poem of the bear baiter child. He heard it on the streets. That's what Skopi's stragegy might be - tell stories with truth to the kids and hope the info will spread to those who can figure it out and make use of it.

Rob

[RobMRobM]

One other scarier Denna thought, by the way. Early in NOTW, Bast and Kvothe use a phrase in Temic that seems to imply the word denna may mean "glamour." Perhaps the Chandrians or Amyr know about Kvothe and have set a glamour trap - giving this girl near supernatural beauty and looking quite a bit like Kvothe's mother, to add to the allure. I doubt that's the case but the denna connection could be worth pursuing.

Rob

[Merihathor]

I have a huge post that talks about Skarpi, RobMRobM, if you'd care to read it (here).

[two_by_two]

We’ve discussed previously throughout the forums Pat’s use,accidental or deliberate, of other languages and roots of words. Some of thisdiscussion has focused on Elodin’s use of the word CYAERBASALIEN, whichmakes the wall break and collapse. I did a quick Google search for the variouschunks of the word and came up with some interesting things.

Caer translates from Spanish to fall,drop, tumble, and/or crumble (according to Google translate, so take that witha grain of salt). Basalt, obviously, is a common grey-black rock.Interestingly, the walls of the room Elodin was trapped in are described asdark grey. It may be possible that what Elodin said roughly translates to “Basalt,crumble!”

This brings me to another question, which may point to anothererratum in the books. In WMF, Elxa Dal says the name of fire, which Kvothehears simply as the word “Fire”. When he comments on it, Elxa Dal says, “It’s agood sign that you heard anything at all” (this is paraphrased because I don’thave my books with me). However, in NotW, when Kvothe hears Elodin speak aname, he hears the word CYAERBASALIEN, as I mentioned above.

Is it a sign of Kvothe’s growing power that he now hears the meaning behind theword as opposed to just the word itself, or is it better to hear the word as itis, whole and uninterpreted, or is this just another inconsistency between thebooks?

[thistlepong]

Some thoughts on the mirror painted on the vase at Haliax's feet:

Merihathor, I wanted to respond to this, but couldn't find the reference in either book. Can you point me to it? In any case I wanted to add Felurian's list of fae repelents:

She took my hand again. "many of the darker sort would love to use you for their sport. what keeps them from moonlit tresspass? iron, fire,

mirror-glass

. elm and ash and copper knives, solid-hearted farmer's wives who know the rules of games we play and give us bread to keep away. but most of all m people dread the portion of our power we shed when we set foot on mortal earth."

Please, I hope Kvothe/Denna is not Luke/Leia. :sick:

Seconded. Tidy. Anathema.

(hacked out from the larger post)

When Kvothe meets her, she is heading back to Analin to attempt a reconciliation, which does not succeed. (In the book she tells Kvothe she did not expect things to go well, and they did not.)

I keep wondering if the cock-up in Anilin that Kvothe's would be assassins mention had something to do with whatever didn't go well for Denna...

Is it a sign of Kvothe’s growing power that he now hears the meaning behind the word as opposed to just the word itself, or is it better to hear the word as it is, whole and uninterpreted, or is this just another inconsistency between the books?

Good question. The quote you’re seeking is ”Call it what you will. The fact that you heard me say anything is probably a good sign.” I may have to rescind my naysaying about the rings of stone, iron, amber, wood, and bone.

Taken a bit further, the first time he witnesses a name uttered, all he sees is Abenthy’s mouth move. Later he’ll hear something unintelligible. Then he’ll hear the word, like fire. For those things he understands the old word, the name.

So he’s getting closer to fire. He’s near stone, cyaerbasalien. And he has wind, aerlevsedi.

_{Interestingly enough, Sim hears wind when Elodin says aerlevsedi. He’s just full of surprises.}